Print Page | Close Window

Tired of hearing about big box stores

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Mobile Electronics Questions and Answers
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=72446
Printed Date: July 03, 2022 at 3:39 PM


Topic: Tired of hearing about big box stores

Posted By: Fastlearner
Subject: Tired of hearing about big box stores
Date Posted: February 08, 2006 at 3:53 PM

Why does everyone think so evil of these places. I work at best buy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. We do just as much work as the next shop if not more because of the traffic we get. I understand that some stores do crappy jobs but the most of them do excellent. Can we please just drop the whole big box stores do crappy work thing. Why can't we just get along. I'm not ripping on customs shops either. I think it's all the same industry that we are trying to improve so why can't we all just help futher car audio together.



Replies:

Posted By: tragik
Date Posted: February 09, 2006 at 3:35 AM
In my experience most big box stores do crappy work. If there is an exception, its because they lucked out and got a decent installer. I cant think of any good installers I have dealt with at box stores that weren't trained at a specialty shop first. I worked at Ultimate electronics for a while. they had no standards for hiring, and as a result, produced crappy installs. Most of the insallers I know have a similar story to tell.

-------------
Northstart.....or start it your damn self.




Posted By: outtaluck72
Date Posted: February 09, 2006 at 8:23 AM

I used to work for Circuit City for 11 years in the Roadshop. it comes down to the quality of the people working there and their training. Yes we would hire "green" installers looking for a chance. some turned out great and some were worthless. in small shops you don't have the time or manpower to train "green" installers so that they can work without supervision.

each place servers a purpose and it it all comes down to taking care of the customer.





Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: February 09, 2006 at 2:21 PM
I uninstalled a system that cc installed. what a hack job. they twisted wires together then taped them. speakers mounted with only 2 screws? wires looked like spaggetti. I unistalled a system that a local shop did too. It was also a hack job. The remote wire for the amp was hooked up to the power windows fuse in the fuse panel. why they didn't use the remote from the clairion head unit I have no clue. So I guess you can get a crappy install anywhere.

-------------
Big Dave




Posted By: jlord16
Date Posted: February 09, 2006 at 8:40 PM
You know what they say, you dont wanna be served by a person on their first or last day of work.  Its the motivation and work ethics of the installers themselves.  Some people will do a shhhty job others will out do themselves because they beleive in what they r doing

-------------
Clarion DB36MP
Infinity Kappa Perfect 10"
Respone 800w Mono
ALPINE MRP-F250
*Custom fabrications*




Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: February 12, 2006 at 4:15 PM
I work at big box and I agree with whats above. I have seen complete shhh outta Big Box stores and work just as bad outta independants. There are pluses and minuses to both. Most independants pay per job so if you get a guy who is driven solely by money they are probally gonna rush the job just to kick it out the door and move on, esspecially if its busy. At the big box side, obviously it comes down to inexperience. Alot of big box stores have inexperienced installers and it can show. I've been in the industry for 6 years and the last 4 were spent as an installer. Right now I am one of the most experienced big box installers in Edmonton. At 4 years I wouldnt expect that.

-------------
double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 13, 2006 at 2:09 PM
Well, the local big box just stole one of my installers. The local big box (FS) has been without an installer for some time now. I think that it is a good thing for me to lose this installer to them. As good as he could have been here if he had decided to stick around, he still lacks the confidence and abilities that will be placed on his shoulders and expected of him at the big box.  It is pretty sad in this industry that a store will hire someone just for the sake of hiring somneone so as not to lose business. It is really sad that a bog box must shop for a installer from the smaller custom shops that really and truly train the people in this industry. While he may have claimed his loyalty etc. for the last year he was here, loyalty means to do your job in the best interest of your employer, not to question him, not to argue with him. Sadly, this installer was not loyal like this. It is not in my best interest to keep him here and if things do not work out for him, there is no place for him to return to. He made his bed, now he can sleep in it. Once he has had his does of corporate policy, it will sure open his eyes in a hurry. PS, you FS installers, if you are interested, FS even offered to buy him tools as he had none of his own. To me that screams that what they can do for one installer, they can do for another. All in all, I know that my shop is going to become busier this year, especially if last month was any indication.

