the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

severe voltage drop, bad alternator?


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
astro88 
Copper - Posts: 195
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 01, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 11, 2006 at 5:18 PM / IP Logged  
Changed out the battery today with a new one that was in my other car its an ac delco, its only 650 cca theres absolutely no room under the hood for a bigger battery! i tried to fit a eliminater 1000 cca in there and there was no bloody way!Anyways there was no change at all.
Car has been starting no problem the whole time,with this batt and the last one.
Myself i can see the use of the extra more powerfull batterys to help supply the extra current draw but what im thinking is that as the power is being sucked from them wouldnt i still be relying on my weak ass alternater to recharge them? A job it seems its not capable of doing it seems.
What i will do is try to find a yellow top for my car that fits and go from there,im looking into a new alternater but if its way too much money lol im selling this car! haha
sedate 
Silver - Posts: 1,173
Silver spacespace
Joined: July 03, 2004
Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: November 11, 2006 at 8:03 PM / IP Logged  
astro88 wrote:
Changed out the battery today with a new one that was in my other car its an ac delco, its only 650 cca theres absolutely no room under the hood for a bigger battery! i tried to fit a eliminater 1000 cca in there and there was no bloody way!
By 'Bigger' I mean a Yellow Top or comparable Deep Cycle battery for high-load applications.. the physical size of the battery is largely irrelevant. What is important here is the internal construction of the battery... it must be able to not only store large amounts of current, but, (and here is where your stock-type batteries fail) withstand the huge abuses of a constant 50 - 150 amp drain for longer periods.
The really important thing isn't so much ultimate storage capacity, but the batteries physical ability to deal with large loads, and multiple charges/discharges.. loads that oem-replacement type batteries cannot handle.
astro88 wrote:
Car has been starting no problem the whole time,with this batt and the last one.
I betcha that the original battery may hold 12v at its poles but putting any sort of load to it totally craps it out. It not only fails to charge past a small fraction of its original capacity, but past starting your car it is for all intents and purposes dead. Just my thinking.
astro88 wrote:
Myself i can see the use of the extra more powerfull batterys to help supply the extra current draw but what im thinking is that as the power is being sucked from them wouldnt i still be relying on my weak ass alternater to recharge them? A job it seems its not capable of doing it seems.
I'm not sure what test your shop ran, but I'm not convinced your alternator is working properly after originially subjecting it the amps you have with only a stock SLI battery behind it..
Like... very quickly (within minutes, I imagine) upon firing up your new amplifiers you drained off your original battery (at this point light dimming and intermintent monoblock shuttoffs were now occuring) and now were pulling from the alternator directly.. while the huge gaping hole in your electrical system that was your battery, now at 8v or so, interupts what little current is actually there... you probably damaged your alternator asking such huge pulls from it and the SLI battery never had a chance against your monoblock...
Ultimately, the goal is to show the car a constant charge of 12v.. to the amps and the rest of the vehicle... an oem alternator putting out 100amps or so ought be sufficent ... but ONLY when backed by batteries that can, on their own, maintain amplifiers for at least SOME time...   again.. music is dynamic and your amps are not going to be even close to thier maximum output/current draw ALL the time.. assuming you spend sometime in the car NOT blasting your eardrums out of existence or at relaxed listening volumes. As long as the batteries maintain a charge of 12v, which they WILL DO under the load of those amps, particularly backed by an operating alternator, you will NOT experience the power failures that you were experiencing.
I will concede however, that a dedicated effort to run off the batteries, even in the face of an idling car, will do so. Eventually, assuming you're playing like a tone CD or something and can keep your monoblock running red-hot all the time, you ought be able to knock my suggested setup out of commission... but for everyday, real world use, I'd hazard you will not find a more economically competetive solution..
Even if you do add a high-output alternator, which is, ultimately, not a bad idea (again, research this purchase EXTREAMLY carefully.. I've bought 3 different rewound alts from 3 different ppl and never had ONE of them put out more than 10v at idle) you will still require a proper deep cycle battery to maintain any semblence of system reliablity.
"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
Alpine Guy 
Platinum - Posts: 2,478
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: October 18, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 11, 2006 at 9:11 PM / IP Logged  

"Even if you do add a high-output alternator, which is, ultimately, not a bad idea (again, research this purchase EXTREAMLY carefully.. I've bought 3 different rewound alts from 3 different ppl and never had ONE of them put out more than 10v at idle) you will still require a proper deep cycle battery to maintain any semblence of system reliablity." 

