Printer Friendly Forum Posts - 550esp rs relay satellite

1987 Buick Grand National

DEI 550ESP

The wiring in my car was getting out of control with all the gauges, stereo and alarm stuff I have been installing over the years so I decided to do some spring cleaning.

I have read and read and searched and searched...I can't find the answer to this one...I believe I am just not seeing the forest for the trees...

My remote start relay satellite is just like it should be, except, I have THREE orange wires connected to my accessory relay.

85 - orange wire from 5-pin harness
86 - red 12v jumper wire connected to all relays 86 and 3A fuse to 2nd IGN relay, 87.
87 - red 12v 30A fused to constant power source (also jumped to starter relay 87)
30 - orange to "run" - which in my car is orange (although the install manual says this should be "accessory")

But what I don't understand is, I also have 87a - orange to "run / accessory" - which in my car is brown.

So, when the relay is at rest, the two orange wires ("run" and "accessory") will be closed. And when the relay is energized, the "run" and "12v constant" wires will be closed.

Not sure why this is, and was hoping someone could explain it to me...

I have enclosed a diagram for reference...

TIA!

posted_image

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

In you car, the orange wire is hot in RUN, but powers the Climate Control and Power Windows. It is an accessory circuit, in that it is not powered up in START, but isn't powered in ACCY either. So the orange wire should be treated as an Accessory Circuit by depowering it in START to remove the blower load while cranking.

The wire for RUN (Ignition) is the Pink wire at ignition switch.

What the 87a connection on Relay #2 does is allow your power windows and blower motor to operate in the ACCY key position. But your Brown Wire ACCY circuit (radio, wipers, cruise control) will NOT be powered during RS operation). This took me awhile to figure out. You can leave it the way it is, if you like the way things work. (PW and Blower in ACCY, and no radio in RS).

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I just did a 551T in a Syclone a week ago.(A GN owner knows what a Syclone is). I believe the relay packs are identical. Your diagram colors are same as my relay pack, so this should work for you too.

Here's how I did it:

In your diagram, relay #3 (IGN 1) and relay #4 (IGN 2) have a common trigger from the 5-pin ribbon connector (pink). At the 5-pin ribbon connector swap the positions for the pink and orange wires. You now have 2 ACCY relays, and 1 IGN relay (the former ACCY relay #2 in your diagram).

After the swap, connect the heavy relay output wires as follows:

Relay #1 (30) Purple to Yellow (START) @ ign switch
Relay #2 (30) Orange to Pink (IGN) @ ign switch
Relay #3 (30) Pink to Brown (ACCY) @ ign switch
Relay #4 (30) Pink/Wht to Orange (HVAC & PW (ACCY2)) at ign switch.

Lastly, document these changes in your installation manual so another installer or yourself will be able to figure out what you've done.

Please let us know how it came out. Cheers.

here is brand new 550ESP relay bank. The only relay that has a wire on the 87a terminal is the igintion. That wire is for the alarm to sense the ignition when the RS is NOT being used. It was a clever was to remove the wire from the circuit and eliminate false alarms when remote starting.
Where did you get your relays from? Were they possibly made for another model RS?
posted_image

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

if the relays are wired as you say, then once connected, whatever is on the orange 87a wire would be on all the time.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

itsyuk wrote:

if the relays are wired as you say, then once connected, whatever is on the orange 87a wire would be on all the time.

That's what I thought too. Then I looked at it again.

(B+) is on terminal 87. (Not 30). So 87a is not connected to B+ when the RS is not active. (Relay at rest). It's a weird way to get the HVAC (car orange wire) powered up as an ACCY circuit, and get the power windows to work in key-in-ACCY, but that's what it does.

I forgot about the yellow wire on 87a of IGN relay for the alarm. Thanks. If his GN uses that wire, my suggestion requires incorporating this wire.

i see that now.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

i would remove any wire that is not yellow from all 87a terminals and live happily ever after.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

davep. wrote:

In you car, the orange wire is hot in RUN, but powers the Climate Control and Power Windows. It is an accessory circuit, in that it is not powered up in START, but isn't powered in ACCY either. So the orange wire should be treated as an Accessory Circuit by depowering it in START to remove the blower load while cranking.

The wire for RUN (Ignition) is the Pink wire at ignition switch.