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 1:06 PM
No offence Forbiddien, but they must have offered a better compensation package then you or he would have stayed. You can't pay rent or buy food with loyalty or freindship. He more than likely went to them looking for something better. We are always looking for something better. That's why your shop is for sale is it not? Had you sold your shop wile he still worked there, where was your loyalty to him, and your other employess? Maybe he decided to get out before you sold to some one he would not like working for. What I'm saying is that there are lots of reasons for a employee to find other work.

-------------
Big Dave




Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 1:40 PM
Burned!!!!!!!!!




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 2:07 PM

Nope, no burn at all. The burn will start when this person starts working there and finds out that he cannot argue with his employer. Hell just this morning I was faced with a issue with this person. I am truly better off without him and with him working for the competition, things will be far better here. As far as pay goes, if the largest big box in Canada can pay more money and benefits, how exactly is that a burn? I knew this all along. But to hire someone and give him false promises, well his eyes will be opened soon enough. The local FS has not had a installer for so long that they are desperate. Desperation leads to hiring anyone, like this person who has not even close to the right amount of training to be "the man" in their install bay.

BTW, they came to him and to the other competitor as well. Would you leave for a .50 cent an hour increase in wages? Do you think that if I felt he was worth the increase in wage I would have given it to him to keep him here. No thanks, I'll keep my primary installer here who is being paid way more than they are paying him. This installer seems quite happy and is able to live within his paycheque, unlike the one that is leaving.

My shop is not for sale as I am looking for something better, it is for sale as I want a change. I want to be free from owning my business, free to take vacations etc. I am 98% of the way into law enforcement (RCMP) at this time. I will consider other options if it does not pan out and for a person of my age and experience, there are more than a long list of businesses that would hire me on the spot. As far as if the new employer keeps the staff on, well it not proper for me to guess at what may or may not happen. It would no longer be my business to run.

I wish this installer who is leaving all the best, he is about to enter the world of corporate BS. If he cannot put up with meinstructing him how to do his job properly, imagine how his new boss is going to deal with him when he does not know how to do the job at all and then chooses to argue about it.



-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 2:11 PM
In my opinion, this is a prime example of what this thread was all about, how a big box can get a bad name for a poor job done. It all starts with the people they hire. Perhaps there are some big box stores that do great work, the local one has lost money since it first opened, I wonder why that is?

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: Autosoundg
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 2:53 PM
I have been doing this for 15 years and the BB jobs i usually see are hack jobs. I am sure there are good installers here and there but typically here in NJand we see a lot of poor installations and that makes not only this industry look bad but even the custom places like ourselves.




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 2:56 PM
There are very few old dogs left in this industry (soon to be one less for that matter). In this case my installer who is leaving is not ready for the job that lay in front of him. I do not see how this can be good for this industry nor any retailer. Would you if you owned a business, keep an employee there who was not capable of doing his/her job.

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: gus1
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 5:19 PM
Exactly.

Here is another nice example. We ended up with a former chain bay manager working for me (now he doesn't). I really couldn't fathom why an install lead would have so little experience/skill. His replacement is also one of my former employees, little experience, but wanted the greener grass on the other side of the fence.

There is a total of 3 years cumulative experience with minimal training behind it at the local box store, between 2 installers. I can't see how some of the jobs they do would be anything other than a mess..... they just don't have the training and guidance to know how to make a starter go in there neatly.

I'll sit over here with my close to 15 years of experience.....

Gus


-------------
Wherever I go, that is where I end up......




Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: February 14, 2006 at 10:05 PM

Rob you are selling for something better. A change is better, vacations are better, not running your own biz is better. I'm not trying to bust your boys. I am just saying people have reasons to move on. You do and he does.posted_image oh yeah I forgot I'm not trying to burn anyone just giving my opinion.



