Parametric EQ

I am interested in incoroporating a parametric EQ. So how many bands would suffice. What brands. what are the cost ranges? I am currently running an Alpine cda-7977 an alpine mrv-f407 4 channel, some soon to be upgrded pioneer components perhaps to some rainbows or quarts. Some alpine 6x9s and a mtx 1000d w/ two 12" mtx 7500's. what am i going to benifit from an eq?

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Well, you were the one talking about the harshness of different domes earlier. Upon investigation you might learn that the harshness is being caused by a peak in the 8-12khz range. A simple narrow notch down 3db might do it for you. You may be totally pleased with the sound after using that one band of eq. On the other hand, if you want to get things totally flat with the help of a real time analyzer, it'll probably take 5 or more bands.

I originally thought I'd try to flatten out the response using an RTA and an EQ. Let me tell you this. It is WAY harder than it looks / seems / sounds. Every notch also effects adjacent bands. After many hours of frustration my strategy changed to simply removing a couple peaks. I only ended up using a couple bands of PEQ. My RTA doesn't read flat, but I cured the major problems and it sounds good.

Having said that, I would always buy the best possible front midrange / high speakers I could. Don't even consider buying the pioneers and "fixing" them to make them sound like the rainbow speakers. It just won't happen. I frankly wish I would have spent more time researching my midrange / high purchase. I probably would have saved a little extra for the Quart Q series.

In other words, if your choice is between the pioneer + expensive eq or the rainbow / quart with no eq, there's no contest... buy the best mains you can.

If you really do want an eq the ones from AudioControl are excellent. Also, don't buy a crap eq. Many of the cheap in-dash eqs out there, especially the few band graphic ones, aren't really going to be that good at actually helping you fix a problem - and in many cases just add another place noise can enter the system.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Thank you very much. This is more than a start for me now. I might mention the pioneers are already installed, so no matter what, I will upgrade. I have seen many ads fro audio control eq's and realize what you are talking about as far as adjusting them however. thanks

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what about digital ones? they are more money whats the benefit of digital, wouldnt that decrease sq?

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Probably about the same sq. The real advantage is simply a larger freature set. Many times they come with user memory, a couple bands of PEQ, etc.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Are you wanting TRUE parametric equalization? Your best bet IS INDEED, digital. Try Alto, and look at their trunk mount, set it and forget it systems. I use two of the UCSPros in my trunk, one for the sub, and one for the three way system in the doors... This is awesome gear - Yes, even better than Nakamichi (there's a jab, let's see if anybody catches it)

You may have to join their forums, but ask there where you can find a dealer in your area. Like Eclipse,you can ONLY buy it thru a dealer if you want a warranty. Do not try to acquire the stuff via eBay.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

Try the Audio Control DQX.  I own one & it truly does allow it's user to fine tune a system.  As always though, a good sounding system starts with a good game plan.  Don't expect to install a couple of coaxials in the factory locations, power them with an amplifier & shape the sound with an EQ & expect to win SQ competitions.  My preferred method is to start with a high quality head unit, add a multi-band parametric equalizer, fabricate a pair of kick panels with a focal point aiming mid level in the center of the vehicle, install a nice set of component speakers into them, & feed them with a high quality, high power (too much power is better than not enough if you know the speaker's limitations) amplifier.  Tune it by ear.  Best way to tune by ear is to attend a live concert ( I enjoyed the 3 Doors Down show.  The sound quality is probably the best I have ever heard for a rock band.), listen very carefully to the instruments & the vocals taking mental notes on how they sound.  Next, obtain the CD from the band you just heard ASAP as time is of the essence to "remember & recreate" the sound.  After making your settings, either write them down or save them to memory on your EQ.  Then check your settings with an RTA using pink noise from a test disc & see how flat your setting is.  I always check this on my personal system & if there are any major (3db or more per band) I try to flatten the curve to less than 3 db increment per band.  I am a sound quality enthuisiast & love to share my ideas with anyone willing to listen.  I enjoy a good sounding system that is crystal clear whether it is my own or someone else's.  To me, nothing compares to it.  By the way, the DQX has the capability to make any system sound perfect as long as quality products are used & professionally installed.  Yes, the DQX is more costly than any modest head unit on the market, but it is well worth it in the right hands.

