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sub freq sweeping


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loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
Copper spacespace
Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 29, 2007 at 12:17 AM / IP Logged  

Ok, i'll make this the shorter version of a perplexing question. I have two 12's in the back of a 95' Chev Monte Carlo. They are on individual amps and are recieving about 550rms each from their respective amps; the amps are set pretty close to the same freq. range at about 50hz. The subs are sealed (individualy chambered), rear firing, and the timing is a little off (slow). Also the polarity on both subs is positive.

In the front of the car, in the passenger floorboard, I have a sealed enclosure with an 8' sub in it. Foreward firing toward the firewall recieving about 250rms, and set at about 120hz. This sub was added to give me lost mid-bass to the front stage in an SQ car. I have to say it is doing it's job perfectly, giving me an impresive fullness and depth at about eye  level, about 3" up the front glass, and appears to come from dead center at about 2ft. deeper than the windshield. There is a gain knob on this front amp, to adjust to taste.

That's the set up. Here's the part I hope can be explained to me. When being judged; I rarely ever run my rear subs. I decided to try them both on at the same time. When I do; it seems that the deeper freq. in the rear seem to sweep past me to the front dash when I increase the gain on the front sub. I'm not complaining because I get the mid-bass and it seems to correct my timing problems with my rear subs. I'm happier with my stage than ever!  There is a sweet spot with that dial though. Can someone explain this phenom. to me? Not shure how I accomplished this...

Thanks in advance!  Dave

David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
ve-audio 
Member - Posts: 3
Member spacespace
Joined: May 29, 2007
Location: South Africa
Posted: May 29, 2007 at 6:27 PM / IP Logged  

Sounds like you have an unussual setup, but I agree your soundstage is key. It appears that the rear subs could be slightly out of phase (compared to front) on the timing.

Considering that lower frequencies (from e.g. a 12") travels slightly differently to frequencies produced by the 8", this might be the source of your problem, besides the distance from your listening position.

If you had the means to messure timing at a fixed listening position, and run tests from individual speakers respectively, this would probably lead you to the right solution. In addition, if you do manage to messure any phase differences you will require some special circuitry or box modifications to correct the issue. (An assumption I'm making is that you don't have any reverse wires, which will cause major head-aches and phase)

Perhaps someone can suggest the best approach to messure timing/phase ?

loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
Copper spacespace
Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 29, 2007 at 10:24 PM / IP Logged  

Thanks. I'm actually in phase all around. I'm not trying to fix the timing. It's fixed. I just want to know why the sweeping is going on or what it is. I'm not having any bass cancelation (a sign of out-of-phase).

Thanks for the advise though.

David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
speakermakers 
Copper - Posts: 231
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 02, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: May 29, 2007 at 11:48 PM / IP Logged  
Often in setups with subs and or midbasses that have overlapping Pass bands you end up having to juggle gain, phase , and equalization settings in an effort to obtain the best results. The sweet spot on the volume control that you describe makes perfect sense. When you tackle an acoustical arrangement like this you have to keep in mind that your brain processes the information that it receives (sounds that you hear) using a short list of prioritized objectives. This prioritized list is as follows.
1.     Frequency response of fundamental sounds. This is the first and most important. You cannot recognize any sound with out some reference to frequency (i.e. a bell dose not sound like a bell without high frequency reproduction)
2.     Frequency response of harmonics of fundamental sounds. This is why your subs in the back make the music sound bigger than life. After you have successfully reproduced the initial sound if you also reproduce the lower harmonic on top of that sound you validate that sound for your brain and make it believable. This is why music over a cell phone dose not sound right.
3.     Phase coherency. The phase angle will change with frequency per speaker in your system. This is ok as long as it happens gradually and it dose not conflict with the phase response from another speaker. An incorrect phase angle or a sharp shift in phase angle with in the response of a single speaker can cause your brain to red flag the signal as being phony.
4.     Group delay. You brain constantly times the incoming signals in an effort to sort one sound from another. When there is a time delay that occurs within a single sound your brain rejects it, because your brain only accepts sounds arriving at the same time (actually with in a small window of time and depending on frequency) as valid.
My guess is that if you are hearing the effects of group delay from your rear subs that the box size is large. A box size that is beyond the sweet spot of a particular sub will cause poor response times. You might want to consider reconfiguring your box taking predicted group delay into account. This can remedy your timing problems entirely. I suggest a higher order enclosure that will give you the low response and good group delay combination that you are looking for. This might be a vented or electronically assisted desighn. The easiest and most obvious approach to your situation though is to use your crossovers to eliminate as much frequency overlap as possible. High pass your front sub (bandpass). You will likely have the best results with higher order asymmetrical crossovers. With an asymmetrical crossover you can create a gap between the high pass frequency of your front sub and the low pass frequency of your rear subs. In a typical car audio system this can be advantageous do to the cabin gain of your car heavily modifying your speakers actual frequency response in spite of your crossover settings.
You will always have a sweet spot with the gain on either sub. Aligning the crossover frequencies and the phase though will increase the size of that sweet spot letting you get the type of sound that you want at will.
The way to obtain smooth phase response and acceptable group delay is to model your subs in a good box program, and weigh your options.
The way to obtain the best crossover frequency settings is to RTA each speaker independently. This way you can see the effects of the crossover in play as well as the cabin gains of your ride. You will be surprised at the results.   
Time delay is also a way of approaching this problem. Though you should be aware that this strong tool in its self but will not likely get you what you are looking for. If I was in your situation I would absolutely use time delay after I optimized everything ells.   
speakermakers 
Copper - Posts: 231
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 02, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 12:00 AM / IP Logged  
If you are getting enough volume at low frequencies and the timing is not an issue for you, optimizing the crossovers and possibly some time delay will get you a larger sweet spot. Keep in mind that a judge at a competition might be looking at extreme details. Speaking from experience. 98 IASCA international finals with two 8” subs up front and two 12” subs in the back.
loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
Copper spacespace
Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 2:02 AM / IP Logged  

