fortin, flashlogic,dei, xpresskit, idata

Hello all,

Have 20+yrs experience in Auto field, need some advice on which CAN BUS interface module to go with.
Currently not working professionally as a "installer".
Install will be on a (rare) 2007 Hyundai Entourage LIMITED (AKA 2nd generation Kia Sedona, Sedona mfg thru 2006>2012)


From my research and I could be wrong the FORTIN brand may be the best bet as:
They do not to Restrict access to firmware (once you obtain their $34.99 & $28 to ship to USA! FLASH-LINK UPDATER USB interface box )
They honor the warranty, provide support on FORTIN branded products regardless were purchased.
Documentation is NOT restricted.   (You don't have to log-in to access)

(They DO NOT Play the " Hey it's our stuff you bought, but we're going to not provide any support, not even let you access wiring diagram info and we're going to void the warranty on the hardware purchased not from us /not installed by a dealer game, etc"... like some of the companies I've been looking at for other parts of the install do.)

Another way to say the above:

Which module would you buy if YOU didn't have "dealer access"?
What's the pro's /cons?

Most likely I will be going with the FORTIN ALL-CAN

Here's a list I'm working on- ANY I MISSED?


FORTIN =
FLASHLOGIC (AUDIOVOX)
DEI
XPRESSKIT
IDATALINK


FORTIN EVO-CAN     https://ifar.ca/products/evo/evo-can/

FORTIN ALL-CAN     https://ifar.ca/en/products/evo/evo-all/


https://ifar.ca/en/products/evo/evo-all/vehicles.html#19,3095,4188



XPRESSKIT DLPK - CANBUS MULTI Doorlock Interface module
https://www.xpresskit.com/product.aspx?productid=122
https://www.xpresskit.com/VehicleCompatibility.aspx?src=vs1&p=null&year=2007&make=Hyundai&model=Entourage&ps=1&s=0&c=0


IDATALINK ADS-AL CA DL-HK https://www.idatalink.com/search/search?vehicle_make_id=17&vehicle_year_id=2007&vehicle_model_id=613&vehicle_id=4697

IDATALINK Weblink access is exclusively granted to mobile electronics professionals. All Weblink registrations are subject to validation. Your account may be suspended at any time if inaccurate information is provided.

Think you did your research and pretty much answered your question. 
Only two questions that could influence the answer-
Does your Entourage have a transponder key system?
Does your Entourage have a factory alarm?

If you have a transponder chipped key, then your best / only solution is the Fortin EVO-ALL ( and EVO-CAN ).  It will do it all.  The EVO-ALL doesn't cost
much more than the EVO-CAN and supplies a few more signals ( Tach and Brake ) that will save time during the install.

As you mentioned,  the Fortin module can be flashed by anyone that has the Fortin Flashlink USB cable ( about $50 online ).  However, if you ensure
you purchase the latest Hardware and Firmware version from your source, it won't be necessary.  All Fortin modules leave the factory with the then
current firmware loaded.  Currently it is Hardware V5 and Firmware V4.07 ( Hardware V4 will work, also ).

The iDatalink ADS AL-CA module with ADS AL(DL) HK firmware only does the door locks /etc, not the transponder.  There are online sellers that will flash
the module for you prior to shipment ( sometimes for a modest fee ).  You could use the ADS DLSL CA2 module for the door locks.  As a Solo Series
module, it does come pre-loaded with firmware.  No direct Tech Support with iDatalink for DIYers but there is a Forum where you could ask a question. 
If you need a transponder bypass, that would be a "authorized iDatalink installer only" situation using KLON software and an additional ADS TB module.

The DEI DLPK module is a re-badged Fortin module ( CAN-SL2 ) with DEI D2D comm.  It does not handle the transponder bypass function, but is a
solid module and can be found at a reasonable price.  No direct Tech Support from DEI for DIYers, either.

There are really only three players in the bypass module field.  DEI XPresskit, iDatalink and Fortin.  In your situation, Fortin is not only the obvious
solution, the EVO-ALL is an outstanding, cost effective, quality product. ( IMHO )

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Soldering is fun!

kreg357 wrote:

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Think you did your research and pretty much answered your question. 
Only two questions that could influence the answer-
Does your Entourage have a transponder key system?
Does your Entourage have a factory alarm?

If you have a transponder chipped key, then your best / only solution is the Fortin EVO-ALL ( and EVO-CAN ).  It will do it all.  The EVO-ALL doesn't cost
much more than the EVO-CAN and supplies a few more signals ( Tach and Brake ) that will save time during the install.

