Alternate alternator
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Mobile Electronics Questions and Answers
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=60606
Printed Date: May 13, 2024 at 4:35 PM
Topic: Alternate alternator
Posted By: Masta N
Subject: Alternate alternator
Date Posted: August 03, 2005 at 1:23 PM
I have been running an idea around in my head and would like to get some input from others in my field. I wish to add a second alternator to my truck, but do not have the room to add the pulley and such because of the ram air and other add-ons on the accessory belt, as well as the fact that I'm running that belt at 24% underdrive. I do not wish to upgrade the existing alternator(besides the largest I've found is 150 amp) because of the underdrive, coupled with my experience that high output alts act like undrive pulleys at idle as well, compounding my problem.
On to the idea. I have found a device which, by its intended design, is intended to turn a factory water pump to free up horsepower from the accessory belt. My plan is to adapt this mjotor to spinn up an additional alternator. The motor will run off the factory charging system abd draws only 8 amps. With the correct pulleys, the second alternator could produce its full rated output nearly all the time and charge a second battery and runn the audio system, freeing the factory alternator from the burden of the audio system entirely. Another benefit would be that the alternator could be remotely installed, thus freeing up space under the hood.
Of course there must be a flaw in my logic on this idea, so I turn to you for thoughts...as well as constuctive criticism.
Masta N out
Replies:
Posted By: Francious70
Date Posted: August 03, 2005 at 2:27 PM
It couuld work. Try it and let us know.
Paul
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 03, 2005 at 5:14 PM
Won't work.. you're breakin the law..<grin> What you want to do is use about 112 watts to produce around 1400 watts.. do you see the problem here? You want a perpetual motion machine.. it doesn't work that way. If, however, you manage to really make one, you'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams. Jim
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 03, 2005 at 5:39 PM
Not neccessarily perpetual motion(and I considered that part of the equation) because it is not powering itself. It draws power from the main alt. By the way I'm thinking, it is much more like a lever, in that it amplifies the energy(effectivly) from another source...do you follow? It might not work, but I'm not convinced that the perpetual power argument really holds water under these circumstances. Especially if the motor spins just as fast as the accessory belt on the truck, does the alternator know how the spin was imparted?
Posted By: Francious70
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 2:09 PM
I'm telling you, it'll work. Try it. Hmm.. maybe, just maybe. *Twisted grin*
Paul
*Edit* The only problem I think you're going to run into is the motor you have turning the alt will have to run at some seriously high RPM's for a LONG time (however long you have your car running). Most electric motors arn't designed to run continusly at high RPM's for a long time.
That, and the motor would have to have some pretty good torque to turn the alt.
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 2:32 PM
It is designed to turn a water pump...A job which is by far more demanding than turning an alternator...and the run time is the same as well...the entire time the car is running.
Posted By: Francious70
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 2:36 PM
Do you have a link to where I ould check out this product??
Paul
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 3:09 PM
Not a link...but I can tell ya where to look. Go to summitracing.com. In the online store click on cooling. I think it's called an electric water pump motivator...or something like that. It's made by various manufacturers, but the one that is the least expensive is made by Moroso. Sorry I can't post a real link...we only have limited internet access at my work...but I arranged to have this site viewable;). I think Jeg's carries them as well. When I get home I will post an appropriate link for you.
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 5:51 PM
Here's a link for the water pump conversion kit.. It's mentioned that the kit is for drag racing. https://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1102&prmenbr=361 Here's the page on Mr. Gasket's website that has the install guide for the kit.. (kit #4333) https://go.mrgasket.com/InstructionSheetsList.aspx?BrandID=1 Note where it says 'Continuous operation of the water pump motor should be avoided. Running the electric motor for two or three minutes at a time is advised'. Perpetual Motion = getting more out then you're putting in. You want to use 10 amps to operate an electric motor that will belt drive an alternator that you want to output 100+ amps.. Jim
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 04, 2005 at 7:03 PM
Actually, as per the dictonary
Perpetual Motion:The hypothetical continuous operation of an isolated mechanical device or other closed system without a sustaining energy source.
By your line of though a simple lever would be perpetual motion...which we all know is incorrect. One can, with the proper length lever, apply 2 lbs to move 200lbs.
The moroso unit's instuctions do not mention using the unit only intermittently
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/mor-63750.pdf .
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 5:18 AM
https://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=29007 'Intended for drag race applications only' WRT your lever example.. to get 200 lbs to move with 2 lbs of input your distance traveled is what makes it happen.. the 2 lb side will travel much farther than the 200 lb side. In the simplest terms, you want to get more power out then you're putting in.. and that's against the laws of physics. But don't let me stop you.. go ahead and try. Jim
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 7:54 AM
You are absolutly correct about the distance traveled, that is where pulleys come into play. They allow you to get more power out that you put in. Well within the laws of physics...especially when converting the energy from one type(electrical), to another(mechanical), and running through force amplifiers(pulleys). A dc motor drawing power, and an alternator producing power work in different ways...A fact which you may not be considering. An alternator takes a force(pulley), converts it to high voltage, low amperage AC power. Then through a series of transformers, converts that "signal" to high current, low voltage DC power.
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 8:05 PM
Masta N wrote:
You are absolutly correct about the distance traveled, that is where pulleys come into play. They allow you to get more power out that you put in. Well within the laws of physics...especially when converting the energy from one type(electrical), to another(mechanical), and running through force amplifiers(pulleys).
