Installers, Why Help Noobs and DIY’ers?

Sorry guys, trying not to sound like an ass... I have to ask.

When people come into my shop and start asking how to wire this and run that, I can be somewhat helpful. But when it comes to anything technical, I usually stop after a bit and tell them that I make money because of knowledge that I have, and if I give it away to everyone, I am out of a job. I don't mind aswering the odd question when I have all the answers and know that i'm right. But I think that there should be a limit of what you should share.

Are you trying to drum up work? Want to impress everyone with your vast knowledge? ...bored?

I don't know about you guys, but I work 12-14 hour days in the winter and don't have much time to sit at the computer answering stupid questions like..."does my 2001 cavalier have passlock?"

This forum is great, don't get me wrong. I have used it successfully on many occasion. But reviews of products, known problems and troubleshooting issues would be alot more helpful to us professionals. Know of any Installer-only forums?

Just my 2 pennies.... Flame away.

ps. and, you guys do know that the wiring info and such that is given away from techsoft and wherever is copyrighted...right? What are the risks?

Justaguy, when you were first started installing did you figure everything out on your own or did someone help you? my guess is someone helped you. did that person HAVE to help you? no. they did it I hope to make you a better installer. when I was starting out I would ask ALOT of questions to installers and even called some car audio manufactures to get questions answered. I know I was a pain but the people helped me out and I thank them for it.

now I'm in a position to help other people out with their questions and I don't think twice about it. I always tell someone upfront that if something is maybe a little too far out for them to do leave it to a professional. it will save them time and money in the long run. but leave the desicion up to them to make.

I'm sure you're not the only person to feel that way, just keep up the good work.

Bill

Justaguy wrote:

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Want to impress everyone with your vast knowledge? ...bored?

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i feel the same outtaluck72, give and you will get 10 fold. i feel it's about being a good person for yourself. i myself cant shoplift what was freely give to me by the countless installers i sponged for info. and yes if the problem is to great or surpasses there knoldge then they will find out the hard way and learn or let a proffessional take care of it. whatever happen's there will be work maybe not as much as we would like but thats biz. and if your one of those installers that paid to go to school that is great and if you feel the need to keep your knoldge go ahead. but i find and like i already said, by me helping someone it helps me better myself in all kind of different ways to many to list.and that is my 2 cents

Good question.  I've always enjoyed figuring this stuff out myself & tinkering.  I've blown it more than once too & had to ask for help.  Have had to pay for it too.

I remember my first experience wiring a relay for door locks, around 1991.  I had parked my car in the field next to my apt building & completely taken it apart to install the sound system & alarm.  After working all nite on the alarm & figuring out I was in way over my head, I pedelled to the closest audio shop to ask how to wire the relay.  The installer told me, "that information is what I get paid for."  It struck me as completely arrogant & ticked me off so much that I never went back there to buy anything.  I only needed 2 minutes of help.

I look back on that and can see his perspective now.  He probably had kids like me in there everyday asking crap like that.  I can't blame him now, but it did cost that shop money at the time.  If he had told me where to look for the answer, like here for instance, I would have been appreciative & wouldn't mind finding my own answers.  And I would have kept buying things there.

Installers are paid for their knowledge, yes, but mostly (IMO) for doing the work & being able to do it better than any avg joe with a crescent wrench.  I think your shop should sell one of those install how-to books.  When people come in with anytthing other than the most basic questions, respect that they want to figure it out themselves & just say  "Here's a $10 guide that will tell you most of what you need to know."  And explain that if they want it done right that you'll be happy to sign them up.  Then you're the good guy any way you look at it.

Justaguy wrote:

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This forum is great, don't get me wrong. I have used it successfully on many occasion.   But reviews of products, known problems and troubleshooting issues would be alot more helpful to us professionals.

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As if this forum owes you something more special than it should provide for DIYers?  My philosophy (as a hobbiest, but I've formed it by reading what many installers and shop owners have written here) is that you give back more than what you've taken.  I've learned a lot through this forum and am willing to help others learn as others have helped me.