As you mentioned,  the Fortin module can be flashed by anyone that has the Fortin Flashlink USB cable ( about $50 online ).  However, if you ensure
you purchase the latest Hardware and Firmware version from your source, it won't be necessary.  All Fortin modules leave the factory with the then
current firmware loaded.  Currently it is Hardware V5 and Firmware V4.07 ( Hardware V4 will work, also ).

The iDatalink ADS AL-CA module with ADS AL(DL) HK firmware only does the door locks /etc, not the transponder.  There are online sellers that will flash
the module for you prior to shipment ( sometimes for a modest fee ).  You could use the ADS DLSL CA2 module for the door locks.  As a Solo Series
module, it does come pre-loaded with firmware.  No direct Tech Support with iDatalink for DIYers but there is a Forum where you could ask a question. 
If you need a transponder bypass, that would be a "authorized iDatalink installer only" situation using KLON software and an additional ADS TB module.

The DEI DLPK module is a re-badged Fortin module ( CAN-SL2 ) with DEI D2D comm.  It does not handle the transponder bypass function, but is a
solid module and can be found at a reasonable price.  No direct Tech Support from DEI for DIYers, either.

There are really only three players in the bypass module field.  DEI XPresskit, iDatalink and Fortin.  In your situation, Fortin is not only the obvious
solution, the EVO-ALL is an outstanding, cost effective, quality product. ( IMHO )

---

Appreciate you taking the time out of your day to respond.

Without going into alot of detail as I think that would best go in a thread dedicated to the install itself car has:
Regular key, no transponder.
Factory anti-theft interrupts power to starter relay.

Purpose of this thread
Purpose of creating this thread was primarily to make a thread which would note the similarities and differences, the Pro's/Con's of competing CAN-BUS modules and info on how the attitude/support of the companies vary.

Really appreciate you clarifying some info and verifying FORTIN products are first rate.
Sounds unless there's a valid reason not to go with them- they will be getting my money and referrals to them as well.

BTW What do you think about the Audiovox Flashlogic FLSCAN modules?

Is Audiovox like FORTIN, or more like a DEI umbrella company?
On DEI alarm/remote starter systems from what I can tell won't even allow to access a wiring diagram..without a installers account.

Sort of off-topic- and I guess it should go in the thread that has questions specific to the Entourage...
Q: Audiovox Prestige SS9000, or Prestige APS997C any good?

Looking for a RELIABLE /DURABLE 2-way , price range $160 (Hopefully) or so will at least 7 ? channels or more.
(I have some stock of Bulldog-Security Bulldog Deluxe 500's which I've done installs with in the past but alas they have no "Alarm" features.)

****************
My experience with FORTIN support:
Tool free 800 number.
Website=friendly
Documents= readily available.
Tech support appeared knowledgeable and friendly.
Attitude is one of= I realize my companies profit and my job depends on making you happy- instead of, We could care less.

Called FORTIN tech support twice. (Pre-sales questions)
Call was primarily to ask if they support, honor warranty issues.

1st call was answered in a timely manner, and the tech was FRIENDLY. He said they SUPPORT (Tech&Warranty) FORTIN branded products no matter where you buy them.

2nd call was to ask about the protocol used on the(D2D)-4-wire datalink cable to connect to alarm/remote start control box used.
As you noted DEI D2D comm is used so DEI products would be a better option in that respect.
(While talking with tech#1 he mentioned W2W connection is more stable/reliable)

While W2W is really not a big deal if wired on the bench, was thinking of pairing the FORTIN EVO-ALL to a (Gasp) Audiovox Prestige SS9000, or Prestige APS997C via the data port to reduce wiring clutter...


PS: Is there a EDIT feature on this forum?

.

Ah, the edit button...

Note: Junior Members can not edit or delete their posts. Standard members may edit their posts if it is the last in the thread, and upload images. Silver and Gold members may upload file attachments to posts as well as delete their posts. Platinum members may create polls

wearenotalone wrote:

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While W2W is really not a big deal if wired on the bench, was thinking of pairing the FORTIN EVO-ALL to a (Gasp) Audiovox Prestige SS9000, or Prestige APS997C via the data port to reduce wiring clutter...

PS: Is there a EDIT feature on this forum?

.

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Where's the edit button? (Guess there is none?)

Add to the above, W2W is not a big deal if done on the bench but it would have been nice to use a D2D connection if possible to reduce wiring clutter. Looks like FORTIN uses the DEI protocol so that's not going to be possible if using a Audiovox alarm/remote start.


