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delay relay pin out needed


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oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: September 30, 2014 at 3:03 AM / IP Logged  
Ah yes... The Cole Hersee "excuse" is the marketing used by all voltage controlled isolator sellers to turn a disadvantageous necessity into something that seems like a benefit. It has also been called a "priority charging system" which is ok if that means a simple time delay where the main battery gets all available alternator capacity (as if for some reason it is limited), however saying that "(it) monitors the main battery and connects the aux battery when the main if full" is quite fallacious and is misleading advertising, as well as in most cases something totally unnecessary - ie, why delay the charging of the aux battery - isn't it better to get both recharged as quickly as possible?
IMO any alternator that can't handle its own output is somewhat pathetic. I maintain that properly designed alternators are self limiting (ie, reach (magnetic) saturation that prevents overcurrent and have sufficient cooling to handle their max output). Some don't - I have often written about Bosch alternators from at least the 1980s & 1990s that can't even handle jump starts nor weak batteries whereas the typical Japanese alternators from the 1960s onwards that I have dealt with have no such problems - except by exception.
BTW - That (Cole Hersee) statement "not connecting the auxiliary battery until the primary battery is charged to 13.2V" is crap. What they mean is they do not connect the aux battery until the "system" (ie, alternator/battery) reaches 13.2V; they do not monitor the voltage of the main battery itself.
And since most charging systems go straight to 14V or higher after starting, the aux battery connects immediately - except that their required "delay to connect" means the aux won't be connected until after that delay passes.
I'm surprised anyone still includes such a misleading statement. (We have Laws against that, tho it requires someone to point out the mislead to the relevant authorities.)
All voltage sensing types will have some parasitic drain. They monitor voltage full-time so their sensing circuitry is always powered and sensing. (An IGN +12V input would overcome that.)
The lowest standby aka parasitic load I know of is 50uA or 500uA with LED status indicator for the Oatley Electronics 12-24V Dual Battery Controller K227 kit (was AUD$22; may now be discontinued) which uses a 80A rated latching relay and hence no extra current except when changing relay state. (Since rediscovering the UIBI I now use the K227 as a battery protector - ie, a low voltage cutout - the same as a battery isolator but with a lower voltage set point.)
To overcome the parasitic drain of a voltage sensing isolator you could power the sensing circuity from IGN +12V - maybe from the ECU relay (if fitted) if the IGN +12V has a high voltage drop. The voltage difference between IGN +12V and actual battery voltage should not be significant wrt to isolator sensing - it's not as critical as an alternator's (regulator's) sensing which should be within (say) 0.1V or 0.2V if the battery's actual voltage.
Some voltage sensing isolator are of integral construction but many are simply relays/contactors with sensing circuity attached and the sensing +12V from the heavy +12V relay input can easily be intercepted.
Of course the isolator's GND can also be intercepted (unless it is integral and not wired and is via its case to body/chassis).
Both intercepts may have to handle the full current of the relay coil (maybe 2A for large 200A - 400A relays/contactors) plus the sensing circuity - the latter should only be its standby current - eg, 5mA to 8mA plus a bit extra; else maybe allow for 100mA.
I'll get back to you on switching arrangements, and maybe how the almighty UIBI can do it.
BTW, I think BlueSea (amongst others) have manual bypass variants, however I still maintain that voltage sensing isolators are inferior to alternator charge light controlled isolators (eg, the UIBI) and their only place (with a few rare exceptions) is where such charging or not charging (charge light) circuits do not exist - eg, stator or permanent magnet alternator as on some bikes & RVs, marine systems, etc.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: September 30, 2014 at 9:56 AM / IP Logged  
Thank You Sir,
Your words here are falling on some VERY appreciating and grateful ears.
I knew I there was more I didn't like the Cole Hersee Isolator.
I needed that.
I had already ordered the delay-on-relay before my post and still like something about having the default option being truck fire up on the Main alone and then the AUX joining in so I may perhaps just shorten the delay.
Perhaps this short delay would provide me with confirmation the Main is healthy enough to start her up alone, rather than a carte blanche combined. Good to know after a while of idleness. A 2005 with only 70k miles should indicate she gets lots of rest eh?
FYI my alternator is the OE 145A two wire variety. I remember for the 2005 trucks they advertized how it was a part of an MPG helper because it senses the demand and provides as needed giving less drag when providing less.
Fusing? I have read a so-called rule of thumb would be to match the alternator output. I'm going with the ANL type and may start with 125A or 150A.