That right there is where your assumption of an alternator wont do anything.  When you get an alternator re-wound in a stock case there isn't much room to play with so something has to be compromised, aka the idle output..  If you purchase a quality alternator (at least $1 per amp) you wont have that problem.  I have always spent good money $300-$400 on alternators and have achieved excellent results.  With my mechman alternator I could sit at a stop light with the bass cranked on a bass cd and not get light dimming. (3000WRMS System)

Now, as for your missunderstanding on how adding more batteries is the answer that is very wrong. If you have time to do so I would study some electrical characteristics, for example how a capacitor charges and discharges in a rectified AC circuit. A battery can only charge to its source voltage (the alternator), If the alternator is only putting out 10 volts, your battery will NEVER read more than 10 volts, its simple fact.  No matter how many batteries you install, heck, say you install 50 deep cycle batteries in a veh and crank that bass with a bass track on repeat and go on a road trip for a few hours, I am willing to bet that the car wont start after you turn it off. An extra battery will only help in 2 situations 1) as a current source for when the veh is turned off, or 2) as buffer or filter when the charging source is able to supply more than the demand.

Im sure fellow Electrical Engineer's on here can provide a more detailed explaination if you request, were all here as a hobby to help educate and learn, I was once in your position and now im here with only 2 more years of school left and I'll be making the amps people on this site will be frying.

2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
sedate 
Silver - Posts: 1,173
Silver spacespace
Joined: July 03, 2004
Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: November 11, 2006 at 11:50 PM / IP Logged  
Alpine Guy wrote:
That right there is where your assumption of an alternator wont do anything. When you get an alternator re-wound in a stock case there isn't much room to play with so something has to be compromised, aka the idle output.. If you purchase a quality alternator (at least $1 per amp) you wont have that problem. I have always spent good money $300-$400 on alternators and have achieved excellent results.
*Ahem* Actually, if you read my original post in this thread, you would find that this is not at all my assumption, and I did indeed recommend a larger alternator, albiet from a manufacturer like Stinger, or perhaps Mechman as you suggest, to replace his alternator. I would not spend so little on an alternator after my experience with rewound alts.. price quotes for vehicles I've looked at typically are two or three times your above estimate for a quality manufactured alternator. Typically, they have also required expensive and cumbersome mounting brakets as well as moving other things around in my engine to get them to fit.
The orginal POSTER stated that he can't get to his alt to run the + --> battery wire, if this is the case, he is CERTAINLY going to have trouble swapping the thing.. nevermind the irritating cost of such a componet. I was attempting to provide the original poster with an excellent method of solving his problem, while maintaining his ability to actually implement the solution; as larger/more batteries are far easier to install than a new alternator, and, of coures, represents far less in capital outlay. And I maintain he would require a deep cycle battery for optimal system performance.. w/ or w/o an HO alt.
Alpine Guy wrote:
With my mechman alternator I could sit at a stop light with the bass cranked on a bass cd and not get light dimming. (3000WRMS System)
REALLLY??
Sooo.. assuming your amplifiers are perfect machines and output 100% of the power they get (which they don't), you are using 200 - 240 amps of current. So on a 180amp alt (your sig) you using your... wait what... this can't be...
your battery to filter the extra current draw?
Is that what is happening in your car?! I can't believe it! So I am, indeed, correct in everything I've told our poster?!
I thought so.
Alpine Guy wrote:
Now, as for your missunderstanding on how adding more batteries is the answer that is very wrong. If you have time to do so I would study some electrical characteristics, for example how a capacitor charges and discharges in a rectified AC circuit.
Again, you are totally unable to point out where my "misunderstanding" lies. You are just telling me I'm wrong when all my observations, study, and experience dictate otherwise.
Alpine Guy wrote:
A battery can only charge to its source voltage (the alternator), If the alternator is only putting out 10 volts, your battery will NEVER read more than 10 volts, its simple fact.
Which is the underlying problem with an alt that does not produce proper voltage at idle. I never contradicted this or explained otherwise.
Alpine Guy wrote:
say you install 50 deep cycle batteries in a veh and crank that bass with a bass track on repeat and go on a road trip for a few hours, I am willing to bet that the car wont start after you turn it off.
This belies common sense and doesn't really matter anyway in the application I'm discussing. I already acknowledged that if you make a dedicated effort to overrun the batteries, the attempt would be successful. For normal vehicle operation however, assuming his listening habits are not what you just described (whose are?), larger energy capacity WILL solve this posters problem, if done in the right way. I'm assuming the stereo will not be at maximum output at all times of vehicle operation. Arguing otherwise would just be silly.
Alpine Guy wrote:
An extra battery will only help in 2 situations 1) as a current source for when the veh is turned off, or 2) as buffer or filter when the charging source is able to supply more than the demand.
No, no. Using to Ohm's Law and simple math, we can confirm that indeed, the battery can also be used "as buffer or filter when the charging source is unable to supply more than the demand."
We can prove this by simple observation.
In this case we would observe you, in your car, at a stoplight, listening to your 3000wrms/200-some-amp stereo off your 180 amp alternator that is seeing idle speed at its crank, so its really making something like 100 amps.
How's that? Your BATTERY.
Alpine Guy wrote:
Im sure fellow Electrical Engineer's on here can provide a more detailed explaination if you request
We'll see. I was antagonizing Steven Kephart about this on another thread but he hasn't gotten back yet.
Alpine Guy wrote:
I was once in your position and now im here with only 2 more years of school left and I'll be making the amps people on this site will be frying.
Really? In two more years I'll be the lawyer you hire when your amp catches fire and kills someone.severe voltage drop, bad alternator? - Page 4 -- posted image.
"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
astro88 
Copper - Posts: 195
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 01, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 10:51 AM / IP Logged  
One last question. Could i be ruining my amp by not supplying proper current to it or is it just safely limited output wattage determened by the power im giving it?
astro88 
Copper - Posts: 195
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 01, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 3:13 PM / IP Logged  
The reason i ask is becuse the output dosent sound good,is this only due to the input voltage lacking
I rearranged my system some today t i went to a lower wattage set up until i can upgrade the electrical system.
I had a punch 45 HD laying around and i bridged it to 2 ohms (my L7 12) in a ported to 28hz box and its way louder than the 1200.1 pushing the two re's, now im afraid i may have damaged the amp?
The re's are in a sealed enclosure 0.77 cft per sub. Even when i wired them at 4 ohms the output was nowere near what my low watt set up is now? im confused......
I much appreciate all of the input in this post as ive learned some helpfull knowledge!
When i do upgrade it will be with a ho alternater paired with a yellowtop.
sedate 
Silver - Posts: 1,173
Silver spacespace
Joined: July 03, 2004
Location: Colorado, United States
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 4:35 PM / IP Logged  
astro88 wrote:
The reason i ask is becuse the output dosent sound good,is this only due to the input voltage lacking
I rearranged my system some today t i went to a lower wattage set up until i can upgrade the electrical system.

