analog vs data

when you sell a job as a installer do you add money for a bypass module or do you sell the job as a "data" install? For an example should the install of a r/s w/keyless 1000ft range 2 remotes installed in a 99 Intrepid cost the same as a 10 dodge Ram? Should pricing be the same for an analog install or a data install? Since data which uses a bypass with a data rs232 port which would save install time. The analog install with many extra connections would take more labor, the data install would cost more in parts. What do you think?

Since all data comms is analog, charge analog.
(I'm assuming analog costs more.)

Data costs more but is theoretically faster to install. Charge the highest mean price.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

i charge analogue assuming if something doesn't work or i have an issue and have to rewire it W2W, what would it cost?

i tend to be a worse case scenario kind of guy.... ha ha

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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979

Just curious, what do you guys consider "analog"? Seems to me they would either be digital or data, but neither would include analog.

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Kevin Pierson

howie ll wrote:

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Data costs more but is theoretically faster to install. Charge the highest mean price.

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That of course is assuming the module wants to cooperate hah.

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A DMM is a beautiful thing.

MECP Advanced Installer Certified.

KPierson wrote:

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Just curious, what do you guys consider "analog"? Seems to me they would either be digital or data, but neither would include analog.

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When I say analog I dont mean wiring up the bypass mod w2w vrs. plugging in to a data port. An analog install is when you dont use a module. Its when you hardwire all connections. Like the tach wire,installing a hood pin, wiring up the door locks with resistors and relays ect. A data install usualy eliminates these connections since it uses the bypass module to communicate this data throught the ecm or bcm.

How is that considered analog?

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Kevin Pierson

Analog is a dicrect signal like w2w connections they are either 12v+ or a ground puse. Data would be coded information sent via multiplex signal.

Why not agree that all electrical wiring is analog and be done with it.

However, for charging purposes, the intended digital transmission may set the costs!   


(So digital is more expensive eh? I have been working in alternate areas!) (Not that I like PICs anyway LOL)

phil6710 wrote:

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Analog is a direct signal like w2w connections they are either 12v+ or a ground pulse. Data would be coded information sent via multiplex signal.

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So by "analog" you mean "digital"?

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Kevin Pierson

I guess by analog I mean "hard wiring" with out the use of a bypass module. We call it analog at the shops I install for. I contract with several differnt shops for installs. The question I am getting at is it justifiable to charge less for an install that will cost less in parts but will take more time to install vrs. using a bypass mod which cost more but usualy saves time in labor. Basicaly someshops I work for will charge less if the customer sacrifices a (transponder)key and a "data" bypass is not used. But there is more connections to make with this type of install and it takes more time.

KP - how do you define digital?

Hence what is digital and what is analog as you see it in this case?

To the first poster, why oh why didn't you just ask for the difference between hard wiring and D2D?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

oldspark wrote:

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KP - how do you define digital?

Hence what is digital and what is analog as you see it in this case?

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Digital signals have two levels - high and low. Basically any signal that looks for either ground or 12vdc to determine the status of the input (in a car environment).

Analog signals have specific values for points along the way from the high and low. Analog signals would be 0-5vdc, 0-10vdc, 4-20mA, etc.

What would a definition of "analog" be that would actually fit in this context?

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Kevin Pierson

Ah - but hi & lo can be 0 & 1 or 1 & 0. EG RS232 "1" is a -ve voltage whilst "0" is a +ve voltage....

Alas I tease with the irrelevant.


The point is that you have described analog quantities.

As the saying goes, "there is no such thing as digital transmission" - it is all analog. (So too are logic levels, but there is FWIR a possible "digital" state.)

Hence my comment that it doesn't matter what you are installing, wire-wise it is all analog.

oldspark wrote:

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Ah - but hi & lo can be 0 & 1 or 1 & 0. EG RS232 "1" is a -ve voltage whilst "0" is a +ve voltage....

Alas I tease with the irrelevant.


The point is that you have described analog quantities.

As the saying goes, "there is no such thing as digital transmission" - it is all analog. (So too are logic levels, but there is FWIR a possible "digital" state.)

Hence my comment that it doesn't matter what you are installing, wire-wise it is all analog.

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But I did not describe analog quantities I described properties of digital signals. To be digital there has to be a high/low threshold. Therefore, having potential is a requirement of a digital signal. A door pin, for instance, is either ON or OFF, High or Low, 1 or 0, +12vdc or ground. A purely digital signal! The same thing for a tach signal, it is either + or -.



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Kevin Pierson

Enough already, you two, you're both right in your explanations. I bet the original poster is ruing the day he used the D word.
How about adding that digital signals also alter the time base?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

LOL!
I prefer to avoid "digital" in such situations - people expect computational circuits. I don't think of my headlights as digital despite their on-off state. (I was gonna say hi-lo state...)

