viper dei 5902 confusing

Well this promises to be a long post for everyone.  To start, the name is Kris, I am new to the forum but not new to elctronics.  I build my own computers, install car audio and in the past I have done security.  I am currently designing the wiring harness for a two place Jet.  Anyways, I thought I would get an alarm for my car, did some research and some shopping and got:

1. Viper 5902 Remote start alarm with colored remote screen-  This system is identical to the 5901 but the remote is color.

2.  DEI 545 Nite Light system- In order to make the car lights on at night and it has a longer timer for when I shut off the car. Also allows daytime running of my lights. 

3.  DEI 506T Glass break sensor-  I plan to have tint so proximity is a no-go and the 5902 comes with a shock.

4.  DEI 522T Trunk release Solenoid-  Dissapointed in it's lack of strength and the fact it doesn't come with a relay, instead they send it with a switch only.

5.  DEI 689M Nuetral start module-  Not thinking I am going to use this.  Not to mention I am wized at their installation drawing.  Completely worthless.

6.  DEI 516L Voice control siren(progammable)-  Love the PA ability, bought to add voice to the arm. disarm, warn and full trigger outputs to make the car stand out so not everyone will ignore it in the parking lot.

7.  DEI 530T 2 Window automation-  My car is a coupe and I want them to roll up when I arm the car.  Other features are nice like, one touch up and down windows.

8.  DEI 529T 1 Window automation- Sun roof control.

This is all going in a 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS with a manual Transmission.  Now the reason for this posting.  I was perturbed to find my installation manual consisted of a quick start guide and operational manual.  I went to Directech.com only to find that they will not supply anyone other than their techs.  Well then why the heck was I allowed to buy it from buy.com????? Since then I have been bugging the internet for Directech passwords or installaion manuals posted in .pdf's.  I stumbled across the install manual for the 5901 only to find that it may not show the right connectors but the pinout scourcing and reasoning is the same.  Follow this link for that install manual:  https://www.directeddealers.com/manuals/IG/Viper/N5702V_2008_08web.pdf

But that can only help a person out so much.  So here comes the list of questions;

1.  wth is this Flex relay?  and why not just call it an aux relay that is integrated in the 5902 housing.  I need to know what amperage it can handle if I am going to use it.     I will tell you that so far I have figured it to work like (in terms of a standard automotive relay) this:

           85-      5902 module controlled.  The module provides it's own ground, whether for trigger or constant.

           86-      5902 module controlled.  The module provides it's own 12v+, whether for trigger or constant.

           87-      H3-2 (connector H3, pin 2) Labeled as "(+) FUSED (30A) Ignition 2/ Flex relay input 87".  What I don't understand, is it ignition 2 because you can program the flex relay to be that or is it ignition 2 and split power scource with whatever you have on the flex relay? Why is it labeled as 87 if it is the input for the relay.  Relay inputs are usually pin 30 unless you are using two scources for one output.  The install manual for the 5901 says "this wire is the polarity feed for the ignition 2/flex relay."  Not that that helps...

           87A-    H3-8.  Labeled as "(+) Flex relay input 87A key side (if required) of flex relay". Homo say what?!?!  This one doesn't make any sense. 

           30-      H3-7    Labeled as "Ignition 2/ Flex relay output".  I would have to guess this is what you get out depending on the state of the flex relay and what is attached to 87 and 87A?

Someone please tell me what is going on with this flex relay.  Using it or not I would like to know what it does and why i have it.

More questions in next post.

2.   on H2-10 is the "(-) remote start / turbo timer activation input".  What is this in lamens terms?  according to the install manual for the 5901 it says "this input comes from the factory set to 1 activation pulse.  This means that it is necessary to have a single ground pulse on the WHITE/ blue wire for the remote start to activate or to deactivate."  Do I need to ground this in order to start.  I would like to think that is what the book said but I have been reading posts on here and HOWIEII is telling people that it is not needed and thier cars start so I am confused. 