I looked into Audio Control equipment and was considering a the EQ line or the EQS specifically. The DQX would set me back $500. I don't know if prepared to do this considering I haven't even bought my front comp. set yet. The amp could certainley be upgraded, before the DQX I think. I am also a little concerned with mayching my needs to price. The lesser EQS would be more reasonable as I am not looking to compete, but at this point I find that buying lower end stuff always makes want the higher end stuff. My equipment I have now has been pieced together through various locations, most of it at cost. So i remain patient in my goals. I would be very gracious to hear more though, I recently thought of the kick panel set up too. 

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

*throw up*

What?

Nak doesn't produce anything that does what the Alto or AudioControl units being talked about do ... period...

How can you recommend them when they don't even make the same products?  Do you have any experience with any of these products?  ... or do you just have an unconditional hard-on for nakamichi? 

I'm sorry, I know they make a great top-end cd player.... but it is flat out foolish to assume that everything else needs to be, "superb beyond belief" just to meet Nakamichi. 

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Dwarren, unlike most peoples suggestions here, i bought myself and indash - 4band Phoenix gold parametric eq. I have not regretted buying a 'lower end' EQ to this day. Not often do i have people in your car and someone comments how the music sounds 'perfect'. the EQ helped with this.
even if you do spend only a 100$ (which is what mine cost) you wont be dissapointed. I may have got a 6band indash EQ instead, for the controability, but even now im quite content with what i can do.

dont worry about buying a 500$ eq now if you cant afford it, buying a 100$ eq will save you money, and give you on the learning curve of things so next time you know if you want to go graphic, digital, or just a higher end parametric.

HTH

Well this getting better by each reply. I am happy to hear people defend their opionions so fervently. I think I may go with a used audio control model, that may be considerable less than a new one. 

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Here's your specs... And as far as most of us are concerned, we KNOW you have a perpetual hard-on for Nak stuff, but I PROMISE you, as good as it might be now, or at one time WAS, it is not nor has it ever been the end-all-be-all of car stereo gear... Try something else - open your mind a little bit.

Specifications:
Inputs: 2 RCA phono. Outputs: 6 RCA phono
Max. Input / Output Level: Inputs 2V rms / Outputs 2.2V rms (0dB)
Input & Output Gain adjustment: -30 / +6dB, 0.5 dB steps
Channel Separation: >100dB, 20Hz–20KHz
Frequency Response: 20Hz-20KHz (+/- 1dB)
Signal to Noise Ratio: >95dBA
THD+N: 0.05%, 20Hz–20KHz
Conversion: Burr-Brown 20-bit a/d and 24-bit d/a
Interfaces:
   - 9-pin RS232 for PC Connection (software requires MS Windows® 98/ME/XP-OS)
   - 25-pin connector for optional UCSPRO-RM2 remote programmer
Crossover Filters: High-Pass & Low-Pass
   - Filter Characteristic: Bessel, Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley (selectable)
   - Filter Slope: selectable 6, 12, 18, 24, 48dB/octave
EQ Filters (Input/Output channels):
   - Number of Bands: Up to 40
   - Gain: +/- 15dB, 0.5dB step
   - Frequency: 15.6Hz to 16KHz
   - Bandwidth (Q): 0.05 to 3 octaves, 0.05 oct. step
Channel Delay (Time Alignment on all outputs): 0 - 291 ms, min. step 21us
Dynamic Compressor: Variable Threshold, Attack & Release, per output channel
Operating Voltage: 11 - 16V DC (negative ground only)
Presets: 1 Factory preset, 64 user-definable
Width (including mounting brackets): 229 mm (excluding): 205 mm
Depth (including power connector, phonos & 25-pin connector): 190 mm (excl.): 175 mm
Height: 41 mm
Certification: (E1) 10 R - 023484

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

Well its got the 20bit DAC, the same as my CD-45z, the 24 Bit though is nice. I am still open to all, but Nak still ranks supreme on my list. Look at that THD (0.05) BAH! Nakamichi doesn't sport anything above 0.01 haha. Unless you go into some of their low low impedance amps. I believe that the PA8001 gets around 0.05 when you bring it down to the 1 ohm, but at 4 nominal you get <0.01%THD. I'm impressed by the specs though. Specs don't mean everything, but i'd love to see that thing!