Is this pretty much correct?

Via:
W2W (analog) connection= It's mix and match (Alarm/remote to CAN-BUS module)
Via:
D2D (Digital) Protocols vary from mfg to mfg, differing protocols clash so in D2D the below applies:


FORTIN = DEI branded products.
FLASHLOGIC (AUDIOVOX) = Audiovox branded products
XPRESSKIT = DEI branded products
IDATALINK = ?

Think the EDIT button does not show up until you have reached a certain rating level.  Check in the Forum rules for exact info.

I believe all major remote start manufactures have a wiring guide database.  DEI's full blown deluxe one is restricted to authorized dealers.  They do have
a stripped down version ( without pictures, etc ) at their Ready Remote site.  Audiovox has a wiring guide site that is available to all with just a simple,
free of charge, no requirements, registration.  Bulldog Security has a site that is totally free.  The fourth free wiring info site is here at the 12Volt.

The Audiovox FLCAN is actually a re-badged iDatalink ADS AL-CA.  Some rules apply for support and firmware.

iDatalink supports two communication protocols with the D2D port.  They have their own proprietary one and DBI ( which is DEI's D2D ).  FLCAN's primary
is DBI while iDatalink ADS modules primary is Idatalink. 

The same holds true for Fortin.  Fortin has their own proprietary protocol ( Data-Link ) and also supports DBI.    You can select which D2D you want during
a firmware flash.  Most major remote start units support a D2D protocol.  Some do two ( ex: newer Ultra Start units do Idatalink and Fortin Data-Link
protocols ).   Fortin actually has a section on their WEB site dedicated to which remote start manufactures units support their Data-Link protocol.  The
list includes model numbers and Rev levels ( when necessary ).

Usually, the remote starters installation guide will identify which D2D protocol is supported.  It can sometimes be found at the manufactures WEB site, along
with the models' features, etc.

While D2D is getting better, it often times is not perfect.  The W2W method always works and makes things easier to troubleshoot if a problem is
encountered during post-install testing. 

You will also find that the remote start manufactures have the same "authorized user" Tech Support policy.   

Things change very quickly in this industry ( like all computer electronic industries ).  You will find previous posts with outdated info and dead links.  For
the DIYer trying to do just one vehicle, gathering the amount of info necessary to be fully informed and completely aware is next to impossible.  Most
professional installers are very knowledgeable on their supported brands, get regular training and updates from the suppliers /  manufactures and can
assist the customer in getting the correct system with the best features for their model vehicle.  This is a value add for the customer that is very hard
to put a price on.  Sorry, this is not a sales pitch but an explanation of why "inside" info is sometimes very difficult to come by.

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Soldering is fun!

kreg357 wrote:

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The iDatalink ADS AL-CA module with ADS AL(DL) HK firmware only does the door locks /etc, not the transponder.

---

I hope I'm not hijacking this topic, but I've had a question about the above for awhile. What's an example of when someone would need a module for door locks?

I thought door locks pretty much operated potentially 5 different ways, and alarms were wired to accommodate any of those 5. It's always puzzled me what these door-lock only modules are for.

Thanks.

Some vehicles' door locks are the 5 wire / relay types that must be done in each of the front doors ( ex. = some Jeeps,  Avalanches, etc ).  A real pain.
Some vehicles alarm systems can only be controlled by the factory remotes ( some Honda's come to mind ).
In these cases, a module with a few simple under dash connections makes life easy.

-------------
Soldering is fun!

az2008 wrote:

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kreg357 wrote:

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The iDatalink ADS AL-CA module with ADS AL(DL) HK firmware only does the door locks /etc, not the transponder.

---

I hope I'm not hijacking this topic, but I've had a question about the above for awhile. What's an example of when someone would need a module for door locks?

I thought door locks pretty much operated potentially 5 different ways, and alarms were wired to accommodate any of those 5. It's always puzzled me what these door-lock only modules are for.

Thanks.

---

RE: I hope I'm not hijacking this topic, but I've had a question about the above for awhile.

The reason I created this thread was to get some discussion on the various modules on the market, the differences between them, their capabilities, usage of such so feel free to ask questions.

.

az2008 wrote:

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What's an example of when someone would need a module for door locks?
I thought door locks pretty much operated potentially 5 different ways, and alarms were wired to accommodate any of those 5.

It's always puzzled me what these door-lock only modules are for.

---

I'll tell you why I'm looking at a CAN-BUS interface module type setup such as the FORTIN EVO-ALL vs manually wiring everything up.