My sig line tells that story.

I think it is interesting that this came up.  I know that in this business we are providing luxary items in a sense.  Not providing necessity items means we are hurt by fluctuations in the economy and currently gas prices.  I have to believe that sharing your knowledge is what advances our business and increases sales.  I am probably repeating a lot of what was said above but I strongly agree with it.  I am young, and as soon as I got my first vehicle along with it came the passion for car audio.  It has made me decide to be in the business and further my education so I can be in the industry. 

I feel very strongly about sharing my knowledge with others.  I enjoy helping others out, hope to ignite the same passion in another, and I have found that business benefits from patting someone else's back and they tend do the same in return for you.  Also, if you show that you know about the equipment and installation procedures thay are much more likely to come to you for business. 

When I have slow business days and am feeling discouraged, I just simply have to drive to class.  As I notice how horible traffic is, I also realize just how much potential work is out there.  It also helps me appreciate the traffic and relax a little more.

Personally, I feel I owe a lot to the experts on this site for helping me when I get in tight spots.  I can't very well offer them much help or bake them cookies(no requests please), so I feel I do it by passing the knowledge on.  Continuing to inspire people to have interest in car audio and accessories can only help progree the industry.

I am sorry if this has a little ADD to the order of it or content (I am multi-tasking).  I feel strongly that this website is 99.9% good.  Here have my soap box.

boulderguy wrote:

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I answer just to show people that I'm right.  I'm always right.

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forbidden wrote:

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It pays to be right!

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furflier wrote:

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Except when you are wrong and just think you are right. This is something taht has happened to all of us at least once!

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Not me.  Mmmm, nope.

you were all once......noobs. all were wrong at one time your little lives......

If were are not to help, whats the point of www.the12volt.cm  The part that pisses me off to  no end, is all the DEI, doit yourself installers wanting help!

They got the stuff from some parts whore....that broke all the rules selling the stuff in the first place.......AND don't get me goin on FLEBAY

Boy, look what I started...he he.

Right off the bat, I apoligize for not being clearer...By noobs I meant people are not in the business, not  new installers. I have no problem helping green guys, I do it all day at work.

It's late, and i'm tired from working a long day, so I might make sence, but I'll try.

So, some people believe it's Ok to give out info to everyone...

Even if they are the kind of people who are too cheap to pay for an installer to do the job and too lazy how to learn to do it themselves but don't mind bothering someone on the phone or forum to get help when they can't figure it out when they weren't smart enough to attempt it in the first place?

As long as they buy from an authorized dealer?

As long as they refer you more business?

As long as they don't ask stupid questions?

Where do you draw the line?

As far as helping customers... I go way overboard helping people that come to my shop. Just because I don't like telling people how to do things themselves, doesn't mean I'm not all about the customer service. I'm the king of customer service. I'm also the guy buddies from other shops call for advice cuz I don't mind helping out fellow techs.

Your taking something I say way to literal, of course I'll always have a job. Thats just my way of telling someone that I don't want to help them.

Do some of you really think you'll make this world a better place by letting Joe Blow know which wire is what in his neon? Do you think he'll pass that info on to others in his local 'neon club'? When 'Joe' hooks up his amp power wire without a fuse and almost burns his car down will we realize that maybe he shouldn't have been working on wiring in the first place?

IMO, anyone who has to ask how to do something simple, didn't do any research, and probably doesn't know how to do the job properly and shouldn't be doing it at all. If you want to learn how to do something, then read, you will find you answers.

I've seen way to many hacked installs and it causes nothing but grief. Nothing pisses me off more than someone who thinks my job is easy and think they can do it themselves. When someone books a job in after I quote a price and then they say 'I tried to do it myself', I have no problem telling a customer that the price just went up and it'll cost them more and it's too bad that they didn't bring it here in the first place.