Thanks so much for the precise details. This is exactly what I was looking for. My crossover adjustment is probably the best option. You see, I am a SONY S.Q. demo car. Sony hasn't made any time alignment equipment since the earlier days of the "Mobile ES" equipment. Sony has given me by way of "full ride" sponsorship, anything (current product line) I want for the car. If I continue my relationship with them; I must correct timing and phase manually, not electronically by way of processors. They don't make processors anymore.

Thank you for explaining to me what I needed to understand.

PS. My rear enclusures and front enclosure are built to the specs of the subs in them using Bass Box Pro.

David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
haemphyst 
Platinum - Posts: 5,054
Platinum spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Electrical Theory. Click here for more info.spaceThis member has been recognized as an authority in Mobile Audio and Video. Click here for more info.spacespace
Joined: January 19, 2003
Location: Michigan, Bouvet Island
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 11:38 AM / IP Logged  
Sony? SQ? Without processing? Yeah, see, that's not gonna work for me. Processing is PARAMOUNT in a true SQ system. In a good SQ system, there can only be ONE sweet spot, and to produce that, requires procesing.
Also, at the frequencies you are running that 8 incher, you should be running stereo. Just my opinion... ANYTHING above 80Hz, should ALWAYS be stereo. As a directional (i.e. "locatable") frequency, psychoacoustically speaking, a single source for that frequency and above will cause image collapse. It'll narrow your soundstage considerably. If you think you like it now, try running stereo!
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
Copper spacespace
Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:06 PM / IP Logged  

Stereo. Hmmm. Two 8's? Is that what you're saying? I think that the rear wave and the front wave are meeting in the place that i've adjusted. That's just me. I appreciate your advice and respect your knowledge in this field totally! Be assured of that. I just feel that I think that SQ can be adjusted by an ear. What did people do before processors? I am trying to do this by mine; which may be a waste of time!  I don't think SONY deserves the rap they get. I think that a SQ. system can be made by ear; that's all. Pics of my system are on the sonyxplode web site in the "My Ride" section, under David Fancher- 1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. I even widened my stage using tweets in the door pannels at about knee level pointing toward the side windows. A former ISACA judge, now in USACi, thought they did the trick? Wish you could hear it. Sorry if you don't think it's possible.

Dave

David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
speakermakers 
Copper - Posts: 231
Copper spacespace
Joined: January 02, 2003
Location: United States
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM / IP Logged  
You should be aware if not already that there is no such thing as a “correct” enclosure that can be generated from Bass Box Pro. Bass Box Pro has a feature that will suggest a box size for you, but this feature is only to get you started. It works by calculating a box with one of three response curves. None of which take several performance aspects into account. For example, Group delay. Bass Box Pro is nothing more than a very comprehensive calculator. That’s not to say that the box that you have isn’t perfect for your situation. Just know that good box design is a well orchestrated series of compromises that can only be made by an experienced individual with detailed knowledge of your particular car and your particular goals. Both box programs and manufacturer recommendations can only help you make a better decision.
loosingmymind 
Copper - Posts: 103
Copper spacespace
Joined: August 24, 2004
Location: United States
Posted: May 30, 2007 at 10:30 PM / IP Logged  

Thanks Speakermakers. I hope the Box I made is the one I need. I am in regular contact with my Vendor an Rep for Sony (Burke McKay), and he feels like i'm on what I need to be on. I hope he's right. I just want to, I guess, prove that you can make SQ. without anything but a good ear. I may fail, but not without a fight. My ear could allways be wrong. I hope not. I have been in this for 17 yrs. I hope I can still hear. Thanks for being supportive.

Dave

David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
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