the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

simple relay switch wiring


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
custum 
Member - Posts: 49
Member spacespace
Joined: June 25, 2014
Location: Australia
Posted: June 25, 2014 at 11:28 PM / IP Logged  
could you advise with the wiring of a relay (hella 4ra 003510-08) as the technicals explain, but skip over the switch placement.
Can you tell me simply the configuration to wire a relay, especially how a switch is wired to the relay, I think with the option to place before the relay gets power or in its normal mode please?.
I tried to wire the relay as per instructions but could not get it to function. (for my spotlights)
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: June 26, 2014 at 1:49 AM / IP Logged  
POS feed to switch.
Switch to 86
Ground (earth) to 85
Batt. fused 15 amps for fogs to 87.
To fogs from 30.
NEG feed to switch.
Switch to 85
Batt. fused at 15 amps to 86 and 87.
To fogs from 30.
custum 
Member - Posts: 49
Member spacespace
Joined: June 25, 2014
Location: Australia
Posted: June 26, 2014 at 3:08 AM / IP Logged  
OK, is that BATT pos to switch pos, to the neg to 86.
And Batt pos fused 15amps for light to 87.
Neg batt feed to neg switch.
Neg switch to 85 on same wire or 2 different wires.
Also to confuse things even more, the ability to use a 'dipper' or dim the lights is available when connected to the light system of car but what is it separate of that, can it be done with the rig so far.?
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: June 26, 2014 at 10:55 AM / IP Logged  
Sorry I think your last post has confused me even more.
Yes you can use a 5 pin, aka 87a or changeover relay, commonly use as a hi/lo beam switching device
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: June 26, 2014 at 12:47 PM / IP Logged  
I'd suggest a new feed for the lights,
Hence from battery+ thru a fuse self-resetting circuit breaker as near the battery as practical, and then to relay 30.
Then from 87 to the light(s).
85 to GND - ie, a good chassis GND point or screw etc else to batt- or some other ground wire. (The relay coil should consume 250mA (1/4 Amp) or less so its loading is negligible.)
86 is to your +12V switch that controls your spotlights - ie, the relay, so 86 to your switch which gets its +12V from whatever you need - ie, batt+ if you want them on anytime, else ACC or maybe IGN +12V, or from the headlight or park light circuit.
The switch's +12V should also be fused but you can use any existing fuse (lights, accessories, etc) provided the switch wiring is rated higher than that fuse.
The heavy wiring from battery thru relay to lights should be heavy enough to handle the spotlight current plus a bit extra (usually at least 20-30% extra).
Its fuse must be rated equal to or less than the wire and relay ratings.
Search Google Images for wiring spotlight relays - there's lots of diagrams eg gadgetjq.com wiredrivinglights which references accessconnect.com.
There was another cutie at offroader's Automotive Wiring Tips but my tip is it's a fire waiting to happen (they show 10A cables to each light downstream from their 20-25A fuse!).
Regarding dipper relays for hi/lo beams, I suggest 2 plain 4 pin relays. IE - each beam has its own relay and the dip switch selects which one. That is simpler and more reliable than having a 'master' power (on-off) relay which feeds the changeover (5-pin) hi/lo selector relay.
Using the changeover system, if the master relay fails, you lose both beams whereas a failed a relay using the relay per beam method only effects that beam. And if the lowbeam relays fails, just swap it for the hibeam relay.
It's also easier to separate the fusing for each beam since each relay can have its own supply - ie, fuse etc ... I mean, self-resetting circuit breaker (of course!). [ I've corrected my previous "fuse" above. ]
Relay-wise the above may be academic since most people buy 5 pin relays even if only 4 are needed, hence they only need to keep spares of the one type. But wiring for the separate "one for each beam" relays is usually easier.
custum 
Member - Posts: 49
Member spacespace
Joined: June 25, 2014
Location: Australia
Posted: June 27, 2014 at 5:22 AM / IP Logged  
So my 4pin relay is inadequate for hi/lo break spottys, a 5pin is the compensation or where do I get a hi/lo selector rely.
Which is better to connect the switch? a fused wire to 85 or 86? Is the fuse representational of how much watts the spots use and how do you distinguish what to use, they are 100w...!? Fuses are considered more effective before a relay or after?
And for linking into the car headlights does the type of beam cause the spots to be on when selected on low and off when hi beams used?
I suppose its lucky a more technical question wasn't required from this connect a standard light system like con figuring resistors etc. The instructions were followed from the manufacturer but no good. So here I am.
THANKYOU for the assistance.
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: June 27, 2014 at 4:14 PM / IP Logged  
Just tell us what you're trying to achieve, I'll draw you a circuit.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: June 27, 2014 at 8:25 PM / IP Logged  
custum, you are really asking us basics that you should be telling us or that you should know.
For example, if it's a road vehicle then normal rules/laws require spotlights to be part of the hibeam circuit.
Then there's basic electricals like fusing ASAP after the power source to protect the distribution (wiring, relays, switches); P=VI; & fuse the hot side only - tho I recently answered the latter on just recently, and the ASAP fusing is something that may cause argument.
To help you NOW, I suggest Howie's last reply. But I'd also suggest you read other replies on here or look at other general references like bcae1. Not only might that save us repeating basics already & better explained elsewhere, but should awesomely help you in the future and possible prevent your vehicle burning to the ground - eg, do you know to (dis)connect vehicle the GND last(first)?
The 4th page in Hella Relays pdf (p 2.04) might also help. (The other pages IMO show "pre-standardised" variations for the same part.)
Re the 4pin vs 5pin relay, I tried to explain that IMO two 4pins for hi/lo is better than one of each. NOTE however that assumes a relay is used to switch the heavy current to both beams - and who would not use relays for conventional lighting (ie, not LEDs nor HIDs etc; car collectors excluded)?   
