Completing a 3-Way Component Set
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=60883
Printed Date: October 31, 2024 at 6:35 PM
Topic: Completing a 3-Way Component Set
Posted By: lakers08
Subject: Completing a 3-Way Component Set
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 2:45 PM
I currently have a set of Jl XR 6.5" components in the front of my 2001 Civic. I would like to add a midbass/midrange driver in a set of kick panels to complete the 3-way setup. Right now, two channels of my Jl amplifier are powering the rear deck speakers; I would like to redirect those channels to run the aforementioned kick panel speakers. There is currently too much output from the rear speakers and I feel I would be better served by running those off of deck power.
A search on 3-way component sets revealed most people feel a 4" driver won't add much in terms of midbass response. I'm wondering what size would be ideal for this particular application (ie: 4", 5.25",6"). It doesn't appear that there's alot of room to mount a larger driver. The speakers will receive approximately 75 watts/RMS each from the amplifier.
In addition, can anyone offer any recommendations as to a good choice for this type of speaker? Local shops only carry the component sets; I'd like to stay between $75-150 in terms of price parameters. Thanks in advance for any help.
Replies:
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 11:10 PM
Either install a 6" sub & use it for midbass and lower and then use the 6" you have for mids (you'll need a new x-over), or start all over with a proper 3 way system (better, but more expensive).
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 10:30 AM
If you're using kick panels you can pretty much mount any size speaker you want. I recomend at least a 6" or 7" for midbass. Any good quality woofer will work. The best sounding woofer I've heard in many years is the new Adire Extremis, but it is out of your price range. You happen to be in luck, as Madisound is having a sale on Audax speakers and they have an amazing price for the VP170G woofer (at the bottom of that page.) At $9 each this is a steal. A good sounding woofer that will add the midbass you are missing. I ordered 4. And like Boulderguy above mentioned, you will need a good crossover, either electronic or passive, so that the new woofer operates in a passband between the sub (about 80Hz) and the component set woofer (about 250Hz to 400Hz) and of course sets a HP for the component set at whatever you choose for the top of the passband. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: lakers08
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 11:14 AM
Wow, that is an astounding price for those Audax speakers. Have you listened to them before or are you familiar with their products? I had been considering a set of CDT 5.25" or 6.5" but they are alot more expensive.
DYohn, a couple of quick questions. You mentioned the need for an additional crossover. My head unit (Eclipse 8454) has an available crossover in "Pro Mode" for those using a 3-way system. Would this be sufficient or will I need an external crossover?
My second question pertains to crossover settings for my current setup. There is a filter control for the front and rear speakers on the Jl 300/4. I currently have the front filter frequency at about 85 Hz (same as sub) with the filter mode switched to "HP." As the components have a passive crossover, should I just switch it to "Off" and send a full-range signal? Thanks.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 11:47 AM
I've used those Audax woofers before (and paid $40 apiece for them.) They sound good, IMO. And at $9 how can you go wrong? Like I said, I ordered 4 just to have them around. Yes, you can use the 3-way crossovr on your HU. A good choice. In your current setup you have the crossover set properly for your components. The passive crossover is designed to split the signal to the woofer and tweeter and must be used in addition to the HP on the amp. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: lakers08
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 12:03 PM
Thanks, DYohn. I'm going to choose either the Audax woofers or the Adire Extremis. Yes, they're a bit out of my price range but so is everything else I bought. Plus, a Canadian dealer for Adire is close by and they're available for pick-up.
On a separate note, I just talked to a local install shop about adding the additional midbass speakers to my 2-way set. He strongly disagreed with my plan; his reasoning was that adding a different brand of speakers with a different efficiency rating would make everything out of phase and "add absolutely nothing to my system." This is contrary to everything I've heard. Your thoughts?
Dave
"lakers08"
Posted By: geepherder
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 12:59 PM
Slap him for wasting a breath. Here's why: A couple mid woofers up front will only help you get better bass response. Even if the midbass isn't the same volume as the components, it will still be an improvement over what you had before. That by itself really isn't even an issue either, because you could always turn the gains a hair down on one amp or the other to solve that. The only reason brand selection would matter is if those speakers would be playing the same frequencies. (For example: Boston Pro 6.5's up front with some MB Quartz coax's in the back. Obviously this wouldn't sound good with the natural, warm sound of the Bostons up front combining with the tinny harshness of the Quartz's in back.) This should not concern you because once you set up your crossover points, your woofers will only be playing sounds below your components, so they will merely complement each other. As far as his claim of "phasing issues", if you observe proper polarity on all your connections you can't go wrong. End of story. ------------- My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.
Posted By: lakers08
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:53 PM
Thanks, geepherder. As much as I like to support the local car audio businesses in my area, most of the time I find the reps don't know what they're talking about. I had tried to explain about the proposed setup and with the different speakers responsible for different frequencies, to no avail.
If I add a woofer for the lower frequencies, what do I do with my passive Jl crossovers? I mentioned earlier in the thread that my head unit has crossover settings for a 3-way system. Do I simply remove them and exclusively use the Eclipse for tweeter, midbass and woofer frequency allocation?
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:57 PM
I agree on smacking the local guy around. But here's my concern - If I'm grasping this right, you're currently running 75wpc to your 6.5" components for midbass & mids and you're talking about adding a second 6-7" midbass driver up front dedicated to midbass & using the existing components just for mids - highs. You want to cross everything over so there's no overlap - that right? I'm just not seeing much gained thru the whole process. Meanwhile you're creating a fairly complex x-over setup. You already have a respectable 6.5 driving your midbass, you're really only talking about seperating the mids from that driver which aren't really that far apart on the food chain anyhow. I think your midbass response will be very similiar to what you have right now, so will the mids. That's given that nothing gets screwed up with the x-overs. I think the real advantage to a 3-way system (not that there's THAT much IMO) is having a smaller mid driver that can be mounted up higher & close to a high-mounted tweeter. As I'm understanding this, you're still keeping your mids positioned down low(?) b/c it's a large driver. It sounds like your best mid-bass improvement would come from running the new mid-bass & keeping the existing midbass as overlap (here come new problems). Or installing an 8" for midbass in a 3-way system. It'd help to know exactly what we're dealing with here - factory kicks or custom? What's the cutout size & depth? How's your midbass as is? Where's the tweeter mounted?
