simple relay switch wiring

could you advise with the wiring of a relay (hella 4ra 003510-08) as the technicals explain, but skip over the switch placement.
Can you tell me simply the configuration to wire a relay, especially how a switch is wired to the relay, I think with the option to place before the relay gets power or in its normal mode please?.
I tried to wire the relay as per instructions but could not get it to function. (for my spotlights)

POS feed to switch.
Switch to 86
Ground (earth) to 85
Batt. fused 15 amps for fogs to 87.
To fogs from 30.

NEG feed to switch.
Switch to 85
Batt. fused at 15 amps to 86 and 87.
To fogs from 30.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

OK, is that BATT pos to switch pos, to the neg to 86.
And Batt pos fused 15amps for light to 87.
Neg batt feed to neg switch.
Neg switch to 85 on same wire or 2 different wires.

Also to confuse things even more, the ability to use a 'dipper' or dim the lights is available when connected to the light system of car but what is it separate of that, can it be done with the rig so far.?

Sorry I think your last post has confused me even more.
Yes you can use a 5 pin, aka 87a or changeover relay, commonly use as a hi/lo beam switching device

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I'd suggest a new feed for the lights,
Hence from battery+ thru a fuse self-resetting circuit breaker as near the battery as practical, and then to relay 30.
Then from 87 to the light(s).

85 to GND - ie, a good chassis GND point or screw etc else to batt- or some other ground wire. (The relay coil should consume 250mA (1/4 Amp) or less so its loading is negligible.)

86 is to your +12V switch that controls your spotlights - ie, the relay, so 86 to your switch which gets its +12V from whatever you need - ie, batt+ if you want them on anytime, else ACC or maybe IGN +12V, or from the headlight or park light circuit.
The switch's +12V should also be fused but you can use any existing fuse (lights, accessories, etc) provided the switch wiring is rated higher than that fuse.

The heavy wiring from battery thru relay to lights should be heavy enough to handle the spotlight current plus a bit extra (usually at least 20-30% extra).
Its fuse must be rated equal to or less than the wire and relay ratings.


Search Google Images for wiring spotlight relays - there's lots of diagrams eg gadgetjq.com wiredrivinglights which references accessconnect.com.
There was another cutie at offroader's Automotive Wiring Tips but my tip is it's a fire waiting to happen (they show 10A cables to each light downstream from their 20-25A fuse!).


Regarding dipper relays for hi/lo beams, I suggest 2 plain 4 pin relays. IE - each beam has its own relay and the dip switch selects which one. That is simpler and more reliable than having a 'master' power (on-off) relay which feeds the changeover (5-pin) hi/lo selector relay.
Using the changeover system, if the master relay fails, you lose both beams whereas a failed a relay using the relay per beam method only effects that beam. And if the lowbeam relays fails, just swap it for the hibeam relay.
It's also easier to separate the fusing for each beam since each relay can have its own supply - ie, fuse etc ... I mean, self-resetting circuit breaker (of course!). [ I've corrected my previous "fuse" above. ]

Relay-wise the above may be academic since most people buy 5 pin relays even if only 4 are needed, hence they only need to keep spares of the one type. But wiring for the separate "one for each beam" relays is usually easier.

So my 4pin relay is inadequate for hi/lo break spottys, a 5pin is the compensation or where do I get a hi/lo selector rely.

Which is better to connect the switch? a fused wire to 85 or 86? Is the fuse representational of how much watts the spots use and how do you distinguish what to use, they are 100w...!? Fuses are considered more effective before a relay or after?

And for linking into the car headlights does the type of beam cause the spots to be on when selected on low and off when hi beams used?

I suppose its lucky a more technical question wasn't required from this connect a standard light system like con figuring resistors etc. The instructions were followed from the manufacturer but no good. So here I am.

THANKYOU for the assistance.

Just tell us what you're trying to achieve, I'll draw you a circuit.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

custum, you are really asking us basics that you should be telling us or that you should know.
For example, if it's a road vehicle then normal rules/laws require spotlights to be part of the hibeam circuit.
Then there's basic electricals like fusing ASAP after the power source to protect the distribution (wiring, relays, switches); P=VI; & fuse the hot side only - tho I recently answered the latter on just recently, and the ASAP fusing is something that may cause argument.

To help you NOW, I suggest Howie's last reply. But I'd also suggest you read other replies on here or look at other general references like bcae1. Not only might that save us repeating basics already & better explained elsewhere, but should awesomely help you in the future and possible prevent your vehicle burning to the ground - eg, do you know to (dis)connect vehicle the GND last(first)?
The 4th page in Hella Relays pdf (p 2.04) might also help. (The other pages IMO show "pre-standardised" variations for the same part.)