What the 87a connection on Relay #2 does is allow your power windows and blower motor to operate in the ACCY key position. But your Brown Wire ACCY circuit (radio, wipers, cruise control) will NOT be powered during RS operation). This took me awhile to figure out. You can leave it the way it is, if you like the way things work. (PW and Blower in ACCY, and no radio in RS).

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

I just did a 551T in a Syclone a week ago.(A GN owner knows what a Syclone is). I believe the relay packs are identical. Your diagram colors are same as my relay pack, so this should work for you too.

Here's how I did it:

In your diagram, relay #3 (IGN 1) and relay #4 (IGN 2) have a common trigger from the 5-pin ribbon connector (pink). At the 5-pin ribbon connector swap the positions for the pink and orange wires. You now have 2 ACCY relays, and 1 IGN relay (the former ACCY relay #2 in your diagram).

After the swap, connect the heavy relay output wires as follows:

Relay #1 (30) Purple to Yellow (START) @ ign switch
Relay #2 (30) Orange to Pink (IGN) @ ign switch
Relay #3 (30) Pink to Brown (ACCY) @ ign switch
Relay #4 (30) Pink/Wht to Orange (HVAC & PW (ACCY2)) at ign switch.

Lastly, document these changes in your installation manual so another installer or yourself will be able to figure out what you've done.

Please let us know how it came out. Cheers.

Hello and thank you for your reply. I like things the way the are, so I will keep it as is...

BTW, I have no yellow wire...I have the FSM and I don't see it there either...

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

itsyuk wrote:

here is brand new 550ESP relay bank. The only relay that has a wire on the 87a terminal is the igintion. That wire is for the alarm to sense the ignition when the RS is NOT being used. It was a clever was to remove the wire from the circuit and eliminate false alarms when remote starting.
Where did you get your relays from? Were they possibly made for another model RS?

Thanks for your reply. My relays don't look like that. They look like the ones I my diagram...

FWIW, I have read up a lot on these...and I do see some differences (albeit rare) in some of the harness. For example...my starter kill relay does not have the green and black wires...it has orange and black instead...

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

itsyuk wrote:

here is brand new 550ESP relay bank. The only relay that has a wire on the 87a terminal is the igintion. That wire is for the alarm to sense the ignition when the RS is NOT being used. It was a clever was to remove the wire from the circuit and eliminate false alarms when remote starting.
Where did you get your relays from? Were they possibly made for another model RS?

Here is mine:
posted_image

itsyuk wrote:

if the relays are wired as you say, then once connected, whatever is on the orange 87a wire would be on all the time.

Copy that...

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

itsyuk wrote:

i would remove any wire that is not yellow from all 87a terminals and live happily ever after.

Sorry, I don't understand...why?

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

Another query...

Can I temporarily use the alarm with the RS relay satellite unplugged?

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

That orange wire that sits on the 87a terminal has no place in a typical install (tape it off to keep it from touching anything).
I think someone put it there to power something when the key was "on" but they wanted that something NOT powered when remotely started.

I could see that. Like if you had a radar detector hard wired. Or used in DRL or twi-light sentinal hack. Or nitrous..... who knows.

If you look closely at each of our relay banks......if you were to remove that orange from the 87a terminal, our relay banks would be the same except the two middle relays' physical position. But the wiring would be the same.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

itsyuk wrote:

here is brand new 550ESP relay bank. The only relay that has a wire on the 87a terminal is the igintion. That wire is for the alarm to sense the ignition when the RS is NOT being used. It was a clever was to remove the wire from the circuit and eliminate false alarms when remote starting.
Where did you get your relays from? Were they possibly made for another model RS?

In your pic, your 30's are on the top, and your 87's are on the bottom, correct?

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

itsyuk wrote:

That orange wire that sits on the 87a terminal has no place in a typical install (tape it off to keep it from touching anything).
I think someone put it there to power something when the key was "on" but they wanted that something NOT powered when remotely started.

I could see that. Like if you had a radar detector hard wired. Or used in DRL or twi-light sentinal hack. Or nitrous..... who knows.

If you look closely at each of our relay banks......if you were to remove that orange from the 87a terminal, our relay banks would be the same except the two middle relays' physical position. But the wiring would be the same.

I think my two middles relays are in the same physical position as your relays...

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

So, as it sits now, on the ACCY relay, for the wires on my car's IGN side:
the orange (hot in run, power to AC and WDO),
and
the brown (hot in run or accy, power to wiper and radio)
are connected when the relay is at rest.

This is a mystery to us...but it doesn't really matter, correct?

When the alarm does the RS, and the ACCY relay is energized:
the orange (hot in run, power to AC and WDO), is connected to 12V,
and
the brown (hot in run or accy, power to wiper and radio), is open.

Unless you guys see a reason why I should change it, I am going to leave it as is...

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

yes .. just like yours.
actually my statement about swapping the two middles physical location was wrong.
other than the 87a orange wire, they are the same.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

just make sure the 87a orange and other unused wires are taped off. and you are good to go.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

itsyuk wrote:

just make sure the 87a orange and other unused wires are taped off. and you are good to go.

Sorry to be dense, but what would it matter if I left it as is?

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

when your key is on (not remote started), if the 87a orange wire finds/touches ground it may spark or blow out the fused link that powers all of the car or ruin the "orange" relay (except the headlights). Whatever it would do probably would not be pretty.
Nobody like live wires hangin around.
Any unused wires from the relay bank should be indiviually taped off.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

itsyuk wrote:

when your key is on (not remote started), if the 87a orange wire finds/touches ground it may spark or blow out the fused link that powers all of the car or ruin the "orange" relay (except the headlights). Whatever it would do probably would not be pretty.
Nobody like live wires hangin around.
Any unused wires from the relay bank should be indiviually taped off.

Sorry, I meant what if I left it all connected as is, not disconnecting anything...

-------------
Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

im gonna say this one more time.
totally removing the 87a wire is the smartest thing. It has no relevance to a regular install. your car was not designed to operate with the GM orange and brown wires tied together.
here is how GM designed it ...
GM brown wire runs things that you may need to use when the key is in the "ACC" or "ON" position. wipers, radio and some cars power windows, some cars not (i dont know why)

GM orange runs everything else (except ignition) that is operated by turning the key to "ON" .

GM pink runs ignition and engine running related things.

leaving the evil 87a orange connected to brown would connect GM brown to GM orange when the car is not running but if the car is switched to ACC. everything (except ignition) in the car would be powered from the single GM orange wire. a disaster waiting to happen.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

itsyuk wrote:

im gonna say this one more time.
totally removing the 87a wire is the smartest thing. It has no relevance to a regular install. your car was not designed to operate with the GM orange and brown wires tied together.
here is how GM designed it ...
GM brown wire runs things that you may need to use when the key is in the "ACC" or "ON" position. wipers, radio and some cars power windows, some cars not (i dont know why)

GM orange runs everything else (except ignition) that is operated by turning the key to "ON" .

GM pink runs ignition and engine running related things.

leaving the evil 87a orange connected to brown would connect GM brown to GM orange when the car is not running but if the car is switched to ACC. everything (except ignition) in the car would be powered from the single GM orange wire. a disaster waiting to happen.

lol...evil...OK, got it...

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

cool.
im goin to bed, my brain is tired.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

On your relay pack, there is a relay with a metal mounting tab. It appears to be used on the circuits in question. Unplug the relay and see if there is a diagram on it, or if it has the terminals labelled.
Take a pic of it. I'm wondering if it is a SPST-DM type. It could have two independent normally open contacts. That would explain it powering the accessory circuits.

Ween] wrote:

On your relay pack, there is a relay with a metal mounting tab. It appears to be used on the circuits in question. Unplug the relay and see if there is a diagram on it, or if it has the terminals labelled.
Take a pic of it. I'm wondering if it is a SPST-DM type. It could have two independent normally open contacts. That would explain it powering the accessory circuits.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

I did not notice that. On the side, it has a diagram with two arms and instead of 87a, it has 87b.

Nice one...

I have to update my diagram now...

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Shawn
John 15:17
Four boys (basketball, volleyball, scouts, etc)
1987 Buick GN - Daily Driver
1985 Olds 442 - WHITE - lowrider - under restoration for ever
Wifes car - 2007 Jeep Commander

Updated diagram.

posted_image

Great call Ween. thats why Ween is a platnum guy and im just a silver one.

i cant believe i didnt think of that because years ago i had to work on a a car with a dei alarm/start unit and the guy had where every time you remote started the car with the alarm set, the alarm would go off saying it was the ignition.

about 25 minutes workin on it i figured out the alarm ign sense didnt work when alarm was set and NOT remote started. as im scratching my head, the guy says "all happened since i replaced the ignition relay"

come to find out, he went to walmart and bought a relay they sold as a foglight relay. and since it looked the same, he plugged it in........it was the ST model.

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.