Other than some kind of mishap, I am the type to gladly aid a motorist who needs a jump. With this setup I would switch to the middle (my true isolation position) and use the AUX + and Frame or Block -. With that in mind what rate would you start with.
Thanks, Waiting on your words on switching. I work evenings and my replies are either in the AM on either side of my downtime. Zzzz..
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: October 02, 2014 at 3:17 AM / IP Logged  
I thought I forgot something this morning (ie, this thread).
There is 2 wire and then there is 2 wire...
Traditional alternators had at least a charge light output with optional Sense &/or Ignition wires (eg, SIL types) tho most are single wire (D+) else 2-wire (S&L aka S & D+). (Ignition should be superfluous due to the D+/L connection, but they had their reasons.)
Modern alternators however can be DP types and other name types that I've forgotten.
These are somewhat different in that they are ECU interactive (the ECU provides the chargeLight info tho that could be via LCD & text etc via the CAN) however one of the lines can be used as an L-type trigger...
Maybe if I explain UIBI development.   The UIBI (now Mark-1) was simply a traditional electric fuel pump etc relay or battery isolator (relay) that was turned on when the alternator was charging - ie, D+/L = +12V and not GND as it is when the chargeLight is lit.
UIBI-1 functioned well with old electro-mechanical voltage regulators that used a relay for the D+/L circuit but those e-mags were replaced by electronic regulators.
Initially electronic voltage regulators also handled the typical 250mA relay/UIBI current because they were designed to be compatible with existing wiring - ie, multiple lamps driven by D+/L (most early IGN-on "dash lamp tests" where via a diode-isolated connection to the D+/L circuit) else cars with fuel cutoffs or electric chokes or fuel pump relays.
Later vehicles started using more sophisticated methods for controlling such functions - eg, ECU's handled fuel pumps & cutoff valves; dash circuits handled lamp test functions (ie, other than the chargeLight they would not come on after an engine stall whereas D+/L diode-connected lamps would).
Hence alternators no longer had to sink (ground) heavyish loads (like 250mA bulbs) nor supply 250mA etc relays. Not that heavy sinking electronic D+/L circuits had to source equivalent +12V currents, but many did.
Anyhow, along came the UIBI-2 with was merely a MOSFET buffer with RC filtering that drove the (UIBI) relay. Hence the UIBI was a mere nano-Amp or micro-Amp loading on the D+/L circuit.
The RC delay was also sufficient to enable use on DP type (ECU controlled or interactive) alternators (and high impedance enough not to effect existing circuits).
But the UIBI-2 was scrapped in favor if the UIBI-3 which used a PICAXE 08M2 as a front end. It too had burger-all loading on D+/L circuits and wasn't much more expensive than the UIBI-2 (eg, $5 plus UIBI-2 costs).
And it was envisaged to be a universal battery isolator that could handle older and new ECU type alternators and offer User-configurable connection delays or manual override options, and probably an alarm to notify of link failures or out-of-spec batteries etc.
Later it was decided to (eventually...) also incorporate a "smart battery isolator" option - ie, voltage controlled so that the UIBI-3 could be used on any alternator/generator system.
Of course its smart isolator parameters would be fully user configurable - eg connect voltage, disconnect voltage, reconnect delays (though probably set to a minimum of 15 secs unless other smarts prevented excessive hunting or switch cycling).     
The UIBI-3 was essentially a universal piece of hardware that could be user configurable and handle any alternator type, and any functional (software) updates handle via download. (Eventually even real time text logs or alpha-numeric display/PC output.)
Alas the procrastinating else otherwise distracted and unnamed OldFart involved only got as far as the prototype UIBI-2 despite sourcing 08M2s several years ago... delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image.
As for fusing, the alternator-battery fuse is NOT to protect the alternator. It is (or should be) close to the battery and is to protect the battery and wiring in case of a short to GND.
In my experience, fuses do little to protect alternators, especially those too pathetic to handle being jumpstarted etc. [ I know of several old (small) alternators that tolerated modern-alternator-destroying (big) faults despite having no fusing at all! ]
[ FYI - The destructive current transients involved blow the main rectifiers and fuses are too slow to react. And as I said, alternators should be self limiting wrt to sustained (and short) overloads. ]
Hence IMO the alt-batt fuse should have nothing to do with alternator sizing and merely be sized to protect the cable, else lower if the cable capacity is far in excess of battery capabilities and alternator current demands.