I'm curious what resistors would be recommended for a relay or spotlight installation. Are you sure they aren't talking about resistance? Any link or name for those instructions? FYI - I was just telling Howard how much incorrect documented information - & expert opinions - exists in webland.
As a design example from your 100W specification...
First cut/estimate - using the "div-10" rules - 100W/10V = 10A, hence 10A per bulb. I'd suggest therefore 15A wire & fuses.
Reality gets trickier. Without explaining, 100W could mean 100W/12V = 8.3A; or 100W/13.8V = 7.2A; or the latter @ 14.4V => 7.6A (110W); and a Hella bulb should be 100W/13.5 = 7.4A.
A 7A current should mean a 10A fuse and wire of AT LEAST 10A rating is fine. However there is a general working rule that the DESIGN should size fuses (etc?) to run at no more than 70& or 80% of their rating. Hence a 10A fuse for 7A to 8A current is ok.
Some would argue that the 12V @ 8.3A applies and hence choose a 15A fuse.
I'll put is this way: I have 2 100W bulbs and I use wire of greater than 15A rating to each filament (maybe 25A rated?). [ The heavier gauge the wire, the lower the voltage drop (because of less resistance). I can also upgrade to 130W filaments etc... ]
I designed for a 15A breaker for each (or 30A breaker for both) but later substituted 10A (or 20A) breakers to see what happened. They are still fitted (tho they do get quite warm; sometimes hot).
Your relay should handle BOTH 100W lights.
Most similar relays handle 30A or more; the 4RA 003 510-08 handles 40A. Newer micro-DIN etc relays handle less - typically only up to 20A. (I prefer one relay per filament so it doesn't matter.)
custum 
Member - Posts: 49
Member spacespace
Joined: June 25, 2014
Location: Australia
Posted: June 27, 2014 at 11:53 PM / IP Logged  
Your absolutely right and hit the nail on the head-admittedly I am a newby in electrics.
The point being made, on the net and instructionally is the knowledge known and what's not. RULE always know what you do and double check with electrics, that is all I am doing, amongst collecting tidbits for knowledge base.
But take this post from another site to read.........
Ok here's a neat trick get 2 relays, one closed and one open, put them inline with one relay going to the low and the other going to the high. When power is applied with the switch in the off position the low beam will be energized, now when you flip over to your high beams you run power through the switch, this sends power to the closed and open relays, they'll swap positions, the closed switch on the low beam will open shutting it off, the open relay will close and send power to the high beam. I'll see if I can make it look right on here via keyboard schematics:
+ --------------------------------------- Closed Relay
+ ------------ switch ------------------ Closed Relay -- Low Beam ------ Ground
+ ------------ switch ----------------- Open Relay ----- High Beam ------- Ground
+ --------------------------------------- Open Relay
I don't know if that makes sense but the single switch sends power to both relays when energized they switch positions turning the on to an off and the off to an on. If you do it right you should be able to stuff the relays in behind the headlight, there should be enough room for them that way t still looks pretty clean.
......I also read the instructions of how to build the hella lights which didn't CLEARLY SHOW connections made on the headlight wire, I ended up making an individual system until now. The difference between learning and putting into action are not CLEAR as seen above (its just written), a different way to set the rig but is it more ethical to elaborate ,so, when basically you can do this, choosing the basic setup might be more sensible and less confusing. Information it might be but reading is all it is and easy to confuse.
Here is An answered question.....
      "However there is a general working rule that the DESIGN should size fuses (etc?) to run at no more than 70& or 80% of their rating. Hence a 10A fuse for 7A to 8A current is ok.
Some would argue that the 12V @ 8.3A applies and hence choose a 15A fuse."
.....precisely, clearly why a fuse is now the most important consideration when making electrics, and as close to the power source as possible. Lesson learned straight away!.
My main question is not answered ,as a clear build, as each diagram I've seen complicates even more, this time the link to access connect.com would have sufficed but for the 87a which I don't have; the switch is linked to 87, yet on another it is linked to 85. This might come known to you as an easy but I have no idea why there's a difference or even if you CAN do that. Essentially it doesn't seem safe, hence my question.
Yes, the net taught me the positive comes off first...............
(I wouldn't set foot near the + until the neg was removed/made safe making it safe to drop the + if need be...the system is still alive with the neg in contact)
So don't feel like your wasting space with repetitive basics, make one paste for the answer of everything in it for the basic stuff, helpful accurate information is really needed when one is not sure.
It doesn't seem like the hi/lo will effectually make any difference connected to the suggested hi wire or lo wire as I had hoped so I'll make an alternative system, as long you can verify the switch is + to 85 and the use of relays can be with just one? Then were done, obviously the fuse is answered although I say that because a resetting circuit is better, getting one might be a trip to the city.
Thankyou for your help.
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: June 28, 2014 at 1:25 AM / IP Logged  
And you can use one relay with 3 amp diodes for the above circuit but with due respect please go and read up on relays first. BTW that standard Hella relay is also known as a Bosch/Tycho "cube" because it's one inch per side plus terminals.
You also in 5 pin relays have type 87a, 87b twin 87s, built in resistive or diode quenching.
ISO convention, i.e. as used by ALL car manufacturers:-
85 switch (coil) NEG
86 switch (coil) POS
87 NO
87a NC
30 common.
Page of 2

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Thursday, March 28, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer