Print Page | Close Window

Box Too Big

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=50806
Printed Date: May 30, 2024 at 5:37 AM


Topic: Box Too Big

Posted By: jjclark15
Subject: Box Too Big
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:13 PM

My friend got his box built by a pro for his 4 10s and when I wired them up the subs werent hitting like he nor i expected them too, they didnt respond to quick beats but they pound real hard at the low frequencies. Could it be the box too big and if yes what can we do? Cause he already paid a pretty penny for that custom box.

-------------
JJ



Replies:

Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:35 PM
MANY questions before anyone can tell you if it's too big or not:  What are the subs?  How large is the enclosure? Are there 4 chambers, 2 chambers, or only one?  Is it sealed or ported or bandpass? If ported, what's the tuning frequency?  And lastly, if he "paid a pretty penny" for the "box," why don't you just go back to the person who built it and ask that they modify it to create the sound you're looking for?

-------------
Support the12volt.com




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:35 PM
What is the crossover set at? What is he running for midbass?

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:35 PM
Did you try calculateing the volume of each chamber?  and what size of box does the company reccomend for your subs?

-------------
2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:40 PM
I'd be willing to bet money the problem isn't the box being too big but is rather a poor transition between bass and midbass. Perceived speed of bass has more to do with harmonics in the upper bass region and into the midbass, correct?

My guess is that 4 10's are really hot relative to the midbass, which is probably totally ignored. The amplifier probably uses a steepish crossover. The result - I bet you have some serious drop off after 70hz or so. The frequencies responsible for the perception of speed are probably severely attenuated relative to the primary bass region.

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 24, 2005 at 11:51 PM
the subs are RF P3 DVC4 and the box is sealed and has all subs sharing a chamber and as for dimensions I dont know exactly what volume or any dimensions of the box is. As for midbass he has none still piecing together system has all components Boston Nx series. And mono amp crossover set at Low pass filter at 80hz, Subsonic at 40hz, freq at 80hz approx and 4 ch crossovers set at 125hz higher thanks guys for the quick response.

-------------
JJ




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:01 AM

Alright.  Turn off the subsonic filter.  You don't need one - ESPECIALLY one that high - with a sealed box. 

And yes, you probably do have a severe hole between the midbass and bass.  (80 to 125).  AND it is probably much larger than that.  I bet your 55hz is MUCH hotter than your midbass, even without the 125hz filter. 

Try running the 10" drivers with the low pass xo at 100hz.  Bump the high pass on the components down to 100hz if you can.

What is the slope of the low pass cross on the amplifier?

My guess is that you've highlighted the problem with 4 10" drivers - you have an unbalanced system. 



-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:03 AM
24db/octave i think

-------------
JJ




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:07 AM

Wow ... yes ... I bet I've identified the problem.  You have a severe gap between the bass and midbass regions.  Remember, at the crossover point you are already 3db down.  By 160hz you are 24db down.  Since the subs are probably much hotter than the midbass you probably have major attenuation from 70 to 200hz. 

Also - just to cover all the bases - make sure none of the woofers are out of phase - this could also cause some problems like this.



-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:12 AM
I am not a pro at this at all so what would be the best solution to his problem I am not to familiar with all the slopes and how they decrease sound staging or bass response so a Lamens(sp ?) term would be appreciated thanks Kfr01

-------------
JJ




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:15 AM
i meant explanation of the solution because I am not sure if he need mid bass drivers or I just need to adjust the crossovers better.

-------------
JJ




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:21 AM

Alright.  Check this out:   https://www.bcae1.com/xovrslop.htm

See how the slope gets much steeper at 24db?  Your friend's system looks like the crossover point there.  Only the points don't match up - one is at 80hz and the other is at 125hz.  And his situation is even worse - because his subwoofers are probably "hot" (more efficient) relative to the midbass drivers under 200hz.



-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:22 AM

Just adjust the crossover..

1)  Turn OFF the subsonic filter
2)  Turn the low pass crossover to the subwoofers HIGHER - to 100hz or so.
3)  Turn the high pass crossover to the midbass LOWER - to 100hz or so. 

The idea is to match the crossover points - like the graph in my previous post.

Let me know if that helps at all. 

And like I said - recheck your wiring.  If one subwoofer moves the wrong direction it could cause cancellation problems.



-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:28 AM
So I need to ajust the crossovers on both amps to meet a about 80 to 125 range. Also on the link you gave me it explained slopes breifly how can I benefit from it or lose from it dont really understand it. I probably need to read up on the basic car audio link huh?

-------------
JJ




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:33 AM
I posted the same time you did sorry. to your reply ok I will adjust tomorrow and see what happens but still would appreciate a explanation of the 24db?octave adjustment But other than that thanks for all the help and I post back tomorrow

-------------
JJ




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:34 AM
Move the crossover point from the subwoofer amp to 100hz.  Tell me if this helps.

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:39 AM

Ok.... a crossover cuts frequencies so the speaker doesn't play them.  It just doesn't stop playing them ---- it reduces at a slope. 

1 Octave is a doubling in frequency....
20 to 40hz .... 40 to 80hz .... 80 to 160 ... etc.

A decibel is the unit used to describe SPL. 
1 db is a very small audible change. 
10db is a doubling of volume to our ears.

The crossover slope describes the decrease in SPL (db) over one octave. 

So, for 6db / octave slope the sound is 6db quieter from say 40-80hz. 
Similarly, from for a 24db slope the sound is 24 db quieter (much more than twice as quiet to our ears) over one octave say from 40-80hz or 80 to 160 hz as the case may be with your friend's setup.

Does this work for you?



-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: jjclark15
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:43 AM
Perfect thanks alot that shoould help a lot when I go back to adjust.

-------------
JJ




Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 25, 2005 at 12:57 AM
God, I must be tierd - so many typos in my last post. 

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder




Posted By: djoxilary
Date Posted: February 26, 2005 at 7:18 PM

I agree with yall solutions but i got one thought. from my previous experiences with multi driver/single chamber boxes that are sealed is that , well its just not good,.Speakers come with a certain size enclosure needed to give the correct air pressure internally in which the speaker can compress. when you got four subs pressing against each other it causes it to not preform up to par. if you feel the box is still big though , or in the future , then try using polyfill ( like for pillows) it causes the resistance inside to increase making to act like a smaller enclosure.

If im just blowing smoke someone tell me please..





Posted By: oonikfraleyoo
Date Posted: February 26, 2005 at 7:23 PM
I thought polyfill did the opposite.

-------------
Nik
Jeeputer Progress
[|||||||||||-] 90%
Check it out.




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: February 26, 2005 at 9:39 PM

djoxilary wrote:

if you feel the box is still big though , or in the future , then try using polyfill ( like for pillows) it causes the resistance inside to increase making to act like a smaller enclosure.

Polyfill does "cause resistance" inside an enclosure, but that makes it behave like it was LARGER, not smaller.



-------------
Support the12volt.com





Print Page | Close Window