And yet again I'll get back to you on that UIBI etc manual control stuff. (My router crashed last night just after submitting my reply above. I suspect my verbiage crashed it...)
When jump starting I jump from the battery +12V terminal, and usually the batt -ve terminal. That's because its the battery that usually supplies at least of the high current used for cranking.
Only if voltage drops are high might I jump from the alternator output (if accessible) and engine block, however I have often jumpered direct to the engine block and starter heavy +12V terminal of the flat vehicle. (IMO demonstrating the high voltage drops of starter and GND cables in OEM vehicles during cranking.) With the latter usually an engine-off jump straight from the battery is all that's required, but sometimes I'll run my engine to pre-charge the flat battery on non-Jap alternatored vehicles etc, or provide extra spark for some voltage sensitive ignition systems. (Both my starter and ignition function well at a mere 5V battery voltage, but others often still don't have the exceptional abilities my mere 49 year old vehicle has delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image..)
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: October 02, 2014 at 5:21 AM / IP Logged  
Well I thought there was a more modern copy...
The pic below is ~5 years old - and I have permission to use it for the12volt.
And note that the Battery symbol is shown incorrectly - namely inverted - the +12V terminal should be a LONG line and its negative/GND a short line segment. (Stupid diagram drawers!!)
It may look overly complicated but please note:
- maybe I should have posted a "simple" UIBI diagram first...,
- the pic refers to "Fuel Pump Relay" wiring and control but it's exactly the same as the UIBI or alternator chargeLight controlled battery isolator... merely substitute UIBI or battery isolator (relay) for Fuel Pump Relay; the 2nd battery's +12V terminal instead of the Fuel Pump on relay terminal #30; and the +12V input (#87) as the main battery's +12V terminal.
The pic endeavors to show how extra +12V control inputs are simply added by diode-isolating all the +12V inputs to relay coil.
It does NOT show an override disable switch which would be an NC (Normally Closed) switch for the relay coil - eg, between #85 & GND, or between #86 and the rest of the (diode) sources.
Note that for any input to override the manual OFF NC override switch, simply move its diode output to AFTER the NC off switch - ie, between the OFF switch coil #86. (The NC OFF switch therefore cannot be in the #85 to GND segment UNLESS the override is a GND signal in which case reverse the diode IF backfeed from the NC grounding OFF switch is not desired.)
To explain...
Ignore the starter motor and its upper two horizontal links and Start switch position.
Ignore all diodes and lines other than the Charge Lamp and lowest Alt-Regulator charge lamp controller switch and the RH FPR relay coil.
Hence is should be a "simple":
- battery +12V thru Ignition Switch (IGN) to Charge Lamp +ve,
- the lower regulator switch which is the D+ or L aka chargeLamp terminal to the isolator (FPR's) relay coil #86.
Assume IGN is off. There is no +12V to the chargeLamp and the alternator's (voltage regulator's) D+/L terminal is at GND and hence the relay is de-energised and the batteries are isolated (30 & 87 are open as shown in the diagram).
Turn IGN on. +12V is applied to the top of the chargeLamp and it illuminates because its bottom is switched to GND via the alternator's D+/L switch/circuit. But the isolator relay is still off because its #86 is GND via the D+/L switch/circuit.
Crank the engine. The charge light should remain off (tho I have met a few exceptions) hence the batteries are still isolated.
The engine starts and the alternator produces output. Internally its voltage generation switches D+/L to +12V.
Hence:
+12V on both sides of the chargeLight extinguishes the Charge Lamp (ie, there is zero volts across it),
that +12V energised the relay coil and hence closes 30 & 87 thereby interconnecting the batteries.
Stalling the engine causes D+/L to revert to GND as does turning off the IGNition, hence the battery isolator relay opens and isolates the battery.
Simple eh?
delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image. ??
So in summary, +12V to the isolation relay's coil #86 closes the relay and connects the batteries.
That +12V comes from the alternator when it is charging.
[ FYI from a Fuel Pump POV - ignore this block if not iterested...
You may see the brilliance of the circuit. The fuel pump operates ONLY when the alternator is charging. Hence if the engine stalls (after hitting an accident) the fuel pump immediately shuts down.