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

If you'll read that again, you will notice that the analog to digital conversion is 20-bit, but the conversion BACK to analog IS your 24-bit. They did this - 1) to save cost, the 20-bit conversion is less expensive than the 24-bit conversion, and it's S/N ratio is FAR beyond anything analog - even Nakamichi. If I am not mistaken, 20 bits of resolution provides 120dB of signal to noise ratio, and I have never seen a S/N ratio that high on ANY head unit. If I am not mistaken again, the maximum theoretical limit of analog room temperature signal to noise ratio is 114dB - anything beyond that is an inflated spec. (Not EVEN Nakamichi goes that high, and it would be a total waste to go any higher than that in the car anyway.) and - 2) anytime you have a digital bit stream, you will be better off converting it to analog at a higher rate than it was converted TO digital. It will keep the noise down AND minimize quantization errors. What are quantization errors? - Put simply, it's what makes MP3 sound like MP3 - the hashy, metallic distortion you always hear in the highest frequencies.

You are right, specs do not tell the whole story, and if they DID tell the whole story, nobody would buy turntables with platters turned of solid granite, weighing in a around 250 pounds with air bearings and completely separate motor castles, spaced over a foot from the primary platter base. Delivered and installed by the builder (who lives and works in India, BTW, and only sells 50 units a year - that's one a week) for $180,000, or pay $125,000 for 60 watts of dual monoblock pure class-A, hand wound silver output transformer tube amplification... the Gaku-Oh by Audio Note of Japan. Ever heard of them? (Yes, I *DO* know audio, there is no "thinking" about it.) The distortion of this amplifier is well beyond .5 percent - an order of magnitude above what you consider acceptable, yet people spend more than some houses are worth to get them. How about Accuphase? (8) 24-bit parallelled DAC boards in one chassis, with an external power supply - I think it was about $35k when I saw it last - no longer available... I think they have abandoned the outboard DAC, or the Class-A 50 by them. 50 watts of pure class-A amplification for $15K. Tact Audio, with a 300 watt pure digital power amplifier, that has NEVER once been compared to Nakamichi gear, because Nakamichi is not even in the same CLASS - 2500 bux for 300 watts. Granted these are all "tweako" items, and I'll personally never own one, (except the TacT amplifier) but the point is, they do exist, and I doubt you'll ever own any of them, either, whether you want them or not.

Below are a couple of links to webpages that I have referred to in this post - I am too lazy to make them links, so you'll all have to copy and paste them into your own browser window... so shoot me... I realize all of the items I mentioned above are for home use, but the point is that I do know audio, whether it is for home or car. I'm sorry, but there it is. I suggested you open your mind to other stuff, and it sure seemed as though you were NOT going to do so, so I opened it for you. Gotta be cruel to be kind, I think some wise man once said...

https://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/music/burnette/MUS570A/Terms.htm
https://www.audionote.co.jp/
https://www.accuphase.com/
https://www.tactlabs.com/

Just as one more quick addition of a company that very few people have heard of, yet VERY highly respected in the audiophile community - Wisdom Audio (Tom Bohlender of Bohlender-Graebner fame is a personal friend of mine) - Below is a link to the speaker system I have in my very own living room, with Adcom and NAD amplification running it, and custom 48dB per octave crossovers, that I built myself - both the crossover electronics and the enclosures. A dedicated, custom modified and filtered 1.5 amp power supply powers them, about 30 times the required current to run them - also custom built by me.

https://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_adrenaline_m50.html

STILL WANNA HELP OUT?!?! - Sam Kinison, RIP

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

uthinkuknoaudio wrote:

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Look at that THD (0.05) BAH! Nakamichi doesn't sport anything above 0.01 haha

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Do you honestly think humans can hear that difference?  I'll answer for you.  You can't.

Anyway, the point is that Nak doesn't DO the stuff that the AudioControl and Alto units do.  It simply doesn't do it.  Who cares what the THD is when the unit simply doesn't have the right features?