-------------
Big Dave




Posted By: SoundAudio
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 10:10 AM
About the old dogs leaving the business., the local head shop installer and genius in my opinion, recently switched jobs.  He was tired if the unstable work and working with idiots.  Its too bad because he is one of the top installers in the state.  I'm just not sure you can work for a life time in this job and not want a change at some point.  As for big box stores, it is hard to compete with free installation but what I remind them is you can't get anything for free and the installation usually reflects that.  It also helps that the one near me can't schedule you a definite time, they say to drop it off for 3 days and they will get to it in that time period.  That may not be an installer problem as much as a management problem.  The quality of work is a direct reflection of the installer.  I stand behind my work, take pride in it, and if something is wrong, you can bet I'll do whatever it takes to get it right.

-------------
Good Luck!
-Thad




Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 1:37 PM
Like I said before you can get a hack job anywhere. the trick to getting and keeping good installers, or employees for any biz is to pay them decent. Provide decent benifits, and a good place to work. Treat them the way you wan't to be treated. Thats what the big box does. They have the funds to do so even if they lose money in that dept. Car audio in a big box is so you come inside and look around at the tv's, dvd players, dvd's, cd's, frigs, stoves, and a million other things they sell. thats why they install for free so you'll walk around the store. You might not buy anything else that day, but they know you'll be back. big box is here to stay like it or not. that's cause they give the sheeple what they want. Everthing under one roof. Is it the end of Mom and Pop I don't think so. There are still plenty of people that seek out that stile of biz. Just one man's opinion

-------------
Big Dave




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 1:49 PM

Here is another opinion, when you have to argue with a employee on a daily basis, is it an employee issue or a owner issue. This is simple, it is not a discussion, you do what your employer tells you. When you shift blame to others or are "sick" 5 days a month, this is not a employer issue at all. Some people look for easy street, my store is not about easy street. It is about doing the job properly the first time with a level of integrity far above the other shops.

In an act of sheer desperation they made an offer to this kid. How many installers do you people employ that do not own their own tools? FS is buying him tools to get him there as well, if he stays for a year (which I now know they do not expect him to), the tools are "his to keep" (right, after working for a big box, get it in writing). Now, not knowing how the benefits package work there, they also told him that he could have his girlfriends teeth fixed at no charge and in specific they would pay for the braces. Braces are cosmetic work, I don't know of one company in the industry that covers cosmetic work. What else, oh, we'll call you a manager (of a 1 person bay). So let's see how green the grass is on the other side or how gullible this person truly is, time will tell. At the end of the day this can be looked at two ways. As an employer if the work outweighs the BS, you pay him and keep him employed. For him if the new work outweighs the BS, it is a good deal for him. Personally, as a past employee of a big box, I know that the BS outweighs the work done. This is why most of the old dogs in the industry own their own shops.



-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 1:52 PM
I stand firm that even if I end up staying in business for whatever reason (the RCMP could bump me for any reason that I am unaware of), I know that my shop will be better off without this person. I know that my business is going to improve with this person installing for the big box. Sadly again, I also know that this installer is going to become one of the statistics in the industry that this thread is all about.

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: sk8ingsmurf
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 2:18 PM

Well Im going to stay away from Rob and Speedway's discussion in this one and just respond to the author about the big box stores and why we rag on them.

Yes there are plenty of great installers at BB, CC, and FS, Im sure there are hundreds of them, but that is out of thousands of employees.  I worked at BB for a while last year, would have preferred my local custom shop, but they werent hiring and honestly couldnt afford to take a risk on me.  BB offered me good pay (for a 17 year old kid it was honestly just great), an opportunity to do what I love, and a great way to get into the business.  Now I was a salesman in the car-fi department, not an installer, but the installers back the whole car-fi department got to be like one big family.  Our two main installers had gotten in the business at Best Buy and were still working there 7 years later.  These guys have no custom work on their application, but I cant think of a thing on my car I wouldnt feel comfortable with them doing if I needed a hand.  Thats because with these two it was about the hobby for them years back, just like it is for me right now, they took the time to learn how to do things right, even if the company didnt spoon feed it to them.  There are guys like this all over the place, just because you work for a company doesnt mean that the quality of your work is on par with the quality of the company.

