power window wiring

Good day

my friend bought 2 single power window motors with 2 fivepin switches as he could not find a 2door kit.
 
I need to know how to fuse this circuit (fuse size) . Should I wire the power wires of each motor together ,and then to my power supply ignition, or should I wire them with separately with each one on their own fuse. What is the normal amperage on power window motors, I’m using exactly the same motor in image.
 
Thanks in advance
 

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Don't paste text unless from a plain text editor.
I use self resetting circuit breakers which is typical for motors - especially when they can use (say) five times their typical Amperage at their end of travel.

If using fuses, I would definitely fuse separately.
I think I used separate CBs (5A?) for each with a master CB (15-20A) at the power source. Only 2 windows, and each motor is generally only 2-3A and 9-13A at ends or if jammed.    
I used relays rather than specialised switches - not that that impacts fusing.    

The wires from either motor won't be wired to the other motor nor directly to power or ground, they get wired directly to the switch or control module.

Industry standard is a single 15-20A circuit breaker for the entire system. The only time you need to down fuse to a low amperage fuse per leg/side is when using wire not capable of 15A sustained current.

Each switch shows 12v 20amp

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

You mean each switch is rated for 20A?

It's not often I see 20A window motors - not in cars.

But you can use smaller wiring that handles the motors provided the breaker is rated equal or lower.

My door switches are rated similarly but only switch a few hundred mA for the relays.

Thank you old spark,

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Hi Old Spark! I want to know is it safe to get each motors supply from the ignition wire and won't the motors put too much pressure on the ignition wire.and if I wire another switch on the driver side to the passenger motor,which means I will just have to take the motor wires from the switch to the legs of the passenger door motor.what will happen if I press the passenger switch down on the driver side and someone on passenger side at the same time press the switch up,won't it cause a short.can you please explain to me how that part works.thank in advance.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

If the IGN circuit can handle the window power it should be fine.
I don't have that problem since I use relays and I take their power from a fused battery +12V feed. [I never add multi-Amp "loads" to the IGN circuit; instead I use relays with their coils controlled by IGN +12V (or ACC +12V etc) and whatever other switching is required.]
The powering of the relay coil determines when the windows operate - eg with ACC or IGN or anytime from +12V.

5-pin wiring should be such that destructive shorts are not allowed. If allowed, the fuse will blow (or in my case, CB trip until it self resets).

Thank you,I understand the ignition switching 100%.about the shorts,are you telling me its designed not to short out if there's 2 switches on one motor.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Using two switches per one motor, they are wired in series. On dedicated 5 pin window switches they are isolated on the POS side, the ground sides are linked.
In other words,how the switch is wired controls the motor.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

i see that both legs of a 5pin switch rest at ground.will it be ok if i connect the driver switch legs to the pass switches legs with a on and of switch to control the power supply to passenger switch to avoid a short.even if the passenger supply switch is off,it will still have ground on their legs. when pressing driver switch can send a +pulse to one of the the legs of the passenger switch which has ground on it.can that cause a short.or should they just never be pressed together in different directions to avoid short.i dont think its shorting out on 3 wire power window kits.i cannot find a diagram on the net to see how these switches get wired without shorting it out.all i want to do is to fit a extra 5wire switch on the driver door panel to operate the passenger wihout any shorting.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

No the way a window switch is wired in your case, both motor legs sit at ground. These two wires then go over to the remote (passenger) switch where they become the two ground legs. A separate 12V+ feed joins them which should be your original fused feed to both switches, 25 amps, either from battery feed to fuse box or ignition switched (optional) via a relay.
You seem to have the original wiring arse over tit.
I'll do a diagram for you.
Are you using Spal 5 terminal switches?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I'm not sure,but I bought everything loose,that is why I'm fitting a extra switch.I'm having problems uploading.I will appreciate the diagram.thanks for your patience.