Another long thread! Woooohoooo!

That WHITE/ blue is unused! It's purpose is to trigger the remote start via a source other than the control unit, Example a another unit or push to start button!

The flex relay is used when the ignition switch requires isolation, which isn't the case of your eclipse! I think!

All the fused thirty amp wires go to a proper twelve volt source!

More answers in next post!

ok folks all installed.  remote start doesn't work.  First offI had to get into the programming mode and luckily I had the instruction set from the 5901 to figure that out.  But here is the problem.  I can get the remote start to activate, via raising the parking brake tapping the brake and then hitting the remote start button on the keyfob.  It activates as it should and so I turn off the car (the Viper 5902 keeps the car running), pull out my keys, open the door shut it and then lock it.  The car shuts off like it is supposed to and tells me that it is ready for remote start. 

So I hit the button to start it.  The power comes on and I can hear the relay that i figured was the starter relay click but nothing.  Nows here is the set up. 

99 mitsubishi eclipse gs.  First alarm install for the car. The alarm is the DEI Viper 5902.  I have alot of other modules but I have not gotten to those.  wireing wise

H1/1 -trunk release- Goes to the negative side of a relay I put in for the solenoid I put in. Relay is using this input of gnd as switch.  Relay has constand power to coil and to common. Out put of relay goes to solenoid.

H1/2 -12V input- Is wired to inline Fuse, 10 amp, then to buss bar I made of copper.

H1/3  -siren output-  Through the stock grommet above the drivers kick panel, though the drivers fairing panel and to the siren mounted next to the radiator fan. + red wire at the siren

H1/4 -parking light isolation-  Not used

H1/5 -Ground- um yeah, this one went to ground. There is a grounding post underneath the enviromental ducting in the center console.  I grounded with a ring terminal.

H1/6 -Pos Door trigger-  NA My doors are (-) triggers 

H1/7 -Trunk Pin-  This wire is tied to the GRN/RED wire behind the side panel for the rear passenger on the drivers side.  There is a relay for the door locks and the old remote keyless entry control module there. I found the trunk wire as a ptg NO in the wire bundle there and taped in because I didn't want to make a mess of my drivers kickpanel.

H1/8 -Door trigger (-)- This was behind the Drivers rear side panel.  The framing of the car is open and you can get to the door pin.  The wire is Grn/Red.

H1/9 -Dome Light Control-  I tied into the Blk/Blu wire at the top of the power control box with the fuses just inside the drivers kick panel.  At the top there is a small four pin plug with three wires.  Domelight uses a (-) as control.

***H1/10 -Remote Start/Turbo timer activation-  Now against better judgement I did NOT connect this wire to anything.  According to the install book for the 5901, "It is necessary to have a single ground pulse onthe white blue wire for the remote start to activate or to deactivate."      So could this be my problem?????

H1/11 -Parking Light output- The 5902 comes with a mini fuse inside a removable cover on it's brain.  I set my fuse up on the (-) circuit because my light use a negative feed. I got the wire from the connector on the steering column.  Can't remember the color and I didn't right it down.

H1/12 -Ground when Armed- No connection at this time but for all my other modules later.

That was connector H1.

Did you bypass the clutch properly?

Try the same routine again, but instead of  getting out of the car stay in it.  After the car shuts down and is ready to remote start push the clutch in and remote start the car.

This is the exact reason that DEI only supports dealers - these are fairly complexed systems and there are quite a few options and lots of flexibility.  Chances are you bought from a supplier who is not licensed to sell DEI products and you most likely have no warranties through DEI on any of the products you purchased.

H2/1 -Alarm disarm output-  Now my eclipse has a simple system.  If you lock the doors from the outside ad then open the car from the inside without unlocking, (ie the windows are down), then the horn starts to honk and wont stop till you unlock the car with the keys.  But I still didn't think I needed this hooked up.

