should installers have a union?
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Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Mobile Electronics Questions and Answers
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=93382
Printed Date: April 24, 2024 at 5:26 AM
Topic: should installers have a union?
Posted By: easterly81
Subject: should installers have a union?
Date Posted: April 26, 2007 at 9:18 PM
Does anyone else out there thing at installers should have a union? I have been in the business for 8 years now and it seem ever since "Free Install" the installers wages have been decreasing. I mean its kind of crazy since our job keeps becoming more and more demanding with newer technologies. It just seems a lot of companies would rather hire young untalented people for less money and you all know the end result of that thinking. I just think that installers should be paid and respected more. Would do you think???
Replies:
Posted By: the12volt
Date Posted: April 26, 2007 at 9:50 PM
No, I don't think there should be a union for installers. The desire for better pay and respect does not warrant the need for a union. There are lots of opportunities out there, but you'll have to find them, even if it means moving. We were all young unexperienced people (some more talented than others). If you're unhappy with your present income/employer and you truly love being an installer, then move on if you wish to pursue it. Yes, I believe some should probably be paid more and I also believe some should probably be paid less. BTW, I've been in this business since 1976, you do the math ;) -------------  the12volt • Support the12volt.com
Posted By: sedate
Date Posted: April 27, 2007 at 12:44 AM
easterly81 wrote:
I have been in the business for 8 years now and it seem ever since "Free Install" the installers wages have been decreasing.
Do customers actually believe there is a such thing as "Free Installation?" There is this shop up from my house with a giant blinking neon "HOME OF THE 1 DOLLAR INSTALL" .. quite literally the sticker prices in there are like 20% ABOVE retail. Like they're charging $700 for Boston Pros. With or without the install. "It's included" I was told. easterly81 wrote:
It just seems a lot of companies would rather hire young untalented people for less money and you all know the end result of that thinking.
Ya know I think this really hits on it. There are *alot* of kids willing to do this stuff for pennies because it is so much fun. However, I would disagree with the position that they are untalented... to be honest... the *best* installer I've ever met.. the guy that taught me cars... was doing competetion quality stuff before he got his drivers liscense. This skill is very much an art. Its like a piano right.. some people can just "play." the12volt wrote:
The desire for better pay and respect does not warrant the need for a union.
Unions are certainly a tough can of worms in any situation... here I would argue here that the trend toward commoditzation of the industry really does preclude a realisic chance at a union forming. The workforce needs to be highly skilled for unions to have a realistic chance of the leverage they would require... nevermind the exceptionally disparte network of dealers and shops that make up this market niche. It would take a larger body, more representative of the electronics industry in general, like the CEA, to really pull something like this off... but the resulting alienation from business owners would render the organization moot.. I dunno I've taken to many econ classes this semester don't mind me. ------------- "I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
Posted By: Hymer
Date Posted: April 27, 2007 at 3:09 PM
Unions tend only to work when the employees the represent are under a contract withe BIG company. The only eception to this is probably the electrical workers union, and that is basiccally a safty issue with construction and the fact that you need to have a license to do the work. A union in our industry would not do any good due to the number of mom and pop shops. They can never afford a union, face it very few people are getting "rich" of this stuff, sure you can make a good living, BUT it is a struggle. I do agree with you that to many good installers are underpaid, and a lot of really bad ones are overpaid, but you can thank places like best buy and ckt city for that type of stuff [no offence meant for the guys who work there, more a corperate bash meant!] When you are selling product at a below minimum price because you buy a ton of units, then give away the install, well thats what happens, the mom and pops have to pay more for a quality product installed buy a higher [or lower paid], but highly skilled installer, thus leaving that shop out in the cold as far as much of a profit margin. The one stop, get all type of places [wally world, best buy ect..] have killed small business accross the US Iv'e watchewd it in my own town over tha past ten years, it really is sad. No more can you go down to a shop and ask a guy a question, and actually get an answer! Just a blank stare. The only way to combat it is NOT to shop at any of these types of stores, boycott them! as hard as it may be to do, help america kill wall mart!