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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

I see that one picture went through.the picture I have uploaded is exactly the same one I'm ising,just that I have single switches and I used my own wiring.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

This is the wiring for two switches, one motor:-
2_switch_window_wiring.png

By the way loose that POS blue connector lower right of photo, rubbish, we're not allowed to use them.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Google this Spal power windows wiring diagram.
second row down, second from right.
Yours looks like a cheap Chinese copy of a Spal but the wiring will be the same.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I have to tell you that about 45 years ago when I did my first set, I couldn't get my head around the wiring, blew about 5 fuses before I got it.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Hi Howie! I really appreciate.I would go with the diagram you did.your diagram makes it clear that there's now way for shorts.I learned something else today.I'm those type that cannot sleep unless I figure something out.I'm just going to draw it over so that the driver can be on the right side

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Sleep? You're in the same time zone! (But about 6000 miles south).
BTW I should have done it that way, we're also right hand drive.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

No no,I'm just saying,its 8h00pm now,just got dark now.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Oh of course, one hour ahead and plus +1 hour 'cause it's the winter down there.
Daughter lives in New Zealand, my summer she's 11 hours ahead, my winter 13!

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Wow!for how long are you in the 12volt game now?and is there a lot of South African members on here.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

About 45 years, retired 3 years ago but:-
a) UK pensions are a joke.
b) I keep getting called back to "help out".

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

ofcoz they going to call you back you and old spark are the main masters in here

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Yes, he's known for the technically correct but long answers, I do short sometimes abrasive but always straight to the point.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I have notice that.I see I have another star at my name now,I think I should read more about it?

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

You go to Copper at 50 + posts.
We'll always help people like yourself who aren't afraid to ask when they're not sure.
It's the ones who won't pay to have something installed but want "painting by numbers" that is lead by the nose to join this wire to that.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Thanks,although I feel like I'm irritating you guys sometimes.I felt like that earlier when I talked about the shorts.and ya,I will always want to understand how something operate before I fit it,that way it will also be easier to troubleshoot it.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

I'm curious, but how does a short happen in your wiring?
Is there a diagram for it? Usually it will only be a case of +ve else GND at each end.

Apologies for my soft brevity.

Don't worry uncle Peter, I showed our friend the correct wiring, hence no shorts if the correct switches are used.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Hi Old Spark!just like you say it.I totally had a different picture of how it must be done.Howies diagram that he sent me made it very clear.the switches almost work like the double relays that we use for mercedes benz single control wire.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

GOOD! I was certain it is [i[shortless tho I was too lazy to check. But I am aware of short possible switch wiring, however that can usually be solved with some rewiring.


And the relays should be exactly the same as the "raw" switches they replace. It's only the thing that flips the switch that varies - ie, a human hand or an electro-magnetic coil.
My oft preached advantages or desires for relays include:
- take hi-currents away from switches;
- minimises heavy current wiring & switching (eg, batt thru fuse and then thru relay contacts to the motor);
- additional controls are easier to add - use GND switching else +12V via isolating diodes from controllers (switch, RemoteOn, ACC +12V, charge light) to energise the relay(s); only low currents are involved, typically under 250mA     
- relays are easier & cheaper to replace than switches (tho in practice, with the reduced switch current both the switch and the relay will probably last the life of the vehicle. My ute turns 50yo this year).
- (ergo...) spare SPDT relays solve most related failures.
- there's a far greater range of switches that can supply relay coil currents and they needn't be large. There is limited selection for higher current switches.
NOTE that the above is iaw my usual doctrine Everyone has a right to my opinion, but you should find most agree but explain differently.