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

I use a Pro version, similar to the Alto, made by Lake Electronics and love the flexibilty. It's great being able to change time aligment, adjust eq settings and crossover slopes from the listening position. So much easier than the old days getting in and out of the seat and trunk trying to get it right! The days of the USD/Rane EQ/Xover days are fading. It is easy to overprocess! So many tools to play with, sometimes problems are created where one was solved. A dead flat RTA is wonderfull but what has all the processing done to the sound quality? Ears and personal taste deside the end result.

Maybe I missed something: I looked at Nak's site and didn't find any eq's parametric or otherwise. Almost all the models they offer are only available for the Asian Market. How did Nak appear under EQ's? Side note, My MB-75 spent most of it's time being jammed and wouln't play anything but regular CD's. Not even sure what happend to it, too frustrated to care. Nak was once the "King of the Hill" that's why Boomhower owns one! (this is an easy one).

haemphyst, a very impressive article. My only exposure to higher end audio is Pass Labs, Boulder, Wilson Audio and Totem acoustics. On paper, who would buy them? Listen to them and the house and car are up for sale. Specs seam to be important to people who believe they are important! A big issue with digital is the lack of distortion. Our ears are accoustomed to certain warmths provided by analogue gear. Just spent $5 Grand on a Manley tube mic pre to add warmth so our records sound like 1" tape again! Not sure what ultra low THD has to do with auto sound where the noise floor is high enough to negate such tweek bennifits?

As we digress, I feel that there is no one piece of equipment that will solve everything let alone is there anything that is perfect sounding. Some stuff may come a little closer to this area but it isn't possible. The most important thing I find to do with this business is to experiment with stuff until it meets my expectations. I think everyone who listed a response has done this for themselves and found things that come close to perfection for themselves. Now when I see a number of informed idividuals leaning toward a particular product this might be sign that there is well designed and generally good product available. uthinkukno seems confident in nak stuff, perhaps considering it the best might be jumping the gun, but I see it as a good match for his taste, so i wouldn't knock it. only use it to my advantage. thanks every one! 

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Hey, I have acess to an audio control EQL. A shop owner/friend has one used, I might offer $100 how does that sound? I think retail is about $190. what would you guys expect to pay for a used one.

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Try it. You won't find a better deal.

That unit gives great control over the bass frequencies, but above the bass frequencies it only allows entire octave control.

Whether it serves all your present and future needs depends on your EQing goal.

If you decide you need more control you can always upgrade later. If I were you I'd go w/ that one and use the money saved for some sort of laptop based RTA or a good analog SPL meter + 1/3 octave tone cd.



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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

since you mentioned it, what software might I consider? the spl meter is pretty self explanatory, but wouldn't that only measure the "loudness" of the system? how does the meter tie in with the 1/3 octave cd? 

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Well, either you (1) get RTA software like https://www.trueaudio.com/ and a good measurement mic.

Or

(2) you use an SPL meter combined w/ a 1/3 octave cd and manually plot out the frequency response curve.

i.e. sit down w/ graph paper and...
1) play the 80hz tone, record the SPL
2) play the next tone, record the SPL, repeat.

Basically if you don't have a laptop #2 is MUCH cheaper, but takes a long time, you can't see the effect on adjacent bands easily, and simply isn't that accurate.

If you have a laptop go for #1.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

alright now, if you happen to have a link for some mics...

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This Behringer is probably the best buy for the price. The only negative is that you'll need a mic pre-amp w/ phantom power.

If you need a decent sound card, m-audio makes a sound card + pre-amp for a reasonable price here.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Behringer makes some of the finest measuring mics in the world... OK, maybe not THAT good, but for the money you spend on them, GREAT pieces of test gear. Look for the ECM8000

...and if you have a Guitar Center near you, you can get the USBPre for about 149... This is EXACTLY the combo I use, and it didn't cost a ton of cash, but it gives REALLY good results.

I did buy level four for the TrueRTA, so that adds a hundred bucks, but still, for under 300 you have a *REALLY GOOD* RTA, mic and pre-amp system

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

thank you very much!

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