Re the 4pin vs 5pin relay, I tried to explain that IMO two 4pins for hi/lo is better than one of each. NOTE however that assumes a relay is used to switch the heavy current to both beams - and who would not use relays for conventional lighting (ie, not LEDs nor HIDs etc; car collectors excluded)?   

I'm curious what resistors would be recommended for a relay or spotlight installation. Are you sure they aren't talking about resistance? Any link or name for those instructions? FYI - I was just telling Howard how much incorrect documented information - & expert opinions - exists in webland.

As a design example from your 100W specification...
First cut/estimate - using the "div-10" rules - 100W/10V = 10A, hence 10A per bulb. I'd suggest therefore 15A wire & fuses.

Reality gets trickier. Without explaining, 100W could mean 100W/12V = 8.3A; or 100W/13.8V = 7.2A; or the latter @ 14.4V => 7.6A (110W); and a Hella bulb should be 100W/13.5 = 7.4A.
A 7A current should mean a 10A fuse and wire of AT LEAST 10A rating is fine. However there is a general working rule that the DESIGN should size fuses (etc?) to run at no more than 70& or 80% of their rating. Hence a 10A fuse for 7A to 8A current is ok.
Some would argue that the 12V @ 8.3A applies and hence choose a 15A fuse.
I'll put is this way: I have 2 100W bulbs and I use wire of greater than 15A rating to each filament (maybe 25A rated?). [ The heavier gauge the wire, the lower the voltage drop (because of less resistance). I can also upgrade to 130W filaments etc... ]
I designed for a 15A breaker for each (or 30A breaker for both) but later substituted 10A (or 20A) breakers to see what happened. They are still fitted (tho they do get quite warm; sometimes hot).

Your relay should handle BOTH 100W lights.
Most similar relays handle 30A or more; the 4RA 003 510-08 handles 40A. Newer micro-DIN etc relays handle less - typically only up to 20A. (I prefer one relay per filament so it doesn't matter.)

Your absolutely right and hit the nail on the head-admittedly I am a newby in electrics.
The point being made, on the net and instructionally is the knowledge known and what's not. RULE always know what you do and double check with electrics, that is all I am doing, amongst collecting tidbits for knowledge base.
But take this post from another site to read.........


Ok here's a neat trick get 2 relays, one closed and one open, put them inline with one relay going to the low and the other going to the high. When power is applied with the switch in the off position the low beam will be energized, now when you flip over to your high beams you run power through the switch, this sends power to the closed and open relays, they'll swap positions, the closed switch on the low beam will open shutting it off, the open relay will close and send power to the high beam. I'll see if I can make it look right on here via keyboard schematics:


+ --------------------------------------- Closed Relay
+ ------------ switch ------------------ Closed Relay -- Low Beam ------ Ground
+ ------------ switch ----------------- Open Relay ----- High Beam ------- Ground
+ --------------------------------------- Open Relay

I don't know if that makes sense but the single switch sends power to both relays when energized they switch positions turning the on to an off and the off to an on. If you do it right you should be able to stuff the relays in behind the headlight, there should be enough room for them that way t still looks pretty clean.

......I also read the instructions of how to build the hella lights which didn't CLEARLY SHOW connections made on the headlight wire, I ended up making an individual system until now. The difference between learning and putting into action are not CLEAR as seen above (its just written), a different way to set the rig but is it more ethical to elaborate ,so, when basically you can do this, choosing the basic setup might be more sensible and less confusing. Information it might be but reading is all it is and easy to confuse.

Here is An answered question.....
      "However there is a general working rule that the DESIGN should size fuses (etc?) to run at no more than 70& or 80% of their rating. Hence a 10A fuse for 7A to 8A current is ok.
Some would argue that the 12V @ 8.3A applies and hence choose a 15A fuse."

.....precisely, clearly why a fuse is now the most important consideration when making electrics, and as close to the power source as possible. Lesson learned straight away!.

My main question is not answered ,as a clear build, as each diagram I've seen complicates even more, this time the link to access connect.com would have sufficed but for the 87a which I don't have; the switch is linked to 87, yet on another it is linked to 85. This might come known to you as an easy but I have no idea why there's a difference or even if you CAN do that. Essentially it doesn't seem safe, hence my question.
Yes, the net taught me the positive comes off first...............
(I wouldn't set foot near the + until the neg was removed/made safe making it safe to drop the + if need be...the system is still alive with the neg in contact)

So don't feel like your wasting space with repetitive basics, make one paste for the answer of everything in it for the basic stuff, helpful accurate information is really needed when one is not sure.