I might define & use "digital" to distinguish between (say) my on-off & dimmer outputs for lights etc (digital & analog signals respectively), though discrete and variable are probably the correct terms.

But when I see PWM described as digital.... and that's even less digital than Morse Code (which is officially NOT digital).


Digital signals are analog - albeit discrete levels.
It's like "digital transmission" - there is no such thing - all transmission is analog, but there is "digitally encoded" transmission. (And that is usually tri-state - eg, RS232, fibre-optics etc, hence also not "digital".)

And of course NEVER confuse high or low outputs with low or hi voltages or on-off or active or inactive states. Alas a very common digital signaling term is "active-low" which is usually regarded as a (digital) "high".   


To use "logical" jargon is more acceptable - eg, I can say I'll switch my light off, or de-active-ate it or send it low. But if I were to say my wall switch is digital - or I had a digitally controlled light - I think people here would object.

And if anyone goes psycho over this, we can blame Boole for his invention of Boolean algebra way before even electronics existed (and computers were still analog).   


As always - especially in English - we need to define our jargon when it matters. (And people wonder why "Legal English" exists!)

Over & Out.
aka going low.... I mean, not-active = nactive.

Surely if you use your finger to turn it on or off a light switch must be digital. Sorry Peter you asked for it.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Haha, I would argue that PWM is 100% digital. Only two states that are only separated by time. My Atmel microcontrollers have 0 analog outputs, but have PWM outputs.   

Any I would say your head light controls are definitely digital!!!! Unless, of course, you have a dimmer on them.

I understand where you are coming from with the statement that all transmissions are analog and I can appreciate that, but if ALL transmissions are analog what would you call a true analog output (like a 0-10vdc or 4.20mA signal)? There would have to a more precise name to refer to them as, instead of just analog signals!

OK Howie, I'm done!!!!!!!

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Kevin Pierson

Must say it's been an enjoyable if pointless mind exercise. Oh winter's here and I just spent an hour outside sorting out the awful body control unit that controls the tailgate window on a Landrover Freelander, I couldn't take more than 15 minutes out there.
I wish a Stauxnet would hit some the processors they put on cars.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

It must be my uPC etc experience.
Maybe I need to think of binary instead of digital, and digital as simply "discrete" analog quantities.

I therefore retract what I wrote about Boole - digital was around long before him.
LOL - the American Indian beat AT&T to digital by how many centuries? (Funny how we keep learning how far we lag!)


But I was talking quantities - 12V, 5V, -15V etc are all analog quantities.
It is all digital encoding and representation - there is no "bit" quantity per se - we do not send "bits" thru a wire.
But yeah - a modem is considered digital even though its transmission works entirely on multiple frequencies.


I'd better get back to my digital coffee maker.

Well thank you every one for all the input on this topic. I have learned alot about the true definition of analog and digital. But,, I still am looking for the answer to my question. I know I asked about analog vrs data. The reason why I term this like this because it is how it is decribe at some of the shops I work at. Although It may not be correct terminology. The question is should a hard wired install using relay resistors x-tra key, ect cost the same or less or more than an install using a high end data module like a AL CA DL by idatalink?  For an example today I installed an r/s w/keyless in a 2003 Infinity G35. The customer sacrafised a key for the install. So I had to wire up the door lock and dissarm at the module in the door. It was alot of extra labor espesaly considering the door jam boot has a molex conector which you have to wire through. Alota extra work, had I used a data module I could have saved this step. But I only needed the r/s unit and one relay to so this job,,which is about $40. Adding a module would atleast double the price of parts for the install, but it would be quicker to do.

If it makes you feel any better that is the only way to do a G35 and retain the window function that the OEM remote has. I haven't seen a module yet that will allow window control but running the door lock wires in to the doors will allow both up and down with no extra parts (on many alarms).

I would definitely charge extra for the labor of going in to a door like that - that isn't fun and there is quite a bit of liability, especially if you don't seal the hole up completely. If any water gets through the molex it'll land on the BCM and ruin it!

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Kevin Pierson

It's really all back to knowledge and experience.
I know that in many places I sub to there is separation between the customer and myself with the shop staff in between. They are trying to do a deal in times of recession and will bend over on the labour charges hitting you and me in the pocket.
TAKE CONTROL. Because if you don't you will be shafted. Educate the staff, if possible have a word with the customer, especially if you know the issues with that vehicle, such as the G35, or VW hatches where the hatch light switch always seems to fail.
Point out the options and the fact that they will cost more, get the customer's agreement, preferably in writing on a pre-install vehicle check list.
Find out as much about the vehicle as you can, Mitchells, A/Vox, Directwire etc.before you start.
Knowledge of what's involved is your financial power.
You are not moving a box over a sales counter.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.