Of course a fuel pump also requires a prime function to pressurise fuel injectors before cranking or supply carby & injector fuel during cranking. That can be done with an SPST (4 pin) Fuel Pump Relay by diode combining a +12V cranking signal with D+/L, or using an SPDT (changeover) relay with its NC 87a terminal connected to a +12V cranking signal - eg, from the starter solenoid input to have enough current to directly power the fuel pump - hence why the fuel pump is shown on $30 and IGN or battery +12V on #87. otherwise #30 & #87 are interchangeable {if, in this case, 87a is unused}. ]
To add other or manual inputs to interconnect the batteries, insert a diode in the D+/L circuit and add (parallel) all other +12V control sources via diodes to relay coil #86 as shown in the diagram.
One such input could be an HU's remote output tho it should be disableable if the HU is on when the alternator is not charging (maybe thru a switch enabling another relay to connect or disconnect the remote +12V).
A timer could also be inserted between D+/L and the relay coil.
So many possibilities...
And at the time (circa 2005) essentially such battery isolator (or fuel pump) control was available on every vehicle via the chargeLight circuit. The only issue was if D+/L could drive the relay.
[ Solutions there included using an intermediate smaller relay - eg, a 1kOhm coiled relay (<15mA coil current) similar to how your 10A timed relay buffers your BIG relay's ~2A coil current; or a transistor or MOSFET buffer. ]
Yet people often bought the more expensive voltage aka smart battery isolators. I won't go into the operational disadvantages of those tho I have mentioned a few. And I won't go into the insanity of using oil pressure to control fuel pumps (why risk far worse damage to an engine than the lack of oil might do?) - I've discussed that enough elsewhere!
I think I've answered all your questions tho protection (fuse) and cable sizing are generalisations since details like battery type and application (load size & type - amps or winches etc) are lacking (AFAIRecall).
Plus a whole lot more info...
I'd like to say "but don't trust me; look around" however I know the plethora of bullsh and well meaning but flawed logic or misconceptions out there.   
But you seem to have understood what I've said and hence understand such marketing or info crap. Of course maybe I'm just a good con artist - probably out to enhance my ego else make a fortune by providing all this free info.
However I welcome any knowledgeable person that has alternate info or views AND can reasonably argue such (no motherhood statements or generalisations and no attempts at personal assassination etc) in case it's not obvious to me, and I challenge any others to substantiate their case (tho I'll bail out to IMO obvious time wasters).
BTW - another brilliance with this circuit wrt to both battery isolation and fuel pump control is that if the alternator fails and hence does not energise the relay, to enable the fuel pump OR parallel the batteries (for enough juice to get home), simply disconnect the alternator D+/L (and S & I etc) and the chargeLamp should provide enough current to energise the relay (especially in older vehicles with D+/L tested dash lights).
(For newer vehicles you might need to jumper #30 to #87 direct, else #86 to +12V (IGN +12V, or the isolator input (#87 else #30), etc).
Also the D+/L GND/+12V changeover circuit is depicted as a 2-way switch. In old e-mag regulators it was essentially an SPDT relay. Later electronic and alternator-intergral voltage regulators often used SPDT relays else circuits that imitated SPDT relay behavior (allbethey maybe only capable of maybe 500mA to a few Amps) but even later alternators may have had lower D+/L current capability and possible negligible current capability when +12V.
But that D+/L switch is a good way of depicting traditional D+/L circuits. However it should be disregarded for newer ECU-interactive alternators - some filter or integrator and buffer is needed for their typical pulse output signalling (hence RC MOSFET etc buffers).
Another short reply ends...     
delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: October 05, 2014 at 10:53 PM / IP Logged  
Mercy, I'm floored, Thanks!
I have been doing some of the hardware work. I am waiting for the DPDT toggle to arrive.
Below is a first pass install. I ran out of heat shrink and looming. The looming is High Temp non-split type.
The uncovered wire looks like its touching the HVAC line but is not. And its the first pass since I'm waiting on a fuse holder to arrive.
So........... I already have the Time-on-delay relay, and need a relay anyways so it will be used in the setup.
As for making use of the delay-on function usage let me ask this.
My parasitic drain as shipped from the factory is 47 - 50ma after everything goes into sleep about 1 hour later. In this hour she will be 90ma for 30 minutes, 74ma for the remaining 30 minutes.
The vehicle can sit for as much as 7 to 10 days. With this drain I'm sure a single AGM in good shape can handle it. "Gulp" -I hope! A DieHard Platinum AKA - Odyssey PC1500DT.
Do you know the formula for estimating the total drain for 240 hours of a 50ma drain, and an estimate for my 145A alternator to supply my truck in normal driving and top off the battery?