Short story? CAN-BUS allows devices on the bus to communicate with each other. Accessing the bus allows you to control devices on the network via EXISTING wiring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus
CAN bus (for controller area network) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other within a vehicle

CAN-BUS...module "Pro's"
CAN-BUS wiring is easily accessed.
CAN-BUS Module ties DIRECTLY into the CAN-BUS.
CAN-BUS module reduces install, and servicing costs.. (See list below)

CAN-BUS...module "Con's"
Failure of module "could" damage components on the CAN-BUS?

1: (2) wires to CAN-BUS, vs 20 +/- to various parts of the car.
2: Existing alarm system "sees" data pulses on the bus as not being "foreign".
3: Reduces time on initial install.
4: Reduces post-install servicing costs.
(NO ONE LIKES TO MUCK around with non-oem wiring. In 20+ years on working on cars I've yet to see a installer make a detailed write-up of all the things he did on the car /make a wiring diagram and leave a copy in the car.)

5: Makes it easier to "change"/update alarm/remote control box.
(A good percentage of wiring is CAN-BUS module to alarm brain)
6: Good percentage of connections can be done on the BENCH instead of under the dash.)
7: Less stuff to re-work if I need to pull/replace.
8: Don't have to go into drivers door- to access driver door switch.
9: Don't have to access RAM module, rear of car.
10:Don't have the expense, cost of wire, cost in TIME to run wiring to rear of car.
11: CAN-BUS module will control Left and Right power sliding doors, plus will control power rear hatch.
12: FORTIN EVO-ALL , gets tach and e-brake signal off CAN-BUS.
13: Reduces failure points, more crap you tie into more chance for a problem later on.
14: Reduces the amount of "rats-nest" wiring added to car.
15: Don't have to run wiring from driver door switch- thru the wiring loom thru the frame to the alarm brain.

.

May I try to clarify this?
There are three types of black box.
1) Transponder by-pass.
2) CAN or other data "converters" for locks, triggers, vehicle state, e.g. disable factory alarm etc. etc.
3) Combo for above 2.

In general W2W tends to be more reliable especially for instance tach.
BUT for many vehicles, especially those I deal with, Euros from 2005 are generally untouchable with W2W everything is CAN, even had this on a 2000 Mercedes where the lock/unlock pulses were data generated, also power windows on many Japanese vehicles, hence the comment "go to the motor wires" on window closers.
General rule, if the vehicle doesn't NEED CAN conversion for locks, lights triggers don't bother you'd be better off with W2W.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

From what our OP writes, if no transponder on that vehicle forget the data boxes and hard wire, a very easy vehicle to install to.
Other poster, there are far more than 5 ways to control locks.
Heck London taxis even use low neg for the fronts and open circuit (4 relays needed) for the rear because there's no trigger mechanism.
Also NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car, I hate to even tell people how to alter sensor settings without a waiver from the customer, i.e. no call out if that sensor starts misbehaving.
I've also been called out many times to audit/sort out other people's installs. Depending on the vehicle I usually find everything exactly where I thought it would be.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

howie ll wrote:

---

May I try to clarify this?
There are three types of black box.
1) Transponder by-pass.
2) CAN or other data "converters" for locks, triggers, vehicle state, e.g. disable factory alarm etc. etc.
3) Combo for above 2.

In general W2W tends to be more reliable especially for instance tach.
BUT for many vehicles, especially those I deal with, Euros from 2005 are generally untouchable with W2W everything is CAN, even had this on a 2000 Mercedes where the lock/unlock pulses were data generated, also power windows on many Japanese vehicles, hence the comment "go to the motor wires" on window closers.
General rule, if the vehicle doesn't NEED CAN conversion for locks, lights triggers don't bother you'd be better off with W2W.

---

howie ll, Appreciate your input, keep it coming.

Q: As you point out most cars mfg within the last 7+ years or so are CAN-BUS.

Transponder by-pass issue aside:
1: How do you tell if a particular vehicle "needs" a CAN-BUS vs W2W setup?

2: On "going to the motor wires" on window closers.
The 2007 Hyundai Entourage (AKA 2nd generation KIA Sedona) does NOT have a transponder key, does NOT have a "convenience" option on the car in which turning the key to the lock position for 5-7 seconds will roll up and windows /sunroof that might be open.