It doesn't seem like the hi/lo will effectually make any difference connected to the suggested hi wire or lo wire as I had hoped so I'll make an alternative system, as long you can verify the switch is + to 85 and the use of relays can be with just one? Then were done, obviously the fuse is answered although I say that because a resetting circuit is better, getting one might be a trip to the city.

Thankyou for your help.

And you can use one relay with 3 amp diodes for the above circuit but with due respect please go and read up on relays first. BTW that standard Hella relay is also known as a Bosch/Tycho "cube" because it's one inch per side plus terminals.
You also in 5 pin relays have type 87a, 87b twin 87s, built in resistive or diode quenching.
ISO convention, i.e. as used by ALL car manufacturers:-
85 switch (coil) NEG
86 switch (coil) POS
87 NO
87a NC
30 common.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Well dear C, for a noob you show much wisdom.

Ok, the "neat trick"... First a diagram extract courtesy of Isuzu...

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Note that in that pic/fig, the current flows from left to right (and top to bottom - the common convention in our culture). IE - the battery and master fuse is to the left of the fig, and the loads (lights) are to the right.

The "RELAY; dimmer" is a 5-pin relay aka SPDT or "change over" relay. We WONs (Were Once Noobs) like Howard and myself - tho I wonder if Howard was ever a noob! - prefer to call them SPDT (Single Pole; Double Throw ie double posiTion) - because of the various 5 pin relays that Howard cautioned about above. They are all 5 pin but not all are SPDT - some are SPST (like your 4-pin relay but with 2 outputs terminals).

The first relay could be a cabin switch like my car originally had old cars used to have. But as I wrote, who these days wants a 20A or larger cable into the passenger cabling thru a high current switch and out to the front headlights? Modern cars use relays. Old farts like me add relays to take the heavy Amperage load off the old switches so the switches last longer; and we get brighter old's cool lights (especially halogens but also tungsten).
Hence the first on/off or power switch is usually a relay - eg "RELAY; lighting" in the above fig.
Incidentally, that fig shows that the light switch (SW; lighting & the dip switch SW; dimmer - shown separately but is in fact a single swittch) is GND switching - they connect the -ve side of the relay coil (85) to GND. The +ve side of the relay coil (86) goes to +12V so if 85 is grounded, the relay actuates.
Remember - a relay is simply a remote switch. A local low current (eg up to 250mA) powers a remote coil (86, 85) that causes HEAVIER contacts (eg, 30A, 40A, 400A) to close.
A relay can do other things like invert a polarity (eg, a -ve or GND voltage can switch a +V or +12V voltage) or isolated different supplies (eg 12V relay to turn on a 230VAC or 110VAC etc load), but that's not relevant here. (Tho that fig uses inversion - a GND signal switches +12V to the lights, or switches the hibeam.)

Yes, it's a neat "trick", but so what? IMO it is less reliable.
Let's say the first power relay (RELAY; lighting, or beam power switch) fails - then you have no hi or low beam.
Picture instead those same 2 relays but where +12V goes to both (ie, the horizontal +12V from the left that goes into the RELAY; lighting also goes to the 2nd relay (RELAY; dimmer).
The output of the first relay RELAY; lighting goes to low beam.
The output of the second relay RELAY; dimmer goes to high beam.
If a relay fails, only one beam is effected. That's my point.
Also, if the master fuse to the power relay fails, both beams are lost whereas in my "fuse & relay per beam" scenario, each beam can be separately fused.

I could ramble on about theoretical reliability versus an actual failure occurs - like when 48 hours north of home doing in excess of 100kmh on dark twisting roads (I used to drive rally) and having the beam fuse fail (luckily we were both too drunk to care) - but I'll skip that for now. (Actually is was a mate's car. His dip switch melted and hence all beams were lost. His antichrist vehicle did not have my relay mods at that stage. But it's the same effect as a SPDT hi/low's neat trick main relay or switch or fuse failing.

I'm sure the above would be simpler if I drew my circuit, but I don't draw. (Ok, I've drawn ONCE only since getting Win7, but that's enough for this year.) But I suspect you have the nouse to sketch it out or know what I mean. (If not, the kick me - ie, say so, or ask.)


