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audiocableguy 
Copper - Posts: 630
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 27, 2003
Location: Idaho, United States
Posted: June 04, 2010 at 12:14 PM / IP Logged  
ianarian is worried about being "balanced on 30 frequencies" however he quotes lines such as "I hate RTA's! A device that has no business taking readings in a vehicle! (4/24/09)
A ruler flat responce is not an automatic win. IMO a rule flat sounds sterile and lifeless. Processing, be it x-overs, equalizers, etc all leave artifacts on the signal. The more processing causes delays, phase shifts and interaction changes.
"Best of the best systems do not happen with a deck-amp-speaker "club trio" configuration."
Many issues are delt with by a competent installer without the "bandaids " you use as a life line. HOW?
Physical driver placement. Correct placement and mounting to eliminatate delays and off axis equalization. This is where imaging comes into play.
Passive X-overs. Impedance and frequency abnormalities can be treated at the driver, not applied globally. Passives change little over time leading to a consistant sound. If one needs an abundant amount of componets here, chances are the drivers don't mate.
Select drivers. Sometimes mixed and matched, sometimes matched off the shelf sets. The components are selected for off axis responce, frequency range and how well they play with others. This is an art within itself. Is a three way better than a two way? Not always.
Decks with say 1V can drive an amp with a 1V setting to full power. The commonly held conception that if it sounds louder it much sound better. This is where a competent installer is matching the speaker requirement with the amp capability.
"Truth is, you have no footwork here to refer to in the matter. Have you been studying the concept for years taking opinions and suggestions on the issue?".
Yes I have. I have 25 years experience in autosound (hobby, former business owner, installer), I make my living as a Live Sound and Recording engineer. 20 year member of AES.
I hold degree in Music Engineering Technology from U of M. Any questions Clear-Com boy?
"Next time you want to play judge about my theories, you had better knock it over with a little bit of proof! You may disagree, but give a reason. I am not here to state just my opinion, I either know or at least have reason to believe what I say."
Your speculations, you believe to be fact, are unfounded to established principles or experience. Reading your former posts this is quit evident.. You are on a forum with professional and educated contributers. Info you are providing to others is full of holes and ill concieved concepts. Autosound isn't rocket science but there are ridgid ideas in which advise is formed. Speculation is fine, but passing it off as fact is something very different.
ianarian 
Copper - Posts: 516
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 24, 2009
Location: California, United States
Posted: June 04, 2010 at 12:20 PM / IP Logged  
Copacetic....
This is what I do for FUN!
DYohn 
Moderator - Posts: 10,741
Moderator spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: June 04, 2010 at 4:28 PM / IP Logged  

ianarian wrote:
Copacetic....

So does that mean you understand?  The point here is to help educate folks like yourself who have some wrong headed ideas about audio.  It's installers who know their stuff like audiocableguy who you should be listening to and learning from, not wasting time arguing with.

Let me know if you are copacetic with the idea that you should hang out here and read as much as you can and learn how to be a better installer, or if you'd rather keep repeating your opinions as facts.  Thanks.