CAN-BUS interfaces I've looked at do not show CAN-BUS tie ins so I would assume adding a "convenience option" to control windows, the sunroof will require adding a "window-roll-up module(s) to control such. Module(s) are interfaced/blended into existing vehicle wiring /switching as needed via W2W. Roll-up module wired via W2W to alarm/remote brain so there is NO interaction with the CAN-BUS.

On CAN-BUS vehicles with a "convenience option", what brand cars /percentage of such can the "convenience option" be added via a CAN-BUS module?


.

howie ll wrote:

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From what our OP writes, if no transponder on that vehicle forget the data boxes and hard wire, a very easy vehicle to install to.

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2007 Hyundai Entourage, AKA 2nd generation KIA Sedona, AKA Carnival in Europe is very easy to do?

Will keep that in consideration, if I add a "convenience option" to control the windows I might as hardwire the other stuff.

If you have any info that is vehicle specific, if you could PM me the info it would be appreciated. In the threads here on this board I found (1) post that mentions briefly it's a PITA to tie in to the door-lock switch in the drivers door. The only thread here I found was CAN-BUS related.

howie ll wrote:

---

~snip~
Also NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car, I hate to even tell people how to alter sensor settings without a waiver from the customer, i.e. no call out if that sensor starts misbehaving.
I've also been called out many times to audit/sort out other people's installs. Depending on the vehicle I usually find everything exactly where I thought it would be.

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RE: NO installer is going to leave install notes in a car.
Howie,
You are looking at this from the point of a installer, the point I was making in regards to "aftermarket" wiring is it INCREASES servicing costs.

Forget about alarms, you being a installer...

Lets put the shoe on the other foot, imagine you SERVICE cars on flat-rate and have NO access to aftermarket wiring diagram info, and the installer did not leave a wiring diagram. (oh joy)

Would the final charge (bill) be more? (Yes it would)

Many years ago and I can't remember the exact details I had a friend which re-wired his car on purpose, turning on light switch would cause the wipers to turn on, hitting the wiper switch would turn on the flashers, flasher switch would control something else, opening the glove box "if" the rear window defroster switch was depressed would crank the car (engage the starter) and so on.

Would you want to service cars like that without a copy of the install notes, without a wiring diagram?

(Say you had a flat fee for fixing xyz and you could not charge extra for time spent. YOU had to eat time spent.)


.

Back on topic...

Assuming the CAN-BUS module is W2W'd to the alarm/remote start control box.

Q: How long have each of the below brands been on the market? How many years /since when?

FORTIN
FLASHLOGIC (AUDIOVOX)
XPRESSKIT
IDATALINK
(Please fee free to add to list)

Q: Are these CAN-BUS interface modules considered "mature" products?

Q: How many generations have each had?

Q: Are they considered to be stable/reliable?

Q: Which are the most stable?

Q: How would you rate each on speed of coming out with updates to firmware?

Q: Which of the above provide support /continue updating firmware on prior product version(s)the longest?


.

Ref window close.
1 x DEI 530t per pair of windows, close and vent.
1 x DEI 529t ditto, close only.
With the 530t you must go to the motor wires in each door, this will also give you one-shot close and open from all your switches.
Don't assume a CAN conversion box will save ANYTHING on your car it's going to be all W2W.
Incidentally I did my first DEI Viper (5702) R/S today on an 07 Euro GM car, totally CAN, sold in the US as the last Saturn Astra.
I used a DB-all, I STILL had to de-chip a spare key to make the R/S work, Fortin in future.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

We're out of synch here but ref: the servicing post, no I wouldn't touch that car in fact as far as ANY aftermarket install is concerned there's no such creature as "flat rate" except when I'm doing multiple fleet trackers into the same type of vehicle.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

This is all beginning to sound like market research to me, maybe Kregg and I should be paid

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

howie ll wrote:

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This is all beginning to sound like market research to me, maybe Kregg and I should be paid

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Market research?

Wondering how long these CAN-BUS modules have been around- and if they're reliable. Haven't run across any threads on the net that go into details on the units /comparisons, only a random post of two that might pop-up in a thread.

XYZ website/mfg selling xyz product is going to say "Hey our units are great!"

Thought some discussion might help someone else wondering what the heck the differences are, which company to purchase from. Pro's and Con's of the units /and or the companies behind the units.


.

Only trying to make the point that we've now gone 2 pages and we are running around in circles.
All the products are similar, IMO, Fortin has the edge and answers all your questions bar the second.
Your car doesn't need a CAN system, it's not going to help.
Please don't lecture on something you allegedly know nothing about, the more questions you ask, the more confused you're going to get.
Just get out there and work on the damned car.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.