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jeffchilcott 
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Posted: November 12, 2004 at 11:25 PM / IP Logged  
Ok guys dont kill me for asking this, I know you are thinking this is the typical question, how can I run my subs and amp in the house.   Its Not!!!!!
I am considering building a front speaker cabinet to house 2 or 4   6 1/2 mid drivers thinking alpine..I am wanting to do this because I love the polk audio home equipment thats set up like this and I am going to try to accomplish something like this on my own.   Any thoughts or suggestions?   Any Sites on box fabrication for home use?
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kfr01 
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Posted: November 12, 2004 at 11:44 PM / IP Logged  
Do you already have the drivers?
The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1882580338/qid=1100324097/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3969300-4341403?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
is probably the best source I've found on home audio box fabrication. I'm actually trying to get into home speaker building at the moment right now too. If you haven't bought the drivers yet, don't - you probably don't want car audio drivers. Check out the wide variety of home audio DIY drivers available from http://www.madisound.com/
The biggest challenge for me is going to be in planning the crossover network. I actually might try building an active crossover because of the substantial benefits I have been reading about.
Anyway, the same basic concepts on box fabrication apply for home use. You'll want to brace the cabinet, dampen the box, calculate the volume using T/S parameters. One point the author of the loudspeaker cookbook hammers home is that flush mounting home audio drivers makes a huge difference (not important for the sub).
Also check out all the stuff under the Speaker Building section at http://www.partsexpress.com/
I'm sure DYohn, stevdart, hympyst, and others will chime in here. They know much more about the subject than I do.
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 12:24 AM / IP Logged  

 Building a good set of speakers is much more than just selecting mids and tweeters and crap-shooting the crossover design.  To design it right you need some pretty expensive test equipment, software, and a great deal of knowledge and experience of what works and what doesn't.  Honestly for your first time I would suggest looking at kits instead.  They supply the speakers and crossover parts and you build them from there. 

Now if you still want to build your own, there is a forum dedicated to it with many VERY smart people there.  Check out www.diyaudio.com and just start searching.  Good luck!   BTW, if you have any specific questions please feel free to ask. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

haemphyst 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 12:36 AM / IP Logged  
Both kfr01 and Steven are correct. Most kits are well designed, especially if you buy them from Madisound, and I would REALLY recommend against using a car driver in the house, not because of impedance, but because of physical specs... they just don't work well when you put 'em in an enclosure. Oh, sure, you can MAKE 'em work well, but do you have the tools necessary to get the T/S parameters from them, to be certain your box is the right size? The diyaudio forums are really good, and there are many people there as knowledgeable as the people here. Look into those avenues before just plunking down your hard-earned $$$ on car speakers. But absolutely ask if you have any questions as your project goes along. We are always happy to help!
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
kfr01 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 12:53 AM / IP Logged  
Steven, I'm pretty dead-set on building my own. I understand that kits are an easy way to start, probably the better way in terms of an end-product, but I frankly don't think that the kits will help me learn anything.
I own the power tools necessary. I've read about the cabinet construction and will continue to learn more about that. What do you (everyone out there) recommend as the best way to proceed? What do I need to buy?
The Soundeasy + Boxcad package seems to be fairly full-featured for the price. Does anyone have any experience with this software? Is it adequate, or do I need to shell out the full price for Leap?
Anyway, as long as the drivers are of similar sensitivity and have sufficient flat frequency response overlap are there any other major considerations regarding driver selection?
I'm fairly certain I can handle the enclosure design and construction by following the guidelines as set out in the cookbook.
After the enclosure the next step seems to be crossover development. As I understand it, ideally this involves modeling the actual driver response characteristics in software, selecting a crossover point, watching what happens to the combined response, and then correcting / tweaking for abnormalities caused by the crossover and box. Is this a correct summary of the steps necessary?
Finally, I'm thinking of creating active filters instead of passive. It seems like a much more workable system. I've heard nothing but positives about 'going active' from the internet and the short blurb in the cookbook. Are there any major drawbacks to 'active' that these have skimmed over?
Anyway. Basically I want to learn what else there is beyond selecting the drivers and "crap-shooting the crossover design." Is my brief summary accurate?
Thanks in advance.
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 2:41 AM / IP Logged  

kfr01 wrote:
Steven, I'm pretty dead-set on building my own. I understand that kits are an easy way to start, probably the better way in terms of an end-product, but I frankly don't think that the kits will help me learn anything.

That's no problem.  I just wanted to be sure that everyone understood the complexity of what they are getting into.  Of course all the great speaker engineers had to start somewhere.  

kfr01 wrote:
 What do you (everyone out there) recommend as the best way to proceed? What do I need to buy?

Well first I recomend doing some serious research.  There are many different drivers out there in many different price ranges.  And price doesn't necessarily dictate the quality of the driver. 

kfr01 wrote:
The Soundeasy + Boxcad package seems to be fairly full-featured for the price. Does anyone have any experience with this software? Is it adequate, or do I need to shell out the full price for Leap?

I'd recomend LSPCad.  It seems to be very accurate and has some great features.  It has a good crossover modeling section in it, and is one of the more accurate enclosure design softwares on the market. 

kfr01 wrote:
  Anyway, as long as the drivers are of similar sensitivity and have sufficient flat frequency response overlap are there any other major considerations regarding driver selection?