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icearrow6 
Copper - Posts: 497
Copper spacespace
Joined: February 02, 2009
Location: California, United States
Posted: June 04, 2010 at 7:24 PM / IP Logged  
You will be the world's best installer when you realize you can never be the world's best installer.
You become an installer when you know what wires go where. . .
You become a technician when you learn and understand the principles of WHY those wires go there.
You become a professional when you understand and apply your knowledge.
ianarian 
Copper - Posts: 516
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 24, 2009
Location: California, United States
Posted: June 05, 2010 at 6:35 PM / IP Logged  
Now, Now--dont start the victory dance just yet! Remain seated gentlemen we are just about through here. At least, the badgering from my side. ..please and TY.
Copacetic- I was just trying to sound smart.
The RTA is a tie breaker, sometimes reserved for only that purpose, unless the competitions are organized otherwise, correct?
Yaaaa,   I once described in a post how I had sound that was immaculate.(Noted by SQ judge). But realtime results showed peaks or something that we couldnt recognize audibly. IASCA determined the machine is the ultimate judge, just as a tie(or close) in SPL warrants another pass.   It becomes a numbers game.
I had a hand in 6 different SQ project vehicles.   We've tried firing all shapes, styles and sizes of drivers from every which way, twice on Sunday, yadda yadda..... driver and tweeter location changes caused spikes and dips to play musical chairs on different bands. Perfection requires tuning, similar to any musical instrument.
Seems that every time I visit a shop that chooses not to stock or promote these types of devices, when I bring up this topic, -the typical response is: "Why do you think you need one?". My reply is simple: "Control"!
Whatever noise you believe is being increased, its not as relevant when your talking about a signal that is being changed to accommodate for that increase. The unwanted noise caused by the source to begin with, is decreased when strength(E) to the signal level is applied. Results include, but are not limited to: less gain required from the amp.   So now we have reduced background noise in a stronger signal, and the amp is using less gain to amplify the our cleaner signal. Yaaaa?
Increases in S/N ratio's, damping factor's and power supply module's are effort's to decrease the unwanted noise or distortion that the source itself is the most responsible for creating...
Lets pretend here for a second, that the signal controllers are really not worthy...
Take a look at reviews on something like the Clarion 3-way XO. You will see a lot of people who are convinced beyond a doubt that their sound is better. Idiots? All of them, us?
Never do I mention this sight name in reference. I refer to the opinions from this forum's members as "certain friends".
The other side of this debate consists of acoustic engineer's, SQ judges and individuals who have been around forever.(Like yourselves) They think that the source signal level comes with its own set of issues that need curing...
There is a big difference between a El.XO @ 120Hz, and the supposed setting that the amp is indicating at the same Hz. The filters were obviously added for convenience purposes.... Not as the recommended method to improve sound by excluding the external signal controller.
I have been dragging this through the dirt(to your dismay) since I first found this site!
If you guys mention to me that the setup of signal controllers is not good on the business end of things.   Setup takes too long, or people cant be trusted with the control. Then it will all make sense.
Furthermore-I make a judgement about who is asking, what type of questions. I believe it was Manootu? Who had the question... This dude should take my advice about what to do here. Not everyone has the means or even a remote possibility to obtain and install the type of equipment or practices that are so famously preached.
CLICHe' ----
This is what I do for FUN!
audiocableguy 
Copper - Posts: 630
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 27, 2003
Location: Idaho, United States
Posted: June 05, 2010 at 9:08 PM / IP Logged  
"Whatever noise you believe is being increased, its not as relevant when your talking about a signal that is being changed to accommodate for that increase. The unwanted noise caused by the source to begin with, is decreased when strength(E) to the signal level is applied."
False. A Gain Stage takes what ever the signal is, including noise, and increases it. Hense the word GAIN. Each gain stage, more processors, boost signal + noise in each step. Phase shifts are also issues. What do you expect for $100?
Increases in S/N ratio's, damping factor's and power supply module's are effort's to decrease the unwanted noise or distortion that the source itself is the most responsible for creating..."
Wow, never heard damping factor used in a line level converstion. mmmm Do you even understand damping?
"If you guys mention to me that the setup of signal controllers is not good on the business end of things." They are not good because the true problems aren't being looked at. Again I use the term bandaid.
"Not everyone has the means or even a remote possibility to obtain and install the type of equipment or practices that are so famously preached." Funny because they correct practices save money by not buying all the crap recommend by people who don't know what their talking about. The practices here are proven, basic install practices. Installer 101 stuff.
"This dude should take my advice about what to do here."
False. Your advise did nothing to answer his question in the first place.
audiocableguy 
Copper - Posts: 630
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 27, 2003
Location: Idaho, United States
Posted: June 05, 2010 at 10:53 PM / IP Logged  
"Bottom line: Be careful who you listen to and what you believe (good advice for life too). There are plenty of folks inside and outside the car audio realm that will simply make something up if they don't know the answer (don't want to look stupid). Then there are those that have been told a lie, accepted it as truth, and passed it along. When in doubt, get a second opinion."
caraudiobook.com
Author not credited.
manooti 
Member - Posts: 10
Member spacespace
Joined: May 11, 2010
Location: New York, United States
Posted: August 05, 2010 at 1:25 PM / IP Logged  
sorry for not posting in a while but had financial problems. got the jetta for sale so i took out the system and installed it in my truck.
ive found that the previous installer put an inline fuse of 100 amps at battery then a distro block with 20 amps less than the combined amps on both the sonys im using. the distro had 2x30amps=total of 60amps and both amps used 120amps. dont know if that made a difference but i removed that block and it pounds now. the jetta was a lot smaller and the truck is a lot bigger so i dont know which way the sound would go. but it definitely hits harder.
on another note, im going def and the only way to rememdy this is with more watts :D
soundnsecurity 
Gold - Posts: 2,711
Gold spaceThis member has made a donation to the12volt.com. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: November 10, 2008
Location: Louisiana, United States
Posted: August 05, 2010 at 3:17 PM / IP Logged  
somethings just tend to hit better in a more open vehicle.
on a side note, reading this thread almost made my head explode.
when it comes down to deciding if you need any kind of line driver its important to know what they are really used for. they are not magical devices that just make things louder, they really are intended to be used in situations where your RCA voltage falls below acceptable levels to be used by your amp and there are only two situations that i can think of 1) having a whole bunch of amps sharing the same signal or 2) having your amp a very long distance away from the source. voltage naturally decreases over distance.
in theory, the best system IS just a source, an amp, and speakers. proper installation and quality equipment will make up for all but the smallest imperfections. but, this is the real world, and we need devices like EQ's because no single speaker comes with a perfect response and a car's interior is full of sound absorbing and reflecting material. and i say it all the time, an equalizer is only worth having if you know how to use it like is is meant to be used.
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