Also below is my GTC CM100 DC Ammeter. Great device for the poor man with good resolution and accuracy. There is a good review of it up on U Tube somewhere.
Thanks Again
My DC Amp Meter
delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image.
Forward Progress
The circle and arrow is an unused connector I found lurking in the shadows. This was to show a buddy of mine. Its ign-on.
delay relay pin out needed - Page 2 -- posted image.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: October 05, 2014 at 11:51 PM / IP Logged  
Total drain for 240 hours of a 50ma drain = 240 x 0.05 = 12AH.
The AH capacity of your battery over 240 hours (C240) will be much higher than its rating (which will probably be at C10 or C20) but using its rated capacity will give more conservative figures (ie, predict a lower battery voltage than it actually will be). [So assuming 70AH rating; 12AH means nearly 20% discharged.]
I don't know what you mean re the alternator, but size isn't important as long as there is capacity to spare. Charge rate is determined by alternator voltage, the internal battery voltage & its internal plus charging path resistance.
But generally speaking, most automotive batteries have recovered ~90-95% of their lost charge within 2-10 minutes.
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: October 06, 2014 at 12:54 AM / IP Logged  
Thanks Again
Nominal Capacity: (20 Hr Rate-Ah 68) (10 Hr Rate-Ah 62)
Reserve Capacity Minutes: 135
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: October 06, 2014 at 1:48 AM / IP Logged  
Yeah - probably about 100Ah @ C240...
But the good thing at such low discharge rates is that the terminal voltage will be so close to the OC (Open Circuit) (& rested) voltage measurement that SOC (State Of Charge) can be easily determined.
Just remember that terminal voltages after a recharge are invalid (surface charge has to dissipate....).
You may have read my various recommendation for a 3-digit dash voltmeter - I consider it mandatory; especially for us that modify or run accessories - it's the best indication of system health and even prewarns of over- or under-charging or a failing battery. (There's been 2 recent ammeter threads where I may have said more.)   I have one direct to my battery terminals which is connected to +12V via a (small PCB) relay controlled by the Ignition +12V. (I might eventually add my intended 3-way switch to select IGN, off or +12V (full time) tho I also intended a smart circuit (PICAXE 08M2) to hold on for (say) 2 minutes after IGN off; maybe make "fulltime" a momentary switch else limited to 2 minutes, and maybe even switch it on (if off) and alter me if the system is out of spec.) But that has prevented a few embarrassing moments (like forgetting to reconnect the ammeter after various works)!
BTW - I'd suggest insulating the hot output from the battery. A big AGM like that probably has a short circuit current in excess of 3,000A and that's not a pretty sight. (Interrupting those currents is itself a hazard!)
2therock 
Copper - Posts: 67
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 06, 2008
Location: Georgia, United States
Posted: October 13, 2014 at 1:09 AM / IP Logged  
Hi,
Still tweaking the install. No toggle switch yet, just key on with the delay on operate in the mix. I think I see why you are not excited about that. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference.
I need some help with the toggle though. These are some really nice little units with bi-color LED's in the lever tips. But.......
The LED circuit needs resistors or ballast resistors or something to that effect.
I need help with what components to buy and a little guidance in the connections.
They are NKK M2100 series LED Tipped toggles.
Here is a link to the pdf sheet. https://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/M2100.pdf
Look at the bottom of page A79 for the little section called "LED Colors & Specifications."
I sure would like to make it work for me. My Ign-on is 12v and peaks @ 1.6A when activated. I guess I need to reduce things for the LED Circuit.
Thanks.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: October 13, 2014 at 3:19 AM / IP Logged  
It's not so much that I'm not excited about battery isolator delays, it's more that I reckon it is (almost) complete bullsh.
To paraphrase, voltage sensing isolators (smart isolators etc) must have a delay before they connect. This is a disadvantage but smart isolator sellers turned it into an advantage by spouting crap like priority charging etc, and those that have invested in such relatively expensive isolators or read their blurb believe the hype and then add that piece of (bullsh) expert advice whenever they can.
The only time such a delay is of advantage is if you have (IMO) a crap alternator - ie, something that blows as a result of short trm overloads. But even crap alternators usually handle a 2nd battery unless perhaps lights & wipers are also on.
But from the POV of fastest total (re)charge recovery or the need to limit charge currents or the dangers of connecting a flat battery the delay is undesirable.
For the switch LEDs, a 560 Ohm resistor should be fine except RED / green = 1.2k Ohm. 1/2W resistors are fine; even 1/4W.
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