Amplifiers today generally have circuitry that shut them off when the input voltage drops below ~10v or so..  You ought not hear distorted output, rather, output for a few seconds, then nothing, then a few more seconds of output.  I'd be suprised if you damaged the amp itself.. you'd need a bad ground or shorting wires or something like that to damage the amp. 

astro88 wrote:
I had a punch 45 HD laying around and i bridged it to 2 ohms (my L7 12) in a ported to 28hz box and its way louder than the 1200.1 pushing the two re's, now im afraid i may have damaged the amp? The re's are in a sealed enclosure 0.77 cft per sub. Even when i wired them at 4 ohms the output was nowere near what my low watt set up is now? im confused......  

Not really suprised here... you amplifier really doesn't have all that much to do with total output..  you're re's are in REALLY small enclosures, sealed, and they're only 10's.  The cone area on that L7 has got to be almost as much as the 2x10's..those square subs really move more air than comparative round subs.  Nevermind the fact that the box is ported... a huge increase in volume and output right there alone.  Always remember astro, your enclosure has FAR MORE to do with output/sq than ANY OTHER factor in your system... save possibly the shape/size of the vehicle itself.  Air movement is what produces sound, and the shape/design of your box goes the farthest to influence this.

Anyway, point being, if you didnt' kill your alt or battery with all your tribulations, I don't see how you could've hurt your amp.

I'd get/build a different box for those 10's anyway..  maybe ~2cft, tuned to 30 - 35hz....   but as the two different sub configurations stand, the L7 would require considerably less power to get considerably lounder.