H2/2 -Aux 4 output-  No Conn.

H2/3 - Alarm arm output- Same instance as disarm, no conn.

H2/4 -Aux 2 output-   No Conn.

H2/5  -Aux 3 output-   No Conn.

H2/6  -Aux 1 output-   No Conn.

H2/7  -Diesel wait to start-  I cut this wire shorter and heatshrinked the tip so there is no way this is getting ground.  No Conn.

H2/8  -Horn Honk Output-  No connection

H2/9  -Tach input-  I ran this wire to my ignitor coil pack.  It has three wires, one is larger than the other two.  One is constand supply voltage, the bigger one, so I connected the alarm lead to one of the smaller wires.

H2/10  -Status output-  I wired this to my clutch wire.  The clutch wire uses a Normally open switch and passes ground through it. So I wired to the signal side before the switch.

H2/11  -Flex relay control out-  No Conn.

H2/12  -Accessory Out-  No Conn

H2/13  -Starter Out-  No Conn

H2/14  -Ignition 1 Out-  No Conn

H2/15  -Hood pin input)  Went through the firewall through the grommet for the wireing harness above the drivers kickpanel, then through the drivers fairing, to the existing hood switch.  It uses Gnd in a normally closed state.

H2/16  -2nd Status/ Rear defrost- This wire is hooked to the Rear defrost switch on the dash. 

H2/17  -Brake shutdown-  This wire is a positive lead when the brakes are applied.  I used the wire coming of the brake switch just above the brake pedal.

H2/18  -Nuetral Safety Input-  Simply put to the parking brake when sends ground when applied.

Kpierson- Don't get on here and get all high and mighty on me.  I paid for the system fair and square and all i ask is a true installation guide.  Not some humbo jumbo crap written in their tech talk that only they understand.  And if that is the case then don't make it availiable to the pupblic.  Wanna jknow where I got it?  Buy.com  Simple.  A place anyone can get it.  So DEI needs to step up to the plate and correct thier own problems before they become some.  I would have love to bought something else had I known they were so proprietary.

You see I design the electrical systems on jets and I am fully capable of researching in order to accomplish my task.  As per your question on the clutch, yes I did do that.  I did alot.  here is a list

-Thought the car my have theft in lock phase so I unlocked the car first, didn't open the door cause I was actually in it.  pushed in the clutch  and set the key in the ignition so if the car had security it would think that I was in the car. The power comes on and then nothing.  I am just short of spending the time to trace the wires.  I have a schematic but it is not very reliable.  And it should be working.  Here is another interesting point.  When I did what I said above with staying in the car, pushing in the clutch, having the key in,  I  had also striped the wire going to the starter relay, (starter side) and attached a wire via aligator clip, (not smart but temperary) from the power supply contant and that start wire.  Still nothing when the car was trying.  But as soon as it failed I would unlock the car open the door like i got in and push in the clutch and attach that wire and sure enoughthe car would start turning over.  It wouldn't run cause no power to acc or ignition.

Unless you are going to help please do not bother to post. I can here for help.  I am not ignorant or arrogant I bought a system because I believed I would get proper information on that system.  I do everytime I buy something in the aircraft industry after market or not.

SneakyCyber-

Yes the nueatral saftey switch is pugged in and in the on position.  I tested it in the off position and the alarm will say Remote Start not Availiable.

I was not trying to be high or mighty, I was simply explaining that you bought a product from a "shady" source and that what you bought is designed to be installed by a TRAINED installer and therefore the installation documentation is extremely limited.  THEY DO THIS ON PURPOSE.  Furthermore, in your owners manual it states that the product MUST be installed by an authorized dealer and therefore they have NO obligation nor reason to provide you with any installation documentation nor support.

My advice to you would be to return the DEI products and purchase something that is geared towards a DIY'er or take the car to an authorized installer and pay to have it done right.

