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Capacitor Information


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fakepete 
Copper - Posts: 99
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 21, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: October 11, 2006 at 10:49 PM / IP Logged  
I've seen the capacitor questions come up a few times, decided to post some information. The formulas were taken from a textbook, the rest is pretty much my own interpretation of everything. Questions or criticism welcome.
Capacitance
Capacitance is a capacitors ability to store an electric charge. When a capacitor is connected to a DC voltage
source the initial current is very high. Electrons from the negative side of the source pour into the negative plate of the capacitor. As a negative charge accumulates, an equal amount of electrons are repelled from the positive plate through electrostatic induction. The electrons flow out of the positive plate to the voltage source. The electrons flowing in and out of the capacitor give the illusion of current flowing between the plates even though they are not connected. As the charges continue to accumulate a voltage is developed across the plates. The voltage continues to increase until it matches the source voltage, and at this point the capacitor is fully charged and the current stops flowing.
The Farad
The Farad is the standard unit of measure of capacitance. One Farad is the amount of capacitance needed to store one coulomb of electric charge under the influence one volt. For those who may not be familiar with it, the coulomb is a measure of a quantity of electrons and the charge they have. The volt, amp and other units of electrical measure are based on it. One coulomb is 6.25 x 10^18 electrons, so a one Farad capacitor connected to a 12 volt source will store 7.5 x 10^19 electrons, or 12 coulombs of charge(coulomb = voltage x capacitance). This isn't very useful by itself since you can't count electrons, but it is used in the next equation, which solves for energy. Energy is measured in joules or watt-seconds. (one joule = one watt-second). The next equation is Energy = coulomb x voltage/2. Therefore, 12 x 12/2=72 watt-seconds.
72 watt-seconds is all you get out of a one Farad capacitor at 12 volts. The intention of the capacitor on the power wires of an amp is to help maintain the voltage at its highest level. If the voltage begins to drop, the energy stored in the capacitor is used to try and stabilize the voltage. If the drop lasts for one second, only 72 watts of power will come from the capacitor before its completly discharged. The power isn't spread evenly over the second, there's a rush at the beginning and it drops off quickly after that. Now the capacitor needs an additional 72 watt-seconds from the vehicle charging system to recharge, which was already strugling to maintain the voltage. The interesting thing here is that if the time of the voltage drops decreases, the power goes up. If the voltage were to drop for only 0.1 second, then 720 watts would be available over that 0.1 second before it was discharged (72 watts / 0.1 seconds).   This is using 12 volts, if using 14.6 volts, the energy goes up to 106 watt-seconds for a one Farad capacitor. Over the same 0.1 second, you now have 1065 watts available, which I believe is enough to have at least some help in maintaining the voltage.
I still don't think a capacitor necessary since a proper charging/battery system will never experience a significant voltage drop.
None of the calculations here take into effect the many variables such as ESR of the cap, resitance if the wire,
charge and dischage curves, etc. This is only an overview of the whole thing, there are many other factors to
consider, and pages of additional calculations as well, but should be enough information to form your own opinion.
master5 
Silver - Posts: 1,123
Silver spacespace
Joined: October 10, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 5:05 AM / IP Logged  

Interesting stuff, I had to memorize all that and more for the masters but have forgotten most of it since.

On the next to last paragraph it says something about the cap won't do any good with a proper battery/charging system. Honestly,  I don't think they do much good for most typical systems because they are not nessesary, just the stores make profit off selling and installing them and tell the poor sucker that he/she "needs" it.

For an extremely high powered system they can have a benefit. They are used to make up for the voltage drop in the systems power wire during peak current demands like heavy bass. If the charging system and battery are bad or insufficiant nothing will help but fixing that. Thanks for the info.

master5 
Silver - Posts: 1,123
Silver spacespace
Joined: October 10, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 6:23 PM / IP Logged  

Here we go again nouse. We are in complete agreement but just can't seem to understand each other. what do you think causes the voltage to become unstable? Of course if the electrical system in the car can't handle the peak demands of the audio system there will be problems with stability. a cap will NOT make up for this.