I also like how adding extra controls is simplified... No need for an extra high-current switch, a CPU or sensor can provide +12V to the relay coil via a 1N4004 etc isolating diode.
Sure, some thought is needed if different power circuits are used, but instead of using 10A or 30A etc diodes in the power feeds, use battery +12V via a fuse for motor power and each coil-switching +12V input comes from its own supply (+12V or IGN or ACC or HU) via the usual isolation diode.
Ground switching changes the above - eg no need for isolation diodes EXCEPT if the inputs need to be independent. Connect the relay coil GND (85) to each grounding input but only add diodes so a GND does not effect others - eg, door#3 triggers different circuits to door#1 and it should not turn in the aircon anyway...

But yeah, relays for high current or remote or complex switching applications.
I usually have relays switch the hotside (+12V to 30 etc) but of late I find GND signalling be the most practical with digital circuits in mind (ie, CPUs etc tend to use GND aka "Open Collector" switching), however I tend to prefer hot switching and control in automotive situations. (GND switched +12V hot horns are perfect, but GND-switched lighting circuits seemed to provide most faults...)

I am thankful for the information Old Spark!tell me,is it necessary to put a fuse on common 30 to the motors while it already has a fuse on 87 to battery source? The same question goes for 86 +ve switching from ignition 12v?

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

Only 87, (batt) 25 amps and 86 (ign) 2 amps.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Yeah (Howie), a fuse protects ITS downstream distribution.
IE - all items downside of a fuse shall have current ratings NO LESS than that fuse... until another fuse takes over.   

As to what protection (fuses) to use varies with taste or application.   EG - for some a common circuit breaker for all windows is fine, but if my girlfriend's window has stalled because of some Inland Taipan's jammed neck I'd still want to to be able to close my window - maybe to light a smoke even if that smoke becomes my last. Hence my usual superfat & unblowable flink supply (typically using 60A - 100A flinks) which later splits into each motor's self-resetting circuit breaker supply. I expect the same distribution in my next 4-door vehicles.   

And kiddies, search the Inland Taipan aka Fear Snake - it's all true!

Yes but in practise Peter, I would wire it as my diagram, as I have for the last 45 odd years of powering windows, locks etc.
Come to think of it, that 1-2 amp fuse I mentioned for the ign feed to 86, never actually done it. Gilding the lilly.
If you wanted to go OCD split the 30 wire and a 15 amp fuse to each of the two driver switches. BUT.....

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Coil fuses - I've never bothered. Sometimes I consider a thin cable section - sometimes #85 to GND - as the fusible link. Otherwise I use sufficiently heavy wire so the IGN or whatever fuse looks after it.
However I have fuse-protected the line for source protection.


My distributions usually stem from wanting the lowest voltage drop whilst minimising copper & cost. For decades I've added headlight relays - usually taking +12V from alternator instead of the battery - but in later years I incorporated source independence and redundancy with simple repair methods. EG - left & right beam power thru separate feeds; replace failed lowbeam relay with nearside hibeam relay.
Whilst my headlight left & right (or was it hi & lo?) source distributions each handle way in excess of 100A, my window power is more modest. It's a "standard" blade feed from battery +12V - probably a "master" ATS 30A breaker else fuse - to my passenger side knee mounted window switching box. It houses the 4 micro-DIN relays for my 2-door ute windows, plus two 10A ATS self-resetting breakers - one for each window motor, and I think the terminals & wiring for later control expansion. (FYI - micro-DIN relays are often rated for 16A to 24A etc - not the 30A of their older mini-DIN (cube) relays.)

I find it advantageous. A single as long as possible feed of amply sized copper. Then split for circuit independence.
I can operate any window irrespective of the state of the others.
I remove one fuse to isolate all window power.
I have max voltage at motors (or lights or loads) for minimum copper outlay.

Plus new projects often add to existing power stubs - no need to ponder OEM distribution nor necessarily add more "master" feeds. My power windows take their +12V from my audio's battery feed.

Actually, I recommend battery fed or battery to internal fusebox and no relay.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Thank you guys! Ill keep everything in mind.

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Do it once,do it right - This means no short cuts. You never get paid twice for having to do the job twice because it wasn't done right the first time.