Kevin,

        Your advice is to take everything out and send it all back.  I would be better off creating my own alarm system at that point.  This is not an elite alarm system which should require top secret activities to install.  This is off the shelf.  And yes the owners manual says only a trained technician should install but then again so does a cordless drill that you buy at walmart.  That warning is irrelevant.  Make a product support it end of story.  We could sit here and bicker and nothing would get accomplished.  I wold rather spend my energy getting this to work.

Sneaky-

1       Actually my car does have two ignitions, but I just tied them together, the car starts fine under my control, So I figured nothing negative came of it. 

2       Thank you for the explanation of this remote start activation wire.  I do understand now.  It is so that if I am too lazy to puch the button on the remote then I can hit that button instead.

3       Yes the RED / Black wire is connected to my bus bar, I will check the fuse and connection to the box and get back to you, but remember I do have power on the wire to my starter (starter side) when the alarm is trying to start and I have jumpered to power with that same wire while it is trying to start and still nothing.

And I have to agree with you about the wires being right out of the alarm i just think that I have a security issue with the car.

You should NOT tie seperate ignitions feeds togehter, you must use seperate relays to A) maintain isolation and B) make sure you have enough current for both ignitions.  If the OEM intended for those circuits to be common there would only be one ignition instead of two.

It still sounds to me like you have a clutch interlock problem.  The starter wire on most vehicles leaves the ignition and either goes through a clutch switch or set of contacts.  If your clutch switch really does output a (-) signal when the clutch is pushed then that would indicate there is most likely a set of contacts somewhere that starter output wires goes through before hitting the starter. 

I would disconnect the status output of the alarm from the clutch switch and then try the tests again with manually holding the clutch in.

Regardless of ignition wiring the starter should still activate when you apply power to the line.  Perhaps you can completely disconnect the alarm from the car and use your alligator clips to jump from 12vdc to the starter wire and play around with pushing the clutch in and out and see if you can get the starter to engage at all.

One big issue with remote starts on manual cars is there is very little support for clutch bypassing and in most cases the installer is left to figure it out on his own with no guidence.

Also, unrelated to this, were you able to program the tach signal properly?

First to answer your last question, yes i believe so.  You see I was going off the 5901 manual and followed it's dierection on system features menu.  page 39 tells you how to get into that feature.  reason I am not sure if I did it right is that according to the manual, menu 3 (remote start) item 2 (Engine checking mode) opt 4 should be tach.  Well my brain, more than likely because it is the 5902 and not the 5901 does not have a 4 opt and of course there is nothing to tell you what one you chose just what numbered option you chose.  S I left it with the third option which is off according to the 5901 manual but I was hoping it would be tach and that they just got rid of off.  By the way the other two options are opt 1-Virtual Tach,  opt 2- Voltage.

I will look into the clutch being the cause of my issue, but i am positive on the negative feed.  But as I have said I can start the car myself just fine and i have tried holding the clutch in when the alarm is trying to start the car.

I will have to use that darn flex relay for that second ign then and who knows it may solve my non-start issue.  Thanks for the continued support even after our argument, i honestly appreciate it.

Like I said before, the starter should engage regardless of ignition powering so it won't fix the issue you are having.

I wonder how much current the clutch interlock passes?  Perhaps the clutch switch is on the (-) side of the solenoid and the starter is on the positive?  If that is the case, your (-) 200mA status output is most likely fried and that would explain why it hasn't worked.  On the other hand though, when manually pushing the clutch in the car should have started....  Definately seems strange. 

Regarding the "arguement" like I said I was just trying to fill you in why there is no documentation - it isn't an "issue" that DEI cares to address, they do it for a reason.

Understood.

Now that I am hooking up the flex relay, do you happen to know if I need to hook up H3/8 -Flex relay input-  I would think of this like the common on the relay, but then why would I have H3/2.  I have the idea of the 87 and 87a of the flex relay being scources of power to come out H3/7.  Where as the 87a is normally closed and uses the cars power scource , but for what cause if it gets power from that ignition 2 wire then what does it need to send power to or am I supposed to cut ignition 2 wire and wire the car side to H3/7 and the key side to H3/8?