Actually similar sensitivity isn't critical as you can always adjust the differences in the crossover network.  Just remember the lower in frequency you run the speakers, the less overall output you can get from them.  Also look closely at the frequency response of the mid.  A lot of times you will see cone resonances that cause dips in the response early which means you will have to roll off the speaker early.  This can also mean that you will have to run the tweeter lower and thereby hurt your peak output.  You should also check out the response of the speakers at different axis points.  Otherwise you might have good results on axis, but have a very narrow sweet spot. 

You should also understand how we hear things.  Sometimes something will measure badly, but will sound just fine.  A perfect example of this is doppler distortion.  It measures very bad in some speakers, but when you actually listen it is either inaudible or isn't objectionable. 

kfr01 wrote:
 After the enclosure the next step seems to be crossover development. As I understand it, ideally this involves modeling the actual driver response characteristics in software, selecting a crossover point, watching what happens to the combined response, and then correcting / tweaking for abnormalities caused by the crossover and box. Is this a correct summary of the steps necessary?

What my boss usually does is first select the speakers.  He then has me build test enclosures for the speakers.  He then tests each speaker in it's place, with the microphone hooked up to his computer.  Next he uses LSPCad to design a crossover for the speakers using that collected data.  Then the computer is connected to an amplifier and the amplifier feeds the speakers.  LSPCad allows him to play music that is then fed through his similated crossover network and into the speakers.  He can actually hear the crossover before he builds it.  From his listening tests he can determine whether to modify the design or not.   After that he hands me the crossover scematic, I build it up and we test it. 

kfr01 wrote:
Finally, I'm thinking of creating active filters instead of passive. It seems like a much more workable system. I've heard nothing but positives about 'going active' from the internet and the short blurb in the cookbook. Are there any major drawbacks to 'active' that these have skimmed over?

Well I think having to amplify each speaker seperately is a major drawback.  Honestly unless you are going with digital crossovers, I don't see any benifit.

kfr01 wrote:
Anyway. Basically I want to learn what else there is beyond selecting the drivers and "crap-shooting the crossover design." Is my brief summary accurate?

Sorry, I hope that didn't sound rude.  It's just that I've seen people do this before and they never get good results.  I just wanted to make sure you knew not to do it.

I do want to add one more thing.  The crossover is the most important part of a speaker system.  It is what gives the speakers their voice.  Second in importance is the speaker selection.  And finally a distant thrird is the enclosures. 

I hope this helps!

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Steven Kephart 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 2:53 AM / IP Logged  

BTW, I thought I should add that I've never designed speakers myself.  I'm just going based on what I've learned from my boss by helping, observing, and asking questions.  So if you guys (Dyon) see anything questionable in my posts, please point it out.

BTW, we have a free downoad of LspCAD on our website if you want to try it out.  Here's the link: http://www.adireaudio.com/TextPages/FreeSoftwarePageFrameText.htm  There's also a link to a site where you can buy the full version of the software.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

bdl666 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 4:11 AM / IP Logged  

       $980 for a program? 

You might want to check out this site it has a lot of info on speaker building.

http://www.speakerbuilding.com/

Check out the software page, lots of software some free. Also you might want to request the Parts Express catalog, they have all the stuff you will need for the crossovers and the cabinets( some of this stuff is kind of difficult to find on their site). Not to mention all the drivers they have . And like Steven said a driver doesn't have to be expensive to be good.

Ps. Can you tell I'm cheap? lol

jeffchilcott 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 10:35 AM / IP Logged  
Thanks for all the great info guys.    I was just thinking of doing this, I am very very picky on my car audio setup.   I have to make sure I have all things in place to have a killer sq setup while also enough control on the bass to blow the young-in's off the steets with there cheap stuff.   I really liked the polk auido floor speakers, I cant believe the sound they can get out of 2   6 1/2 inch drivers!    But I am pretty picky about spending $800-$1000 for some home audio,    I didnt even spend that on all 4 of my subs!!!     and I ' run eclipse susb in the car!!!     who knows     thought's for mind
2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place
kfr01 
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Posted: November 13, 2004 at 1:13 PM / IP Logged  
Steven, thank you for the very thorough answer. I really appreciate you taking the time to confirm what I've been learning. Don't worry, you didn't sound rude at all. :-)
I can't quite decide what my first project should be, but I'm an HT guy who thinks the center is the most important speaker so I want to try a center channel first.
We're completing our basement right now an I'm planning a HT room. I'll probably be buying an Infocus 16x9 projector and building a screen. That said, I want center channel output to match the largeness of the video output I plan on having. The vocal portion of the midrange will be key, but I want enough bass extension to handle rich vocals like Jack Nicholson in his newer movies at high volume levels. I knew I was probably destined for building my own speakers when I was demoing centers the other week. I was stepping up the center channel offering of B&W and it took until the $2000 nautilus version before I was actually impressed with the richness at high volumes. Other speakers like Energy were rich, but it seemed somewhat inflated and boomy. Anyway - I figured with some research and tuning I can probably start approaching the $2000 nautilus for a lot less money.
Their design used a top mount tweeter, a single 6.5" midrange, and 2 6.5" midbass drivers. I'm thinking about trying to replicate this with a tbd tweeter, a single Extremis 6 midrange, and 2 Extremis 6 drivers as midbass.
I was also thinking about possibly using 2 CSS 4.5" drivers as the midrange instead of the single Extremis.
Any thoughts?
btw Jeff, you're right on Polk. I helped my parents select a HT system and I felt like the Polk RTi series all around was by far the best value for the money at that price point.
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
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