And again, as I said, even when you only need a SPST (4pin) relay, always buy a SPDT relay (5pin) because you don't have to use the 5th pin (87a) and it's probably the same price AND why carry two yes of spares when one will do? THAT assumes the relay mount can accept the 5th pin (some are blanked off) and that SPST and SPDT prices are the same, or close enough not to break from "one part suits both".
FYI - even Japanese JECS & JIDEC etc relays once had SPST relays (and mounting bases) with a tab instead of the NC terminal (87a) to prevent substitution, but later they scrapped SPSTs and supplied all as SPDT (else omitted the "blank" tab) and downstream users like car manufacturers allowed for 5-pin SPDT relays in 4-pin SPST locations. That made many people very happy!


Now to 87, 87a, 85 etc.
85 & 86 are the ends of the relay coil. Tho they might be connected to 87 or 30 or even 87a, they do not supply the power (CURRENT) to the load. They merely supply power (voltage; current) to the coil that closes the relay CONTACTS 30 & 87.
If de-energised - ie, insufficient voltage or current to the coil 85 & 86), then contact 30 remains connected to the NC = "Normally Closed" contact 87a - assuming that exists (ie,, SPDT).
Note that as a rule, the NC contact 87a cannot supply as much current as 87. F.ex, the SPDT (5-pin) equivalent of your relay is still rated for 40A from 30 to 87, but only 30A from 30 to 87a.


The 70& (or 80%) rule is subjective. One problem is that some manufacturers have already taken that into account; others haven't. Hence someone's 30A relay may be someone elses 40A relay.

But to say +ve comes off first, that is crap UNLESS talking about VERY old cars (especially 6V) or telco's.
The simple rule is that whenever working on the HOT SIDE, the cold side (aka GND, earth, frame etc) shall be disconnected.
It is simple logic. If your hot side spanner or tool touches (bridges or shorts to) GND/chassis/frame then you have shorted your power supply (eg, battery) to GND etc if that GND is still connected to the supply.
Hence the simple rule - whenever working on the HOT side, ensure the return (GND/chassis/earth/frame) is disconnected. Mind you, I have seen that same rule posted as 12 rules, plus another 12 rules for +ve earth/GND/frame systems.

I have installed the (Individual/alter) light system now and funnily the need for a relay was never needed before, I purchased a switch that would handle the load, but the set up now will prevent volt/watt problems phweew! I think the groud connection was the problem before.

Also I've read the relays can be used with multiple lights connected, like LEDs, if you've any ideas on this rig then we've got a great post!.

Yes there are cheap tricks all over the place, unless you check everything your not safe, makes these forums very needed!. I really think the gear will hold up more than blown lights, the only fault I've ever found.

THANKYOU for explaining the real relay use I would need this information .

Oh well, if you have already purchased a full current switch...
The relays would then only be to (1) reduce heavy wiring in the cabin; (2) reduce voltage drop to lights; (3) increase the life of the switch; (4) enable any switch or uPC etc to be used; & (5) any other reason I haven't mentioned.


But relays are usually not needed for LEDs. I find the notion of using a 250mA relay to switch 20mA or 50mA LEDs etc somewhat ridiculous except where voltage drops or isolation are an issue.

Yeah, who would have guessed, at the time I presumed it was part and parcel of using .... anything electrical, that everything on the wire to the product IS the same as each other component wise, associated with the maximum electrical capacity of that system. Saved me time and a dime.

Led'SSSS.    There are under the car,on-all-the-time,interior,etc all connected to the one relay @ switch, ?if that's possible to run many different types of lights off of one. Assuming it has the same volts(fingers crossed) the wattage will figure itself out..?..yes?
Well that's theory.

As long as all are 12V loads, their current and power sort themselves out when connected to a 12V source - assuming the 12V source can handle it.

All vehicle 12V loads are connected to the battery that can supply hundreds of Amps, yet 20mA LEDs (with resistors) and 12V 3W (250mA) bulbs don't blow.

So the only detail left is whether two or more separate component earth/ground leads can be connected at the same 'bolt' gnd placement. Won't it back flow the 'fault' or risk excess charge down the other wire if its required to operate or gnd?. Or is there a fuse for that. Grounding equipment essentially is a nullifier, that's probably it.

GND/earth is GND & earth - aka "common". There is no backflow if there is no circuit (loop) path.

And grounds are NEVER fused (excluding some rare exceptions).

Great news.

Well thanks for your advice, I will need all that for future projects, things I needed to know. Removed a lot of confusion.