However, we crack jokes at the big boxes' expense because not everybody is like this.  If you go to a custom shop and have work done, MOST of the time (and I stress the most), you know that if you wanted to go quiz the installers on some pretty advanced stuff, they will know it.  Best Buy, and to my knowledge all of the big boxes, do not really train people.  Ive seen what training is like there, and it basically consists of watch this video, now watch this installer, now get out there and bust out some overhead screen installs and remote starts.  They dont take the time to really have them look over another installers back for a week or two and see how things should be done.  At BB within a week of working as an installer, even if you have no experience, you can expect to be out in that bay by yourself, with nobody to ask questions to if you get a little bit lost.  They also dont take time to really pick out good installers, Rob was right about how they get desperate and take anybody.  There are only so many enthusiasts in this business, I know for a store like BB Im a steal, I require no training, and really have full product and installation knowledge (within what best buy does, Im not saying I know everything).  Custom shops only look for these guys, because they cant afford to have a bad reputation for bad installs, and take pride in what they do.  Big boxes are left just taking anybody that they feel will be able to grasp the concept of splicing a harness onto the back of a deck and popping it into the car.  I know at my girlfriend's store they were taking a random guy from LP (Loss Prevention) and he was about to start in the install bay, this guy had no prior experience in car audio, no idea what he was doing at all, but the install bay pays better than most other positions at these stores so he wanted the job.  I had a hard time getting into a custom shop where I live, after reading this forum daily, and installing things on the side for the past 4 years, where this guy just goes in and gets a full time install job at a big box, I cant begin to imagine a custom shop that would hire a guy like this, just because they pay well.

So in short, sure there are some great installers at the big boxes, the pay, benefits, and job security are very enticing to some amazing installers.  But in general the big boxes dont really take the time or steps necessary to really make sure that the work pushed out of their bays is top notch like smaller shops do.  Hope this clarifies.





Posted By: tragik
Date Posted: February 15, 2006 at 9:41 PM
The Problem with the Big boxes goes way beyond thier installers. As a shop owner, I see thier business practices as much more damaging to the industry. For example. I used to be a pioneer dealer. That was until Best Buy started selling the same pioneer products that I carried for just a few more dollars than I could get them for at cost. This was INSTALLED!!  Then they raised the prices slightly which was good, but they started including a free set of speakers. The Independent retailer cannot compete with the big boxes on price for a couple of reasons, but the biggest is that alot of Big boxes, BB in particular, will take a loss on mobile electronics so that while you are waitng in the store for an installer to F@#% up your car, you are walking around and buying thier Big Screens and other high ticket items. The bottom line is this, in order for an indie shop to succed, you have to beat the big guys with good service and quality installs. You certainly cannot do it with price. Thats where a good sales staff comes in handy. Another thing we do to keep customers from going to big box stores is take pictures. Keep a camera in the shop and take a picture of every crappy install done at a BB, or CC, or whatever, and when a customer askes why they should go to you when BB is so much cheaper, whip out the photo albumn and show them.

-------------
Northstart.....or start it your damn self.




Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 12:11 AM
forbidden wrote:

Here is another opinion, when you have to argue with a employee on a daily basis, is it an employee issue or a owner issue. This is simple, it is not a discussion, you do what your employer tells you. When you shift blame to others or are "sick" 5 days a month, this is not a employer issue at all. Some people look for easy street, my store is not about easy street. It is about doing the job properly the first time with a level of integrity far above the other shops.

In an act of sheer desperation they made an offer to this kid. How many installers do you people employ that do not own their own tools? FS is buying him tools to get him there as well, if he stays for a year (which I now know they do not expect him to), the tools are "his to keep" (right, after working for a big box, get it in writing). Now, not knowing how the benefits package work there, they also told him that he could have his girlfriends teeth fixed at no charge and in specific they would pay for the braces. Braces are cosmetic work, I don't know of one company in the industry that covers cosmetic work. What else, oh, we'll call you a manager (of a 1 person bay). So let's see how green the grass is on the other side or how gullible this person truly is, time will tell. At the end of the day this can be looked at two ways. As an employer if the work outweighs the BS, you pay him and keep him employed. For him if the new work outweighs the BS, it is a good deal for him. Personally, as a past employee of a big box, I know that the BS outweighs the work done. This is why most of the old dogs in the industry own their own shops.