"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
Mad Scientists 
Silver - Posts: 380
Silver spacespace
Joined: February 07, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 6:11 PM / IP Logged  

Some thoughts while reading this thread..

Alternator rating is *max* output.. which typically doesn't happen at idle. Most alternators also can't output max rated output for long without overheating and failing..

Starting current for a car is generally 100+ amps or more.. the rule of thumb I use is 1 amp for each cu in of engine displacement. A 3.4 liter engine would draw approximately 150-200 amps.

When system voltage is 12.8v and higher, no current is flowing out of the battery. The alternator is supplying all the power required by the vehicle. The battery only supplies current when system voltage drops to approximately 12.4v.. this means that from 14v down to 12.4v the alternator is doing all the work. Once 12.4v is attained, the battery starts draining. While a larger battery bank will help maintain higher voltage during times when the alternator isn't capable of supply the needed power, the larger battery bank does place more of a load on the alternator when recharging. Some alternator manufacturers recommend sizing the battery bank to no more than 2x the max alternator output. Example would be a 100a alternator should be hooked to a battery bank with a capacity no greater than 200 Ah. (in contrast, whereas a battery will not provide power until system voltage drops to 12.4v or so, a capacitor supplies power as soon as the voltage drops to less than what the capacitor is charged to)

Battery voltage and alternator voltage are the same.. less any voltage drop in the wiring.

While it was an acceptable method to check an alternator/generator in older vehicles to disconnect the battery with the engine running (if the engine continued to run then the alternator is good) on todays vehicles there stands a real good chance of smoking electronics due to the possibility of voltage spikes (due to the loss of the damping effect of the battery)

to address astro88's situation directly, if the alternator is working properly and the wiring is sound, then you are probably using more power then the alternator is capable of providing. You are correct that by installing a larger battery bank you load the alternator more; your best solution would be to either reduce the power draw or increase the power output of the charging system. However, if by your comment that the lights dim with the blinker on (assuming the stereo is off) then this indicates a possible problem elsewhere.. voltage drop measurements would be critical at this point to establish that the wiring is in good condition.

Any questions?..

Jim

astro88 
Copper - Posts: 195
Copper spacespace
Joined: December 01, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 7:14 PM / IP Logged  
Mad Scientists wrote:
to address astro88's situation directly, if the alternator is working properly and the wiring is sound, then you are probably using more power then the alternator is capable of providing. You are correct that by installing a larger battery bank you load the alternator more; your best solution would be to either reduce the power draw or increase the power output of the charging system. However, if by your comment that the lights dim with the blinker on (assuming the stereo is off) then this indicates a possible problem elsewhere.. voltage drop measurements would be critical at this point to establish that the wiring is in good condition.
The lights dim still with the punch 45hd but hardly noticable at this point,im still amazed at the power this little gems putting out lol.
As for dimming with blinkers on,yes still doing it,stereo off.
I havent yet checked the resistance on the ground path, i will as soon as i get a chance(seems this stupid car is all i live for these days.
(sedate) As for the sealed re's compared to the l7 ported,ya i know about l7s lol thats why i bought it. I ve came up with a ported box plan for my re's from the winld whatever program 1.25 cf @ 34 hz as re suggests,hope that helps output,kinda took a chance buying re(never even heard of em b4.
Alpine Guy 
Platinum - Posts: 2,478
Platinum spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: October 18, 2003
Location: Canada
Posted: November 12, 2006 at 10:28 PM / IP Logged  

sedate wrote:
Alpine Guy wrote:
With my mechman alternator I could sit at a stop light with the bass cranked on a bass cd and not get light dimming. (3000WRMS System)
REALLLY??
Sooo.. assuming your amplifiers are perfect machines and output 100% of the power they get (which they don't), you are using 200 - 240 amps of current. So on a 180amp alt (your sig) you using your... wait what... this can't be...
your battery to filter the extra current draw?
Is that what is happening in your car?! I can't believe it! So I am, indeed, correct in everything I've told our poster?!
I thought so. 

At the time I had that stereo I was running a 225 amp Mechman alternator with a smaller pulley as recommended by them for my motor, which is why it ran so well, just wanted to add that

However I do have to confess I didn't thoroughly real all the posts to get your complete understanding of the plan at hand.

2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Page of 5

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Saturday, April 20, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer