rs 730 draining battery

I have a 2000 buick park ave ultra and I've recently disconnected my alarm because it was draining my battery. I disconnected the BLACK/ white wire first (neutral safety wire i think)to see if it would stop, but it didn't. I then disconnected the heavy 6-pin harness and it still drained my battery. I did notice every time I started my car up with the key my remote would beep then it would display engine stop as if the car has been already running from remote start input. after I removed the fuse from the alarm brain. the drain has stopped. plz help

Not the alarm, maybe car battery or alternator need changing or you have an aftermarket relay drawing power. Is there an external starter cut relay?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

If your battery is weak, it'll kill the battery faster.

Most DEI alarms will kill a good battery within 3 weeks if the vehicle isn't started to recharge.

For whatever reason, DEI didn't believe in using a low current brain. They could make a brain that measures resistance across all sensors and the antenna, but then they'd be spending more money! They will slowly (like I said, a couple weeks) drain the battery. I've had my battery go dead after 3 days before, and I needed a new battery.

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

You need to use a DVM that handles 10amps so you can do a current draw test..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIKNnwEjIs

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Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services

Did you install a starter kill relay? If so, did you power the coil of that relay with constant power? If so, you should have powered it via Ignition or the actual starter wire.

sorry for the delay, no I didn't install the starter kill. But as I said when I start my vehicle my alarm remote does 3 beeps then shows engine stop as if the remote starter has been running on its own. But I never heard the car cut on by itself. I'm using a universal xpress kit to bypass the patsIII. I have the GWR wire from the alarm connected to the input of this bypass kit. I've read over the rs730 installation manual and maybe was thinking I should use the yellow wire from the 24-pin harness???? The previous remote start (commando or something like that) that I removed didn't do this

Leave the GWR as is the effect is no different and GWR is the proper wire for connecting a bypass module.

How old is your car battery? When you start it does the remote always beep or is it only certain scenarios e.g. After being parked all night vs leaving the gas station or any short stop?

You can always do a check on current draw with an amp meter.

most of the time it's when it's parked over night. But when I'm running in a store or something it doesn't do it. I got the car in april of this year so I don't know how old the battery is. It doesn't look that dirty so it isn't that old. I don't have a vm to check anything.

By what you've said the beeping seems be a symptom of low battery. Without knowing it's age and condition (testing it) it's a top suspect. The alarm will always draw more power than if it wasn't installed (fuse pulled) and it will kill a weak battery that much quicker. Some alarms and sensors draw more current than others.

Did you install the system? If so what do you have wired in? Anything unique/non-typical?

You bought the car in april of this year, did the whole engine bay happen to be clean? It's easy enough to clean a battery and/or engine bay, doesn't mean it's as new as it looks.

Testing is much needed to positively pinpoint your problem. A cheap DMM can be had for cheap.

yea i wired a glass sensor and tilt sensor with diodes. also the shock sensor. The 3 beeps are slow it always beep that way when shutting down or turning off remote start. thats why i say its like its starting itself up with actually starting. but i did disconnect the ground wire for the remote start and unplugged the harness and the battery still drains so ill get the battery checked out at autozone or something

Battery turned out to be bad guess ill replace it and see what happens

Well done.
Howard pegged it so confidently (again!) but so did the later replies.
[ How dare they - I though batteries were my forte, not theirs! (Of course a battery could always be the problem. The expertise is knowing that is isn't the alarm - and that's not my expertise!!) ]


I merely wanted to add that hopefully whoever fitted your battery did an alternator voltage check after fitting.
It amazes me how often that is NOT done. Hence if your battery failed due to over- or under-charging, the new one will do the same...
My battery supplier always checks. His batteries typically last 8 - 10 years; even 6 years from battery abusers like me. Ironically they are cheaper than our KMarts, Autobarns and Super(NOT)cheaps.

Err Uncle Peter I DID mention alternator.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I know you did - I was merely emphasising the alternator effect - ie, that it might be the result of a bad battery, and many battery fitters do not check alternator voltage.

As to determining a bad battery IF the alternator is faulty, well... IMO (read: d'oh!) you need to fix the alternator when or before fitting a new battery, but maybe the battery is ok & comes good after a good charge - whether a >20A charge or after an equalisation cycle. Then again a long discharged battery may seem ok but lack capacity (the old survive summer but fail winter routine).
I just hate it when a new battery fails within months because of a faulty alternator that should have been easy to spot using a $5-$10 DVM, or even a rev with headlights.

Battery kills Alternator
Alternator kills Battery
It's a vicious cycle

Oldspark, your not thinking like a capitalist. If you sell someone a new battery and their bad alternator kills it then you can sell them a new battery all over again at which point you point out that their alternator is defective and damage to the previous battery is not covered under warranty.

LOL - where's the Like button?! Alas I don't act like a "greedy" profiteering capitalist, but I can think like one. I admit my naivety thinking the y2k bug situation was the result of unforseeing idiots, but since then I see most possibilities for various gains.


However I'd like to add that IMO batteries do not kill alternators - except for badly designed and substandard alternators.
I have oft written about my experiences with Bosch alternators and I have heard similar of certain GM alternators. But in general alternators should be self limiting. Only weak power rectifiers will blow under transients or heavy loads (eg, the IMO bullsh spouse tale about keeping jumper batteries connected for a while ins NOT bulssh for Bosch) and rewound higher output alternators often burn out under prolonged overloads.

In my dealings with typical Jap alternators, my only fail was the unsoldering of the sense diode in a Hitachi after 1 hour of using the starter motor and a 2nd battery with winch to pull me out of a bog.
I have seen a wrongly labelled Massey battery repeatedly reverse connected to an old 25A alternator (also Hitachi) without even blowing its diodes, and copious instances powering multiple flat batteries or collapsed batteries without alternator damage. (Sure - 3 month old Optima batteries etc may have extensively burned the (rear of the) car, but the alternator was fine.)


Pardon me for using this as a segway to my alternator propaganda, but I'm somewhat tired of substandard alternators causing misunderstanding. Then again, there are those that continue to say how bad grounds or high cable resistances or bigger batteries cause "a bigger strain" on alternators when in fact the opposite is true. (Seriously - how can a higher resistance aka LOWER CURRENT load cause HIGHER alternator output? As to whether a higher output constitutes "a strain"... Well, yes, it may blow crap alternators, but "strain" a self limiting (IMO) normal alternator?)

oldspark wrote:

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Pardon me for using this as a segway to my alternator propaganda

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I can't address all that but I will say that batteries that go bad and develop internal shorts will overheat an otherwise good alternator as it tries to charge the battery that has a short. High resistance and oversized (or very depleted) batteries are also an issue. Oversized/depleted batteries like an internal short can overheat the alternator which at the very least will shorten it's life. And high resistance affects voltage sensing which screws with the alternator in it's own way.

Again I can only repeat what I said above. I've had alternators at full output even way below their regulated output (eg, down to 6V) without blowing - nor should they. Even mine lasted one hour but that was not a driving situation besides which it needed merely a resolder - nor blown windings or diodes.
A good alternator is like a properly designed synchronous machine - it should be self limiting and its transient & sub-transient responses can be calculated and tested.
My Bosch could not handle removing the jumper battery immediately and a later Bosch couldn't handle a collapsing battery (probably ~10V), but I am talking about good alternators, not weak crap like those Boschs.   


As to high resistance blowing an alternator - how? An infinite resistance or 1MOhm or 10Ohm will blow an alternator? Note that I am not talking about bad grounds for external-regulator alternators, I am talking typical modern internal regulated alternators. But even if external with a bad ground or high resistance sense, it might blow other electrics, but the alternator itself should not blow - its diodes are likely to handle the higher peak voltages.

oldspark wrote:

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Again I can only repeat what I said above. I've had alternators at full output even way below their regulated output (eg, down to 6V) without blowing - nor should they.

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I'm just going to give a swift and broad answer to all of that. Alternators are not meant to output at full-capacity for 100% duty-cycle.

"Down to 6V" I don't know what you getting at there, in automotive the car won't even run if the electrical system goes that low, non-running car = non-spinning alternator = non-charging alternator = Zero output voltage from alternator.

Also your reference to 25A alternator, I know not of any modern car that has such a low output capacity. Basic motorcycles I've seen with such capacity but again they are "basic" and most don't even have "alternators" but instead stators. Bigger bikes with electrical amenities like honda goldwings have alternators that put out more than twice 25A. I reiterate 25A is exceptionally low on a motor vehicle.

Maybe I need to rephrase my terminology. Maybe I am used to working with invincible or indestructible alternators that essentially only fail thru normal aging. Maybe I'll call them Japanese alternators?

Yes, 25A alternators are uncommon these days. This was a 45 year old Japanese alternator whose ground & B+ (+12V) were reverse connected to a new 12V battery circa 15 years ago. So 45 year old silicon rectifiers sized for a 25A output withstand reverse bias shorts whereas 1980s and later >100A alternators can't even handle supplying post-jumpstarted batteries.
Sure, the reverse bias was short term - maybe up to a second or 2 each time - but I doubt those nee-bad alternators would handle that. I doubt the extra resistance (if any) of the older winding would account for the behavior. Maybe it was simply Jap overdesign which was easier for 25A outputs than 100A outputs 20 years later, but with SCRs that handle thousands of Volts and thousands of Amps, I wonder why alternators don't something better. (Capitalism perhaps? ie - intentional bad or cheap design?)


6V... My car not only runs at 6V, it actually cranked and cold-started with a battery voltage of 5.2V. And yes, it is a 12V system using OEM equipment (admittedly 1985 to 1990 electrics fitted to my 1965 vehicle).
However my point was that I know of alternators that continue to provide power to collapsed battery systems.
Now whilst I question who could possibly do that and how the heck did they not pick such a fault unless it "just" happened - noting I consider it essential to have a dash voltmeter else good voltage alarm system - however I have told of one dude who replaced a faulty 3 month old Optima with another Optima.
[ FYI - He complained of low alternator voltage. I immediately suggested he check his battery. 3 pages later he replaced his 45A alternator with a 75A and the problem was solved. He was back on the 4th page with the same problem. Luckily before any 5th page he replaced his VERY HOT Optima. It turns out the new Optima had 2 collapsed cells - hence nominally an 8V AGM - so it was absorbing up to (say) 300W as pure heat until alternator voltage started collapsing.
Ped?: I assume therefore his 75A alternator was the Jap alternator and not the Bosch alternative also fitted to the particular donor car; a Nissan N13. His OEM alternator was a 45A Jap with external regulator. ]

Anyhow, in the above and other cases the alternators were saturated for extended periods and did not blow.


Maybe you are correct with your statement...

catback wrote:

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Alternators are not meant to output at full-capacity for 100% duty-cycle.

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But I am talking about alternators that do, or at least do so far far longer than the "weak" or bad alternators I refer to.
I guess failed capitalists can make good alternators?

Your comparing old against new and they don't compare anymore. It's like comparing a car crash between a 1970's oldsmobile and a modern prius and complaining the damage is much more extensive and expensive for the same crash. You can't equate the two, the prius is a completely different beast.

If you want a 100 amp alternator built to last then it won't be as light or as small as the 100 amp alternators that fit under the hood of modren cars, nor will it be nearly as affordable. You have the vacuum cleaner scenario, how much will an all metal vacuum cost the average user in money and convenience vs the all plastic ones and which will the majority actually buy?

You live in the disposable throw-away age now. Nothing is meant to last or be fixed anymore, only replaced. This includes the top two rock steadies of long ago: 1) Your career/job and 2) your spouse.

Just because I have used examples of old doesn't mean....

But you have made yourself clear and I agree.
Those that suffer the "vicious cycle" of batteries wrecking alternators now know why.
Those that want to break that vicious cycle of bad batteries or overloads wrecking alternators may heed my writings.


I agree that things are disposable and have a nominal expected life but IMO that doesn't mean things should typically fail under common operating conditions before such time. I have provided my solution for the common alternator (and battery) failure scenarios. I believe the same applies to modern DP etc alternators.


Sorry trigga. Let us know if your old battery damaged your alternator or if your alternator proves to be out of (voltage) spec.

oldspark wrote:

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that doesn't mean things should typically fail under common operating conditions before such time.

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I have to say even the made to be replaced batteries and alternators of today perform quite well under "common operating conditions"

So here's the sidebar:-
You have a six year old BMW and your battery is failing. (About the right battery life for the UK).
The IBS, or intelligent battery sensor monitors the battery and as it starts to fail amongst other things shuts down stop start, audio heater etc.
It also increases the charge from the "intelligent alternator".
When you change that battery you then have to go to a BMW Stealer and have the IBS reprogrammed at a cost of £176 (= US $250) to turn on the accessories and reset the alternator.
What fun.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Yes, that's progress - or capitalism - ensuring everything must be done by service agents. (LOL)

I don't get what catback is saying other than the same old same old, else that new/modern Jap alternators are also now failing after jump starts or overloads like dual batteries etc, added headlights, etc.
By "common" operating conditions I include things like jump starts and certain overloads (eg, discharged or dual batteries etc) except where systems prevent that and no user/owner additions are allowed - but even then I do not accept an alternator that fails as a result of a bad battery etc. Under exceptional circumstances yes, alternator can blow. But even some of those I have outlined, the battery burns or explodes long before. And granted, call me spoilt, but I'd consider the owner of a vehicle that continues to operate a collapsed battery to be an exception... (common as such may be - yet we wonder why modern vehicle require dealer resets?!)

You expect too much. Jump starts are far from "Common operating conditions" I mean what percentage of automobiles out of the whole perform jump starts on a regular/daily basis. Sitting at the pump getting petrol is a more common occurrence.

That said, I have jump started many cars, trucks, big (transport) trucks, and bikes (motorsickles) and I have NEVER had an alternator or other charging system type fail as part of or due to the process of jump starting on either end of the jumper cables.

It is what it is, complaining about it will get you nowhere.

Great - you agree with me. (Keep in mind I never started that jump-start warning; until recently I thought it was yet another bullsh spouse tale.)

Getting back to my original comment re "Battery kills Alternator" - (likewise....) bad batteries should not cause alternators to fail.
That is all. Forget my incidental adjuncts.

oldspark wrote:

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Getting back to my original comment re "Battery kills Alternator" - (likewise....) bad batteries should not cause alternators to fail.
That is all. Forget my incidental adjuncts.

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Why?

Winding saturation.

That says nothing, the way you explain it I should be able to use a 12v 100 amp car alternator as an arc welder. That little thing designed to keep a car battery topped up and run some electrical accessories should have no problem with me using it as a substitute for a much more expensive, bigger, and heavier arc welder.

If you say so... But it is certai8nly not what I meant (tho it has limited merit...)

I am merely pointing out why overloads in general should not be an issue for well designed & built alternators. In this particular case I am referring to flat and collapsed batteries as per my examples (dual batteries; jump starts; 8V Optimas) in response to your vicious cycle comment.

Well if you would make these robust alternators and sell them for the same price as today's run of the mill then they would exist but I'd suspect it would be a highly unprofitable venture assuming you even break even. Silver is a better conductor than copper but we all know copper is king (everywhere) and surely even you don't want to pay the cost to replace all your copper wires with silver when copper is more than sufficient for alot less money.

Don't bet on copper for too long CB think LAN circuits with fibre optics or RF signal propagation.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

catback wrote:

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Well if you would make these robust alternators and sell them for the same price as today's run of the mill ....

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LOL! Yeah, I guess you're right. Hitachi & Mitsubishi (with whatever rebadging as Nissan etc) have certainly proved to be failures haven't they?

It sounds like you haven't had a typical OEM Jap alternator.
Try one next time a battery causes your OEM alternator to fail. If you have already, let me know the details.

And what the heck has this got to do with silver? You're copper. Howard and I are gold (tho Howard is really white gold).