I'm not sure what the pin numbers mean - what are the names?

For second ignition you would want Pin 30 (common) connected to high current 12vdc and 87 (NO) connected to 2nd ignition.  87A (NC) you would leave disconnected in this case.

Of course you could reverse the connections above since we are only talking about a simple switch at this point.

unfortunately the flex relay is internal in the 5902 and there is no documentation to tell you which outside leads go to which on the relay.  H3/2 (harness 3 / pin 2) is a RED / Wht wire labeled as -  (+) Fused (30A) Ignition 2/ Flex Relay Input 87  -

H3/7 is a Pnk/Wht wire labeled as -  (+) Ignition 2/ Flex Relay Output  -

H3/8 is a Pnk/Blk Wire labeled as -  (+) Plex Relay Input 87A key side (if required) of Flex Realy-

so as I said, I am thinking that they are using the two 87's as the input and switching the input.  so it is more a dpst relay instead.  That way, if the car controls it, the ignition 2 gets power from ignition switch keyside and if the remote start is activated then ignition 2 gets power from the flex relay from the power bus connection into H3/2.

WOW I was wondering when we were going to get a visit from the infamous HOWIEII.  Glad to see you alive and degrading us "inferiors" as usual.  As per your "points" please read the following;

-Tach learning-  Yes I did learn the tach.  I turned the car on, and then hit the valet switch within 5 seconds and held it until the led lit for three soconds.  The 5902 would not activate the remote start until I did that.

-Clutch Switch-  This is how it goes.  Blak wire to switch contains a 1ohm resistance to ground. Blk/Blu wire contains no connection to ground and no voltage.  The clutch switch is a normally open switch with no continuity to ground on either lead in either position.  I wired the output of the 5902 to the blk/blu wire.  Key to note here.  I was in the car when attempting to remote start and i held in the clutch with no response.

-Factory Transponder-   If you are talking about a key then you are out of luck.  my key is all metal, nothing special.  besides i did put the key in the ignition as well. still nothing.

And lastly the 5902 is protected by fuses and unless I am surging the current through I will not hurt the unit by tying the two leads together and over drawing.

This is from a post on a viper 5301 on a 06 honda element. I guess just add the green wire but the others seem to be the same.

H3/1  Pink (connect this to ignition 1 in the car

H3/2  RED / White (connect this to 12 volts in the car)  this will power the acc 2 wire from the viper brain

H3/3  Orange (connect this to acc 1 in the car)

H3/4  Violet (connect this to the starter wire in the car)

          Green Wire

H3/5  Red (connect this to 12 volts in the car)  this will power the ign 1 wire from the viper brain

H3/6  Pink/White (connect this to acc 2 and you have to program the viper for acc 2),   default is ign 2

H3/7  Pink/Black (not used)

H3/8  RED / Black (connect this wire to 12 volts)  this will power acc1 and starter wires from the viper brain

Well solution hath cometh forward.  Thank you to all those who helped along the way.  Proplem;

CLUTCH SWITCH  It turns out that the clutch switch is a normally closed switch and not a normally open one as the Chelton manual has drawn.  Just goes to show that you sometimes have to check someone elses work.  How did I figure it out?

well after I tried everything once again.  unlock before the start, remote start with the key in, my foot pressing the clutch in, and also me jumping the start wire with 12v straight from the bus I followed KPierson's advice and just cut the darn thing.  Sure enough with my foot on the clutch the car started and ran perfect.  A little investigation showed the switch was normally closed.  So i was giving the signal that the clutch was not in even when my foot held it in.

Great Work Team!!

First rule of alarms / remote starts - VERIFY EVERYTHING with a meter yourself every car every time.

Tech sheets and service manuals are often wrong!

Glad it was nothing major!