Can some DIYer's do a proper job, sure. Is a guy that asks for the wiring to bypass his clutch switch on his 92 Sunfire one of them? Probably not. The only info that you should give someone like that is the directions to the nearest install bay.

But thats just my opinion.

Justaguy wrote:

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  As long as they don't ask stupid questions?

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I agree with your feelings here justaguy, but the joe blow that is looking for a simple answer in here is usually pretty few.  The response he recieves is almost always to use the search function which would mean he would have to do some reading.  I know it is a pain in the ass to answer questions that undermind logic, but lets face most guys don't use too much logic.  I don't know of a single case when someone has not brought it to their attention that it is stupid or unsafe

I agree that it sucks to have to work on a job that the person with no knowledge thought they would give a try and you wind up doing more fixing than installing.  But lets face it that is always going to be a part of our job.  The last shop I worked at had rates for installing equipment that was bought form us and higher rates for a c**tomers own stuff.  They bought it, took it home and gave it try themselves, and it has become their equipment.  It seemed to make them want us to install it right away rather than to give it a try themselves.

I think this forum is great, and an excellent source of knowledge.  I think the regulars have best interests in mind including business and safety.  As long as it stays this way I don't see where any harm will be done.

speedwayaudio1 wrote:

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Justaguy wrote:

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  As long as they don't ask stupid questions?

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  The only stupid question is the one they don't ask.

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speedwayaudio1 wrote:

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Justaguy, The main reason we help newbs and diy'ers is that we love car audio.

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I think this sums it up pretty well - this is a reason to hang out & talk car audio with people that are listening (unlike my girlfriend).

Justaguy wrote:

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IMO, anyone who has to ask how to do something simple, didn't do any research, and probably doesn't know how to do the job properly and shouldn't be doing it at all.

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And I think you'll notice that most of these questions get brushed off entirely.  If someone doesn't understand the basics well enough to read the install manual & follow its instructions they usually get told that they're in over their head & to find a shop.

What's more comman are questions like, "I'm installing a new HU, is it OK to use the factory B+ or should I run a larger wire?"  that's a legitimate question from someone who's thinking but just doesn't know the best answer.  I think we're all happy to help that guy, even you.

The other comman type question is "should I use this amp or that one?" or "which sub sounds better for this application?"  Both are questions that require an informed, experienced answer, one you can only get by asking others - there's no manual for that.  I can't think of a better reason for the existance of a web forum in that respect.  And it gives us a chance to hear other's opinions about gear. 

And ultimately, my opinion is always the right one, I just wish more people would realize it...

Justaguy wrote:

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As far as helping customers... I go way overboard helping people that come to my shop. Just because I don't like telling people how to do things themselves, doesn't mean I'm not all about the customer service. I'm the king of customer service. I'm also the guy buddies from other shops call for advice cuz I don't mind helping out fellow techs.

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My take on this subject is that on forums such as these, I help where ever I can and try to help someone with " real world " advice and technical knowledge. I don't believe that I'm loosing business from my posting information to help a fellow installer, newbie or DIY'er. Justaguy, if your working 10-14 hour days and your still able to help other's with installatins and tech support, then your doing your job GREAT !! You obviously have a successful business where your occupied with customer's and at the same time your helping your customer's build a relation with you.

Your going to be the guy that customer's say " .......... hey go to this guy cause he know's his stuff and also he'll help you when your in a bind". This is what all independant businesses need to focus on in light of the Big Box Store's (  BBS )moving in. Personable and thankless is what I call the key to success in the new world of doing business. I still give up hours of my time in the evenings & weekends to help out member's on this forum because it provides me with knowledge and also gives me personal satisfaction that I did something to help another person NOT go to a BBS to get it installed. While on the home front at my shop I do give out advice to installer's and in the end most of them bring in their friends and I sell them stuff and I give them advice on hook ups, enclsoure sizes and how to build. I don't look at it loosing business rather investing my time and energy into what I have always believed in to be the best form of advertising for a small business............ word of mouth.

And even you guys who don't want to give advice, you're passing by the best posts!

