Head Unit Opinions

evanc] wrote:

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The features that the Pioneer has far surpass what the Eclipse can give you for the same price, and the sound quality difference has always been minimal in my listening situations.

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What features are these?  The 8454 is a pretty full featured head unit by my book.

I give two big thumbs up for Eclipse.  I've never owned a Pioneer, but my Eclipse beats the heck out of the similarly priced Clarions and Panasonic decks I have owned. 

Well I currently own both an Eclipse 5442 and a Pioneer 9200R.

The Pioneer blows the Eclipse away. As a matter of fact I put a Pioneer 6400 in my wifes car and I think that is nicer than the Eclipse.

The features are way better on the Pioneer and with the Eclipse it always makes this stupid scraping noise with cds playing.

Yes I know the Pioneer is a higher end model, but its older and Eclipse is "supposed" to be of higher standard. (Right)

If youre considering a Pioneer youve already made the right choice in my book. Eclipse units are not worth the money.

BTW, why is it that people are saying Eclipse is such a great unit anyways? There far behind in the features department.

Just my 2cents.

JoulesWinfield wrote:

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If youre considering a Pioneer youve already made the right choice in my book. Eclipse units are not worth the money.  BTW, why is it that people are saying Eclipse is such a great unit anyways? There far behind in the features department.  Just my 2cents.

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That's because those of us who appreciate the best available sound quality usually give less than a fig about so-called "features."  Pioneer etc. load up on "features" like animated displays, motorized face-plates and seven-zone auto-EQ at the expense of using quality pre-amps, optical pick ups, D/A converters, etc.  Eclipse, Nakamichi, Denon, etc. put their development money into the electronics and the CD transport mechanisms, not the bells and whistles.  They are indeed 'worth the money" if their features are what you need.

If you want their type of features, then by all means buy Pioneer/Kenwood/Sony.  They make some very fine heads.  But it's comparing apples to oranges when you compare them to audiophile-quality high SQ decks.

Is a laser sled that is tuned to resonate at 19hz and not 55 hz not a worthwhile feature. This is a great cause of many people saying "the bass makes my cd player skip". Just one of the things that the meat and potatoes lines do not do that Eclipse does. Mind you they don't really list this feature either (as important as it is).

evanc] wrote:

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n your opinion, is it worth sacrifising the ease of use, as well as the extra money spent on higher quality amplifiers to go from a Pioneer to an Eclipse? Is the difference in the Eclipse brand going to make that much of a difference to justify that?

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For me, yes, definately.  I will never own anything built by Pioneer (except maybe for one of their Elite HDTV projection monitors.)   It is not worth it to everyone, and that's fine.

it's essentially going to boil down to SQ vs. Bells & Whistles

the higher end SQ units ( Eclipse, Nak, etc, etc ) will usually pare down the features to give you a very basic unit with awesome sound quality ( my old Audio Design preamp/power amp combo had a volume control... thats all, the only control on the entire unit was a volume control.... and it sounded great )

whereas the "Bells and Whistles" manufacturers will load the heck out of their units with features, while unfortunately in many cases, sacrificing sound quality.... it's up to the consumer to chose the unit that's right for them.....

Most cd players as you know are built to hit the price point, looks first, bells and whistles second and then the internal guts. We know that a base model mid-fi line cd player usually has the same laser sled, pickup, tuner, amplifier etc, but differ in the bells and whistle dept. Most of these companies build their equipment to be sold in the area that most people purchase in. Marketing 101. If you build it they will come. Remember how they concentrate on the build though, hit the price point.

Now these manufacturers also realize that over 80% of their head unit business is the guy with a deck and 2 or a deck and 4, thus they do not use acoustic hairdryers that can suck air out of your lungs or make you crap your pants. It's these people that we need to concentrate on a little closer when we are selling to them. Laser sled resonatation is just like a panel resonating. If the panel is resonating behind a speaker, we add mass to it to keep it from resonating and screwing up our sound. No more can of angry bees in our door for example. In the case of a laser sled, most manufacturers have sled that resonate between 45-75 hz. For the Average Joe this is no issue at all. For a serious sub system it is.

Think of the number of times you have heard a customer complain that his bass is skipping the cd player. Lots, especially for us older dudes. This was far more likely way back in the day as compared to now but still happens all the time. Lets say that the laser sled in your cd player has a resonant frequency of 53hz. We all know a sub can hit 53 hz. Most cd players will take this no problem. If the amplitude though is great enough at this freqency, it will amplify that particular frequency in the laser sled and cause a skip. Two waves reinforcing each other is what it comes down to. Similar to two identical subs vs. one.

Where Eclipse differs is they tune their laser sled to 19hz, into the subharmonics of the frequency spectrum. If your sub system is playing at these frequencies, I for one would not want to be in that vehicle, for the amplitude of the frequency being played that would cause the skip would be seriously detrimental to my hearing. The chance of a skip happening at 19hz vs where the mid -fi manufacturers tune there sleds, I'll take an Eclipse. Just one of the reasons behind the scenes.

Be carefeul young skywalker, the shwartz is strong in you. This can be viewed as the Jedi mind trick. While it is true, it should not be the sole basis of a decison to purchase a cd player (unless everyone buys from Rob). A simple well explained circumstance is all that some people need to make an educated and informed buying decision. Like I said above "In the case of a laser sled, most manufacturers have a sled that resonates between 45-75 hz. For the Average Joe this is no issue at all. For a serious sub system it is." This is where you fit in and would push me towards one of a couple of cd players.

A really old school Panasonic Rebel Gear, the new MB Quart NRA 450 or an Eclipse. In my opinion the Eclipse will sound better by faaaaaaaaaaaar. However the NRA450 has a true 30 second antiskip buffer. I anticipate that once people catch onto this fact that you will see many more of them in the DB drag lanes. Might be something for you to consider as well. I would not be surprised to see both of these decks coming out of the same build factory either. The guts will be different no doubt and will affect performance but the build is great.