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tricking amp with speaker’s impedance

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=42483
Printed Date: May 10, 2024 at 6:27 AM


Topic: tricking amp with speaker’s impedance

Posted By: bullman96
Subject: tricking amp with speaker’s impedance
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 1:45 AM

i have an amp that puts out 400watts at 2ohms. i am thinking of a jl10w7 which is rated for 500rms and has a 3ohm voice coil. is there any way to "trick" the amp into thinking that there is another sub that doesnt take any power? i would assume that there isnt but a lot of you guys know much more than i. also, with the amp i have, will the w7 be able to put out as much volume as a w6 would?



Replies:

Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 3:35 AM
Just run it at 3ohms. The small increase in power you'll get won't make much of a difference. Remember, you need to DOUBLE power to get only a 3db increase in volume. The volume between the w6 and w7 will be very similar given your power. One is 84 db sensitive, the other is 83. You might want to consider going with a ported box as ported boxes require less power.



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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: bullman96
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 2:38 PM
i was thinking more along the lines of bringing it down to 1.5ohms. that would be a very decent increase in power. would this be possible with a resistor?




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 2:53 PM
No.  There is no way to "trick" an amplifier.  It will deliver whatever current it is capable of into whatever load is presented to it.  If you were to add a 3-ohm resister in parallel with the speaker, the amp would deliver whatever it can into the net 1.5 ohm load, but half of it would go to the speaker and half would be burned up as heat by the resister, giving you a net gain of HEAT.  Just conenct your speaker to your amplifier, set your gain properly and go.  If you need "more," get a new amp.

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Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 2:54 PM

First it wouldn't increase power to the sub.  Second, even if it did it would at most double the power output of the amplifer and give you a 3db increase in SPL.  3db is not a lot.  Third, the amplifier would run strained and more distortion would be greater.  Again though, it doesn't work this way - as DYOhn just said, you can't do it.  The quote below should show you why. 

Don't be so hung up with power, you don't need to match rms speaker ratings for the system to be loud and sound good.  If you're into SPL and you want every little db out of the system then, sorry to say, you simply need to buy another amplifier.  If you listen to your music at normal levels, you should be just fine.

See this page:  https://www.bcae1.com/resistrs.htm from https://www.bcae1.com/

 "Using Resistors to Increase an Amplifier's Power Output

As we found earlier on this page, a resistor can be used to dissipate power. Some people believe that they will have an increase in system SPL if they reduce the amplifier load's impedance with resistors. The fact is, the SPL will likely be reduced. Just because the amplifier is producing more power, it does NOT mean the SPL will increase. The reason? The extra power is dissipated in the form of heat and produces no audio. The reason that the SPL will likely drop is because the amplifier's internal power supply will lose some rail voltage with the lower impedance load (the loss may not be significant on amps with highly regulated power supplies). When the rail voltage drops, the output power to the speaker drops. Even if you have an amplifier with a regulated power supply and the power to the speakers doesn't fall, the amplifier will draw more current and run hotter.

In the following diagram, you can see a few different things:
  • You can see that the amplifier is producing almost twice the power with the resistor in parallel with the load.
  • The rail voltage is reduced with the heavier load.
  • The power to the speaker is reduced because less rail voltage is available.
  • The current draw has more than doubled. It is more than twice due to inefficiencies within the amplifier.
  • The amplifier will run hotter because of more voltage drop across and more current through all of the semiconductors."


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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: bullman96
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 3:45 PM
thanks for the help guys.  i had thought that would be the case. how far from the 10w7's full potential will i be?




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 3:56 PM
Best thing to do is look at your amp's rating at 2 ohm, and at 4 ohm, and find the difference between the two to give you a pretty close indication of power output into a 3 ohm load.  Looking at the sub manual, it will perform comfortably beginning at about 250 watts, but will not perform to it's full potential until about 500 watts.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.




Posted By: jeffchilcott
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 7:03 PM
The w7's will take well beyond 1000 watts of true power, please tell us the amp you want to run this sub on?

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
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Posted By: bullman96
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 9:49 PM
i have a jl e1400d. it has 240rms at 4ohms and 400 at 2ohms. both with 12.5 volts. should i be ok?




Posted By: jeffchilcott
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 10:08 PM
Well a little underpowered in my opinion, but it will run

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place




Posted By: quick4321
Date Posted: November 08, 2004 at 10:47 PM
Two questions, I saw it writen above that 3db isnt that much of a gain. I was under the impression that a 3db gain was received by the ear as twice as loud? Is this not true? Also i ran some high current amps back in the day that I needed to get the ohm load under 1ohm to get maximal power. The guy who sold me the amps said there was a device I could buy to accpomlish this (a device that would lower the ohms to give speakers more power) but it was somewhat pricey, does it exist? Are either of the two things Ive heard in the past true?