Let's look at this for a minute.. you have two pulleys.. a drive pulley and a driven pulley. The drive pulley has torque of 100 ft lbs, and an RPM of 1000 rpm. If the driven pulley is the same size, it will have 100 ft lbs of torque, and 1000 rpm. If you reduce the diameter of the driven pulley you will increase the RPM of the driven pulley, but decrease the torque. Increase the diameter of the driven pulley and you'll reduce the RPM, but increase the torque. here's a calculator https://www.phionline.com/calcrpm.htm Here someone used a 1hp AC motor to turn an automotive alternator.. look at the size of the electric motor compared to the alternator. https://theepicenter.com/tow052903.html Masta N wrote:
A dc motor drawing power, and an alternator producing power work in different ways...A fact which you may not be considering. An alternator takes a force(pulley), converts it to high voltage, low amperage AC power. Then through a series of transformers, converts that "signal" to high current, low voltage DC power.
I wasn't aware of the transformer stage of alternators.. I had thought that there were diodes in there, but not transformers. Regardless of anything else, you're saying that it shouldn't be a problem to input 140 watts (14vdc @ 10a) into a motor generator device and output over 1400 watts (14vdc @100a).. right? Jim
Posted By: geepherder
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 9:19 PM
Alternators do produce AC which is then rectified to DC, but there is no transformer- per se. It is not converted from high voltage low current AC to low voltage high current DC.
-------------
My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 10:32 PM
So by the same logic, a supercharger is impossible(20 hp to produce well over 100)...regardless, Like I said in the beginning, this is an acedemic argument, which has not been debunked completly by anyone. The fact remains that the force needed to run a water pump is greater than the force needed to run an alternator, and this thing runs water pumps...period. How much force is neccessary to run an alternator?
As for transformers in alternators, I used the wrong term.
As I said this is acedemic, I have found a space to shoehorn my alt and run it conventionaly. Thanks for all the "help"...condescending as it is.
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 06, 2005 at 12:24 PM
You came here looking for help.. remember this line? "Of course there must be a flaw in my logic on this idea, so I turn to you for thoughts...as well as constuctive criticism" Condescending?.. wasn't meant to be, but sometimes the truth hurts I guess. Try to keep an open mind. To continue answering your questions, an alternator requires 1-3hp to operate; depends on the rated output of the alternator... One of the links I provided for you shows a 1hp electric motor connected to an alternator.. that same page also shows a 3.5hp gas engine hooked to an alternator. The electric motor for the water pump is a fractional hp motor.. considering that the current draw is listed at 8 amps, I'd say it's around a 1/10 hp motor or less. Does it flow enough to equal an engine driven water pump?.. nope. Is it designed to be run continuously?.. nope. It's designed for intermittant use on a drag race engine. Also, please note that my 'help' included posting links to the water pump drives, the install instructions, and links to what others have done. I've suggested that you not take my word on it, but to try it yourself. If you build it, I've got all the test gear to measure input/output power.. consider this an invitation; not limited to only you, but anyone interested in trying out a theory. I don't have an SPL meter or I would offer to test whether a cap really makes a difference or not. I don't generally answer audio questions.. it's not my field. Mechanics and electronics?.. I know a little. And I try to learn more each day. Jim
Posted By: Masta N
Date Posted: August 06, 2005 at 5:46 PM
By hammering the perpetual power issue, which the idea was not, you became condecending in my book, perhaps I mistook your position. As for the hp requirements, I know that changing the size(I don't remember which way...I would have to examine my trucks pulleys) of the alternator gains an average of 11-15 hp. The drive doodad for the water pump advertises a 20 hp gain. This leads me to belive an alternator requires less power to turn. I am a mechanic, as well as a audio, security, and cellular tech, So I know a little about these things as well. The issue is now mute, and perhaps absurd, for I no longer need a remote mounted alt to run my system.
On this line of thought, Does anyone here suggest running the two alternators together, or on different curcuits...i.e the factory to run the truck, and the second isolated from the factory system charging the aux batterys? Does it matter? Pros and cons of each?
Posted By: Mad Scientists
Date Posted: August 06, 2005 at 8:37 PM
Masta N wrote:
By hammering the perpetual power issue, which the idea was not, you became condecending in my book, perhaps I mistook your position. As for the hp requirements, I know that changing the size(I don't remember which way...I would have to examine my trucks pulleys) of the alternator gains an average of 11-15 hp. The drive doodad for the water pump advertises a 20 hp gain. This leads me to belive an alternator requires less power to turn. I am a mechanic, as well as a audio, security, and cellular tech, So I know a little about these things as well. The issue is now mute, and perhaps absurd, for I no longer need a remote mounted alt to run my system.
Consider this.. think of all the posts you see here at the12volt about not having an alternator fit their particular car, or how much one for their car is, or that there's no room for it under the hood. What if you had a system that only required 8 amps to operate, was able to use the most inexpensive HO alternator (because the only concern is if the belt fits) and fits in their trunk? No more running big gauge wire from the front to the rear.. Want to listen to your radio with the engine off?.. no problem. Tired with alternator output going down at engine idle? Not a concern anymore. Think of the uses outside car audio.. camping, ham radio, anything that needs 12v. How about a setup wired with an inverter?.. now you have 120vac. How many people here would be interested in such a setup? Masta N wrote:
On this line of thought, Does anyone here suggest running the two alternators together, or on different curcuits...i.e the factory to run the truck, and the second isolated from the factory system charging the aux batterys? Does it matter? Pros and cons of each?
Check to see how Ford wires their dual alternator setups.. perhaps one regulator running both alternators. If everything running from each battery was isolated from each other I don't think there'd be a problem.. but I would be concerned with voltage differences between the two charging systems being applied to something running off both systems. Jim
|