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 1:59 PM
Hey, also - what's your sub setup as well?
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 2:03 PM
And now that I really think about it, what is it that you want to change & why? That is, what's the real objective here - mids, midbass, soundstage or just having a 3-way system? (slept very late today, still trying to get my head around things...)
Posted By: dwarren
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 2:04 PM
Go with an 8" mid-woofer. I am planning on a simialr setup, as I already have a 6.5 comp. set, Boulderguy is right with his point being that you won't gain much with such a similar sized driver here, at least that is what I am getting.
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Posted By: lakers08
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 2:50 PM
I currently have the component set installed in the doors, with the tweeter mounted below the speaker. It's a 2001 Civic, so the mount location is low on the doors. If I were to add kick panels, they'd end up pretty close to where the door speakers are now.
My objective is to achieve more midbass response. I listen to primarily rock music (ie: Foo Fighters) and would like more "upfront" bass. I had originally planned on adding a set of 4" CDT ES400 speakers but I subsequently don't think that it'll solve my dilema. I thought using something like the Adire Extremis or a CDT 6.5" set would alleviate the problem.
I'm open to suggestions and appreciate the counsel of those with more experience and knowledge. If it's more trouble than it's worth, I won't bother and will leave it as is.
P.S.-The sub is a Brahma 15"
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 2:57 PM
Adding a driver dedicated to the mid and upper bass frequencies relives the component set mid driver from having to do double duty as mid-bass and mid-range. That is the entire purpose of a 3-way system. And in car audio where you can easily dedicate an amplifier to just the mid-bass driver, you can achieve stunning improvements in low-end punch and definition. Adding a dedicated woofer that is capable of significant output in the 80hz to 320 hz octaves can make a dramatic improvement to your system. ANY good quality woofer will do this; I recomend something between 6" and 8". It does not matter what size the woofer in the component set might be as it will now handle the next frequency bands. In my car for example I use 6.5" Seas mid-woofers in the doors and 7" Scan Speak woofers in kicks for stereo midbass. The idea is to match the sound quality of the two woofer sets so you don't "hear" the transition from one to the other, and careful crossover settings. You gain from the added ability of a dedicated woofer and amplifier, not from different speaker sizes. I plan to replace my Scan Speak 18W's with Extremis speakers as soon as I can fabricate new kicks and afford the drivers. The Extremis requires a pretty large mounting depth (gotta get all that xmax from somewhere!) By the way I know of at least one person who is using a single Extremis ported at 30Hz as a subwoofer - they are that good. As far as the question about what to do with the passive crossivers in the component set, you need to use them as designed. All adding a mid-bass driver will do is relieve the woofer in the comp set from having to play those frequencies. It does not affect the remainder of the audio spectrum and your passive crossover is required to protect the tweeter. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 3:22 PM
DYohn] wrote:
dding a driver dedicated to the mid and upper bass frequencies relives the component set mid driver from having to do double duty as mid-bass and mid-range. That is the entire purpose of a 3-way system. And in car audio where you can easily dedicate an amplifier to just the mid-bass driver, you can achieve stunning improvements in low-end punch and definition. Adding a dedicated woofer that is capable of significant output in the 80hz to 320 hz octaves can make a dramatic improvement to your system. ANY good quality woofer will do this; I recomend something between 6" and 8". It does not matter what size the woofer in the component set might be as it will now handle the next frequency bands.
Your theory is sound, pardon the pun, but the problem I'm having is that I just don't see having his existing midbass also doing vocals as taking much away from the midbass performance. It just doesn't take much juice to do the mids. And then creating the potential for x-over problems I think makes it more hassle than it's worth. If it were me, I'd either seal the doors with dynamat since they're likely a sieve right now or build that kickpod for a dedicated sealed enclosure. Either would do wonders for midbass. Otherwise I'd use an 7-8" midbass up front to move more air than the 6", likely in a pod as well for a huge, traumatic midbass increase. question - is it possible that your existing 6" door mount is being cancelled out by the speaker's backwave coming thru door holes? Have you played with sealing that door up well? Do you have odd-fitting speaker spacers?
Posted By: lakers08
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 3:42 PM
The doors have been dampened on both the inner and outer skin with B-Quiet/Edead. There were originally factory speaker rings with spacers but they were removed when the install was done. I believe the components are now mounted on MDF within the door.
I'd like to think the head unit features will help in addressing the problems with the crossover. I'm leaning (again) towards the Adire Extremis, which I believe is a 6.8" woofer and by all accounts will provide the output that I'm looking for. I'm talking with a CDT rep right now as well, who's trying to sell me on either the 4" midrange (ES400) or one of the 6.5" sets.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 5:18 PM
My unbiased opinion is that the Adire Extremis will outperform anything from CDT. Period. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 7:46 PM
DYohn] wrote:
My unbiased opinion is that the Adire Extremis will outperform anything from CDT. Period.
And that's the truth... The Extremis is an ***-KICKIN' piece of gear. They sound AWESOME... Fast, smooth, and louder than their efficiency numbers would suggest they are...
Can't go wrong, except in the price. 2 notes a pair is steep, but worth it IMO... ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
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