I have just one more thing. If he was such a crappy employee, why do you seem so mad about him leaving your shop? Like I said before not trying to bust your boys. I'm just enjoying this topic. Rob I wish you good luck on the RCMP job.  that's gotta be a cool job. no pun intended. And if you do stay in the bizz, with your passion your customers are very lucky.

-------------
Big Dave




Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 3:10 AM
Ok, to the guys who said that big box stores have car audio is so that  the customers that are getting shhh installed will go in the store and look around and buy big screens is one of the funniest things I've read on this forum to date. Now the real reason that big box stores carry car audio is because of the margin on it. I know that the district in which my store is in made about a million in car audio products. You have to think, all that a big box store needs to do is sell one wire harness or mounting kit to pay for the labor of the employees an hour. When we sell like 6 or 8 an hour that's a lot of money pure profit. So next time you want to discuss why big box stores do something, why don't you do some research before you talk to the people who work there.




Posted By: sk8ingsmurf
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 12:49 PM
I do have to agree with fastlearner, I keep thinking it the whole time that you guys were discussing the loss of money on the car stereo departments. The BB employee discount was always interesting to use to see how much customers were getting ripped off. Now I know the discount wasnt always very accurate (it is pretty sad when a company even rips their employees off with their own discount), but for the most part it was one of the best perks of the job. Now I know that that is still horrible news for local competitors, being that the volume they buy products in allows them to purchase them for signifanctly less that you, but at least it doesnt feel as insulting as thinking that a large company like that considers those items that you work so hard to sell so unimportant as to take a loss on them to increase other sales.



.............This post has been edited by Velocity Motors

-------------




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 2:31 PM
First off, the general public has no right to know what any dealer pays for something. If you work for a stereo dealer of any type, you are not acting in the best interest of the employer. This means the confidentiality agreement that you signed when you first hired on has been broken and you can be held legally accountable for your actions. Keep this in mind the next time that you speak about the industry please.

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: tragik
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 5:41 PM

[QUOTE=Fastlearner]Ok, to the guys who said that big box stores have car audio is so that  the customers that are getting shhh installed will go in the store and look around and buy big screens is one of the funniest things I've read on this forum to date.

You are misunderstanding me. BB doesn't have to turn a huge proffit on mobile electronics. According to the research I did as an employee of a big box a few years back was that the store I worked for only turned a 0.63 % proffit on Mobile gear, after insurance, labor, product cost, taxes and everything else was concerned. And of the total sales for the year, ony 8% percent was from Mobile.  I said, and was correct in saying so, that the big boxes can afford to take a loss to get people in the door. I suggest you do some research and find out what percentage of sales mobile electronics accounted for in your store before you bash someone who has done the research, and owns a shop, and knows the hidden costs of running a mobile e shop that installers and sales people never see.BTW, the margins on Home theater are much bigger than those on mobile, and the installs, except in special situations or when doing cusom home installs, are generally less labor intensive and hold less liability just due to the plug and play nature of most home theatre products.  I am personal friends with one of the managers of my local BB, he tells me that they have such good deals is so that they can get a 16 yr old kid into a system for cheap, and then try to keep them coming back to them for all of his electronics needs (mobile, home, computer etc..) for life. Research that.



-------------
Northstart.....or start it your damn self.




Posted By: sk8ingsmurf
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 10:17 PM
Rob, I hope I didnt anger you in any way by posting certain costs.  I am aware that what I posted was a breach of the confidentiality agreement that I signed when I started with that company, even if I am no longer employed.  The only reason that I felt comfortable posting this information was the fact that you can find entire lists of the employee discount pricing online, as well as trading systems to allow non employees to make purchases on the employee discount.  I in no way condone the trading systems and understand that posting those prices was sharing confidential information, and apologize for doing so.  Once again I hope I didnt offend anybody by posting such things on this forum.