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 12:10 PM
1) No, a 3db gain is not perceived by the ear as twice as loud. You'll see different textbooks say different things. 6-10db is 2x as loud. More textbooks I've seen list 10db as twice as loud. But even if you decide to say 6db is twice as loud, you'd say, "Well, 3db is 1/2 of 6db, so it must make the sound much louder." - Wrong again, most textbooks will also say that 3db is not much louder at all. Some even say the average ear is barely able to perceive this change. This all might sound rather inconsistent, but we perceive volume on a logarithmic scale, so it takes many times louder measured sound for us to perceive a significant volume change. i.e. at least a 4x increase in power to perceive a 2x difference (if you accept that 6db is perceived as 2x as loud).

So, no - 3db is not twice as loud. If you're competing this is huge - because a machine does the measurement. If you're building a system for daily driving, it probably doesn't matter much. If you are already throwing a few hundred watts at a sub, increasing the power by less than double (i.e. stepping from a 300w amp to a 500w amp) won't really do much for you. On the other hand, if you want to make a huge difference in SPL, you really need to throw much more power at the subwoofer. i.e., jumping from 300w to 1200w would be twice as loud, assuming your subwoofer can handle it. But at this point you're beyond where you'd be for daily driving anyway. If you throw 1200w at a sub in a car, and actually listen at that level, you're in serious danger of damaging your hearing more every time you step into the car.

2) DYohn, I was also wondering about this question after reading this page re transformers: https://www.bcae1.com/trnimpmt.htm
My guess is that it is nearly impossible to find the correctly sized transformer for this application, short of winding your own. - probably why you heard it was pricey.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 12:55 PM

Using a transformer to balance a load on an amplifier is common, such as in 70-volt professional sound systems.  The falacy of the example given in the page you referenced is a transformer that doubles the voltage also cuts the current in half.  So, with the same input voltage and current (what your amp can produce) using a transformer to double the voltage will cut the current in half so you end up with the SAME net power.  You cannot create energy from nothing.  10 watts in will create 10 watts out, just at a different voltage and current level.  (Actually, due to magnetic inertia, hysteresis losses and heat, the power output will always be slightly LESS than the total power input.)



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Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 1:25 PM
re: the loudness discussion.  In general, an increase of 1db is by definition "noticable".  An increase of 10db is perceived as "twice as loud."  It often requires 10X the amplifier power to achieve this, or 3000 watts to sound twice as loud as 300 watts (assuming the same sound is being perceived from the same loudspeakers.)  Two sources producing equal loudness added together generate an average perceived increase of +3db.  Thus, two loudspeakers being supplied the same tone at the same relative power level will generate net SPL of approximately +3db greater than either one alone.

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Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 2:45 PM
DYohn, excellent, thank you for clarifying both points. I continue to learn more from you and this board every week.

kfr

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: customsuburb
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 5:21 PM
you will be getting at least 400 watts or so from the JL e1400D even at three ohms because it is pretty underrated.

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Posted By: quick4321
Date Posted: November 09, 2004 at 11:45 PM

You all dont mess aroudn with your answers. Thanks for clarifing everything. Did anyone get a chance to read about the device I was asking about the made an amp run at a lower ohm load to supply a speaker with more power? Does it simply not exist, or even if it did it is imposible to acheive more power without loseing it the gained power in the process? (new power becomes heat). Thanks again!





Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: November 10, 2004 at 1:03 AM
DYohn answered this question I believe. Whether using a resistor or a transformer, it is not possible.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: quick4321
Date Posted: November 10, 2004 at 2:24 AM
Thats what I thought, but I swear I rememer this shop owner telling me about a device he could order for me that would lower the OHM load of the amp. (Really dosent matter anymore since I dont run High current amps anymore) There was nothing better than pounding 3 10" DVC subs and being rated at 25wx2. :)




Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: November 10, 2004 at 12:21 PM

 it just be easier and less of a headache to just sell what you have and go buy what u are looking for? just make sure u match your amp and subs correctly this time if you want max output

its stupid to try and 'trick' the amp, it actually pointless....



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Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 10, 2004 at 12:29 PM

quick4321 wrote:

Thats what I thought, but I swear I rememer this shop owner telling me about a device he could order for me that would lower the OHM load of the amp. (Really dosent matter anymore since I dont run High current amps anymore) There was nothing better than pounding 3 10" DVC subs and being rated at 25wx2. :)

Hey, I'll be happy to sell you a whole box of this stuff.  It's called "Magiconium" and only costs $199!  Send me your Visa card number and I'll fix you right up.  :)

There are lots of actual devices that will "lower the ohm load on an amp" and produce meaningful sound in your car.  They're called loudspeakers.



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Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: November 10, 2004 at 12:34 PM
What is this stuff? Show me a site with info, dyohn. or are u just making it up? lol

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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp





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