Assuming the system is done correctly and the electrical system is up to par the voltage drop in the wire run is what causes this "voltage instabiltity".  Why do you think the cap needs to be installed as close to the amp as possible? Too many people are mislead to belive a cap is some kind of magic cure all that will prevent the dash or headlights from dimming or make a crappy system suddenly sound good. This is not the caps purpose, it is NOT meant to be some kind of band-aid for an insufficent electrical system in a car.

You really do seem like you are experienced and know alot but with some of the more technical aspects it seems to me like you are getting your info from the wrong sources. I will try to explain this like I am talking to a 3 year old.  

No matter how thick the wire when a very high powerd system hits peak current demand there are too many electrons trying to get through the wire at the same time. Kinda like if you tried to shove 3 cars at once into a 2 lane tunnel. The "traffic" would slow down (ie: voltage drop) The cars would also rub together and heat would be a result from friction. Yes this is over simplifing but the electrons do the same thing in theory. thats is why a wire gets hotter has you pull more current through it and the thinner the wire the more "friction" or heat.

If the system alreay has sufficient gauge wire I don't see what good a cap would do in any case, assuming of course the cars electrical/charging system is up to task. damn, why do you make me write so much?  It is not doing good anyway I might be better off just never going on this forum again and just let everyone else wallow in thier ignorance.

aznboi3644 
Gold - Posts: 2,600
Gold spaceThis member consistently provides reliable informationspace
Joined: May 01, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 6:28 PM / IP Logged  
Master...everyone is ignorant lol
There is no need for you to leave...the more knowledgeabe people here the better this place is.
Also I see you have learned how to use the "enter" key and type in paragraphs lol
*Master's progression*
1. AOS EE
2. ASE electrical systems
3. MECP Master
4. LEARNING TO TYPE IN PARAGRAPHS
lol just raggin on ya
jonathancullen 
Silver - Posts: 282
Silver spacespace
Joined: September 22, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 7:56 PM / IP Logged  

caps are a waste of money, dont do hardly anything for the price while you could upgrade your big 3 and have the same outcome. only reason i would buy caps is for the looks. o0o0o0o0o0o0 watch the numbers go up and down! lol

master5 
Silver - Posts: 1,123
Silver spacespace
Joined: October 10, 2006
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 8:51 PM / IP Logged  

Ok aznboi, I'll hang in there a bit longer. I like your sense of humor and don't worry as I am usually not offended by anything on posts. Is it time for another paragraph?

I just don't want to be constantly bantering back and forth to prove points I know are correct. People will choose to listen to whomever they relate with better but this is still no way for someone to get the info needed to do something correctly,  to understand a technical matter, or to decide on a componenet they need. In addition if someone is not capable of listening to someone else with enough openmindedness to get thier point, then the whole thing starts to seem rather pointless.

I wonder if they offer some kind of certification for paragraph forming as I think I am almost ready for my basic exam.

Thanks and have a good one.

fakepete 
Copper - Posts: 99
Copper spacespace
Joined: April 21, 2002
Location: United States
Posted: October 12, 2006 at 10:36 PM / IP Logged  
I agree that caps are a waste. I wanted to show why they don't work in a car audio aplication. I know many of you here are familiar with caps and how they work, but I sure there are some people here who aren't. The charging system should be able to handle the peak current of the equipment and prevent the voltage from ever dropping.
There will always be some voltage drop due to the resistance of the wire. For example a ten foot long hunk of 2/0 has a resistance of about .001 ohms. If there are 200 amps flowing then the voltage drop will be .2 volts. The conductors need to be sized according to voltage drop to keep the drop to a minimum. If you use dual 2/0 at 200 amps, then the voltage drop is only .1 volt.
To me a drop or .2 volts not something worry about during normal listening. In a competition environment ever little bit helps, and I guess that .1 or .2 volts can have an effect on things. 200 amps x .1 volts = 20 watts, so in theory the 72 watt-seconds from a one Farad cap can be put to good use in this scenario to compensate for the voltage drop at 200 amps without completely discharging (as long as the drop is for less than 3 seconds).
The point is that for most people and most applications the typical one Farad cap is useless. It can be used in certain situations, but even then it's overall effect isn't much.

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