Posted By: cirrusly_fast
Date Posted: February 16, 2006 at 11:46 PM
so here's a quick question for you indie shop owners. Would you ever turn down a person looking for a job who said he has worked for a big box company?

also who is FS?

I'm not asking as part of this thread. If you have read the foot in the door thread, you know I'm just interested in getting into the industry.

-------------
Cuz I'm Kewl Like That.
System: 1-12" Orion H2, Crossfire VR2000D,Odyssey C2150 battery




Posted By: dstang24
Date Posted: February 17, 2006 at 12:27 AM

What do y'all think about Ultimate Electronics' ProShop install locations?  Full custom work...

Any thoughts?

I believe it's a cross between the big box store environment and the Custom quality. 



-------------
Team Edge Audio




Posted By: tragik
Date Posted: February 17, 2006 at 1:48 PM

I wouldn't refuse to hire a former big box employee. In fact, the most valuable lessons I recieved in installation were the ones I recieved as a big box employee. Only after I had seen the level of quality lacking in big box stores did I truly apreciate the value of doing things correctly.

As far as Ultimate electronics is concerned, They are no better than any other big box. I worked at an Ultimate Electronics in Phoenix AZ briefly, and thier training and installation practices are no better than Best Buys. They do offer custom work, but what difference does it make if it is all held together with t-taps and butt connectors. Thier training is a joke too. At least when I did it. It was a 3 week training course, which consisted of 10 days learning Ultimates corporate practices and sales techniques, and five days of Install training. Of the five days of install training, 3 were for home theatre and two were car related. I did get MECP certified in that thime tho, but in my opinion MECP is a joke too. Any certification you can get without ever having been under a dash is useless.



-------------
Northstart.....or start it your damn self.




Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: February 20, 2006 at 12:01 AM
Ok tragik, you have missunderstood what i said. I never claimed that our department makes the most money out of any other department. But we are the highest margin department. That is a fact and is why they have us. We are able to sell stuff for so cheap because of the bulk that we buy it in. So I think that you need to go back and do some more research. Also if best buy didn't care about our department making money, why would they choose to spend thousands upon thousands to sponser the dub shows this year. Because they know the pure profit that is in the mobile department.




Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: February 20, 2006 at 10:44 PM
OK, first things first, FS is Futureshop which is Basicly a Canadian Big Box store that was bought out buy Best Buy 5 years ago. They have 118 stores. Now Tragik, I go through our PNL repots every month, its part of my job. I dont know where you got your info from, but it sure isnt inline with our chain. Not even Kinda. Car Install contributes massive profit to the company bottom line ever quarter (numbers I WILL NOT RELEASE) and car install is driven by car audio and security product sales. I can tell you to that just because the Big Box stores sell products only several points above your cost doesnt mean its low margin to them, also dont forget that we get back end funding from the companies them selves. Independants definatly get better suport from product reps and sures the hell get more visits from demo cars and what not, but when it comes to dollar and cents the Big Box stores get taken care of better than the indies because we buy more product. The problem with big box stores is we can kill companies as quick as we expand them. Rockford is a perfect example. Rockford did very well on the indies for a long time, then they decided to go big and go to best buy. They expanded their manufacturing facilities and redesigned their products to supply the demand of a national retailer. The problem lies in that they didnt take off as quick as they thought and were very very close to going completly under for the first 3 years. Most dont relize how close they were to going under but they are a public company and all this kinda info was avalible on their corprate site during this time period. They have started to even out now but I still dont think they are turning a profit in a year big enough to constitute the move to the big stores. So now when any of you big box people bitch about not having stock on alpine or eclipse or what ever, just remember that it might be due to the fact that they didnt wanna bankrupt themselves to keep your 149 deck on your shelves.

-------------
double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer





Print Page | Close Window