Here's a guy trying to find a reputable, qualified shop in the NY area to do an in-depth install, and ZERO pertinant replies!

https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=64722&PN=1

just as an aside.... i encourage customers to DIY... i tell them quickly the pertinent info they need, sell them the dash kit, interface harness and antenna adapter and send them on their way..... as we know the bulk of profit on audio in the bay is on the accessories..... so if you make that sale still anyway you are already ahead and also are helping to save your customer money on labour......

i have many customers who have come to me simply with a problem or to buy a fuse holder etc who have now over the years bought thousands of dollars worth of install accessories, data modules, etc and still enjoy the satisfaction of doing something successfully with their own two hands......

of course it's up to you to differentiate between the guy who is just humping your leg for the tenth time and the guy who will actually appreciate what you tell him and potentially buy the recommended accessories from you instead of BB, etc.......

Interesting conversion guys, thanks for your replies

Some of people have brought up some good points, and some that I don't agree with. In my opening post, I asked the question, 'is there a limit to info you should share?', not, 'Don't help people because they are dumb'. Everyone has their own opinions about gear and setups. I like voicing my thoughs as much as the next guy and like hearing what everyone has to say. Well, not everyone...'My dad has that starter and i works real good', is not one of them.

For example, a guy came in to my shop yesterday wanting his deck wired, sure np. He tried to do it himself, cut the factory wiring, ok np. The koss deck he brought is the cheapo style that has the plug for the deck in-line and he cut it off, ok np. During wiring it up, my installer tells me that there is no speakers in the car, feeling bad for the guy, I apologetically tell him, but he doesn't want to stick any more money into his winter beater(or can't afford it), np. My saleman sells him some old speakers of the getto table, and he is going to do it himself and I tell him how. Today he comes back,'I have no sound', ok np. I go outside pull the deck out, double check the wiring, everything looks ok, I asked him if he's sure the speaker wires aren't shorted to ground anywhere and he says he's sure, ok. You deck is screwed I tell him and away he goes. Then he comes back again with a new deck, cut out the deck wiring(cuz he can't unplug the deck because he cut the deck harness off), and can't get it working. I have the car pulled in, have the deck bench tested, no rear output. He just wants rears anyway, so I have my installer re-install the deck to the front outputs and I test the speakers. Found a wire grounded out so I check the speakers and the customer broke of a terminal on the speaker and it was touching metal. Fix that, have the deck re-installed and send him on his way. So, a simple deck install turned into four times the amount of work. Did I charge him more? No. Should I have? Maybe. Will he learn a lesson? Probably not. Did it cost the shop extra? Yep, I still have to pay the techs. Will I see him again? Maybe. Is this an everyday thing? No, but it happens often enough.

Someone said they love fixing customers screw-ups? Can you please PM your shop address so I can give people directions? You can have them all.(I'm not serious,btw).

I should hope anyone who encourages customers to do they're own installs is just talking about decks and simple stuff like that. My shop makes money on labour, and any counter person at my store talking customers into doing stuff himself is going to be looking for a new job. I would never do that to one of my installers, they have kids to feed. Most of my customer come to see me because they need the work done by me. If someone wants to do it themselves and save a buck, then they will go to a BBS where then can buy the gear cheaper anyway. I can't compete with they're prices and I have no problem with a person getting the best deal they can. I've told customers  many times,'If you canget it that cheap, do it'. But even the bbs's send people to me when they can't(or won't) help, and I have had customers tell me before that they wished they'd gone to me first instead of saving a buck.

I never said anything about not helping people who can't afford an install. Almost anyone can do something themselves if they do the research and read. We can tell by the questions asked wether someone has done there homework and is in real trouble or they are to lazy to search for the answer. I might use more discretion in helping people then the next guy, but I feel maybe we can find what we're looking for when we need help with an answer of our own without so much clutter.

But thats just my opinion, everyone is intitled to one. If you want to help everyone or no one, that is up to you.