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Tire Proz Stillwater Mn
High End Restyling and Comlete Repair
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: April 27, 2007 at 10:11 PM
A union would not necessarily apply to the mom and pop shops, like mine for example. I have the choice to hire that person and what to pay that person. Now for the big box butcher, that is a different story. If those employees of the big box do get unionized, they could cripple the big box in one fell swoop. Perhaps a union in the big box is a good thing, it would most definitely end "free installation" almost overnight as the clout of the union would no doubt be falling hard on the cheque signers...... Good pay is commensurate with good work. ------------- Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: lspker
Date Posted: April 27, 2007 at 11:25 PM
I've heard the some installers are members of the Telephone and Communication workers union. Problem being most shops don't have enough employees to unionize, of course big box stores do, and they desreve union workers. If you keep your installer happy (and ego in check) they won't need a union.
Posted By: extreme1
Date Posted: April 28, 2007 at 2:08 PM
Unions are for people who don't command what they're worth or people that think they;re worth more than they are. Socialist thinking.
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Shaughn Murley
Install Manager, Dealer Services
Visions Electronics
Red Deer, Alberta
Posted By: tragik
Date Posted: April 28, 2007 at 6:09 PM
An installer can make a very decent wage in this industry. The trick, as I have found it, is to be really good at what you do. Be fast, clean, and consistent, and you should do just fine. Also, once you get to that point, work for a shop that does a high volume and pays commission instead of an hourly rate. In Alaska it is not uncommon for an experienced installer who can install remote starts to make 600 to 800 dollars a day during the winter. Before I opened my own shop, I was pulling $60k+ per year. Unions lock you into a wage, which can work against those of us who would make more money on commision.
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Northstart.....or start it your damn self.
Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: April 28, 2007 at 10:05 PM
I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest.
The car audio industry is still fairly new. It has been around longer than most of us have been alive but it wasn’t until the early 90s when big bass hit the scene on a large scale that it has really taken off. Then it hit the TV shows and exploded.
All industries evolve in phases that take years to happen. These phases are dictated by things like current technology, global manufacturing economy, publics perceptions, affiliated technologies (MP3, Bluetooth, data buses, etc), and demand. Right now the car audio industry is once again reshaping its self due to big box stores, TV shows, and consequently very high demand.
The free install and uneducated installer thing is currently hitting the big box stores hard right now. They have tipped the scales of our industries economy and its coming back to haunt them. Most stores have resorted to black listing difficult vehicles due to law suits and unhappy customers. Vehicle manufactures are planning on incorporating data bus systems, HAVC, onboard DSP just to name a few into every vehicle. That spells out big problems for the big box stores and I love it! Two big box stores in my area have dropped car audio due to this. Consequently my business has increased substantially. I say let them fall on their faces, and don’t try to compete with them. Sell real performance oriented equipment (EQ’s, big amps, custom labor, components). The big box stores can’t touch that stuff.
The answer to installers uniting and getting paid more I believe will eventually happen whether we want it to or not. But a union is not the answer. Better education is the answer. What we need is something along the lines of MECP but much much better. I think MECP is a great idea that simply dose not work currently.
Eventually all vehicles will on average become difficult enough to install in that either the general public will become aware that they must seek a truly qualified installer that might cost more or the government will step in due to safety issues and mandate a certification. Either way the installer median wage will increase.
Posted By: easterly81
Date Posted: April 29, 2007 at 12:34 AM
I was talking about manly big box stores, sorry i guess i should have said only big box retail. I work for a big box store that has a good crew but im working for a company who is a large group of hacks. Maybe im just bitchin I make good money but more is always better. Ture big box hurts mom and pop,but I dont want to kill mom and pop stores if anything the more time and money intensive cars I send to the mom and pop store down the street, which we have a really good relationship with. I just hate the perception that car audio is not a technical job. I agree i think i should move on and leave the big box i dont like the idea that im supporting them
Posted By: sedate
Date Posted: April 29, 2007 at 10:24 AM
easterly81 wrote:
I was talking about manly big box stores, sorry i guess i should have said only big box retail.
Back to the original question, you would find that box stores brutally, brutally repress unionization. You'd find a Best Buy would shutter a store instead of allowing unionized employees. speakermasters wrote:
Most stores have resorted to black listing difficult vehicles due to law suits and unhappy customers.
I've never heard of this. What kind of cars are blacklisted these days? ------------- "I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: April 29, 2007 at 11:46 PM
I have been installing for 14 years and in management for 6 years now at 2 different mom and pop stores. At both stores I have been contracted to do installs on black listed vehicles for big box stores. Usually this happens when a vehicle is discovered to be on the list after work has already begun, and often after they have encountered technical difficulties. Now I should clarify here that when I am contracted to do this type of work the term “black list” is not used. Instead I am usually told that the installers have made a mistake and started to work on a car that they shouldn’t have. Now I don’t know if the call to not work on a vehicle comes from the corporate offices or if it is decided at a local level, and I don’t know if only certain locations are affected. The actual term “black list” comes from other installers that I have worked with over the years that came from big box stores. One black listed vehicle that I knew of was the Cadillac CTS for head unit upgrades before the interfaces and kit was available. And that vehicle was out for a while.
There is a lot of skill and talent in the install bays of big box stores and I don’t think that there is anything wrong with working at a big box store if you like it. But it seams to me that you guys have your hands tied when it comes to some things. My beef is with the pencil pushers at the corporate offices that could care less about our industry. When they start loosing money they just jump ship. They don’t care! Not to long ago I briefly considered going to work for a BB store for a good wage and decided not to when I was told that Full time hours was not an option because that would make me eligible for benefits. I was also told that if I decided to work on a vehicle that required more time than my shift that I had to either work for free or risk getting into trouble.
I say again. Let the big box stores fall on their faces. The true specialty stores will scoop up on all of the best installers they have and enjoy the increase in business!
Posted By: kassdog
Date Posted: April 30, 2007 at 10:02 PM
Ok time for me to chime in. I think a union would be a good idea for big box stores. I dont think it would happen, just think it would be a good idea for big box stores to only hire installers after they get a certificate saying they can install. I don't mean mecp either, anyone can read a book. I have never heard of blacklisted cars. Neither of the major big box stores has such a list as it just varies from installer to installer. I don't see anything wrong with an installer saying he can't do a car. I praise it so that way he doesn't attempt and screw up the car.
Posted By: speedwayaudio1
Date Posted: April 30, 2007 at 10:37 PM
Unions are why a $10,000 car cost $20,000. They are so unskilled people who can't make it on there skills and education can make $75,000 a year screwing on lug nuts. Now I'm not saying all union employess are like this, but thats what it has come to. Back in the days of child labor and sweat shops unions served there purpose. In todays world they just make stuff cost more.
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Big Dave
Posted By: easterly81
Date Posted: May 01, 2007 at 12:50 AM
speedwayaudio1 wrote:
In todays world they just make stuff cost more.
Thats a great thing for our industry. We need to kill free labor. I agree a union might not be the best thing, but I am a firm believer that free install is the worst thing to happen to Car Audio Install! This is what makes corporations and customers think installers are not skilled labors. Now i don't know how many times i have heard a stupid f#$*ing costumer say "oh I'll have my son do it" after i tell them they are going to need additional labor to install a head unit and rear speakers in a 93 Chevy pickup, or get angry be cause i cannot do the job on their 30 min lunch break!!! This is all do to the perception that the big box stores have created (granted that their is, was, and will always be stupid and ignorant people in this world). Bottom line I like what I do for a living im not gonna change careers, i just wish that people respect what we do! (not just custom shop but all of us)
Posted By: auex
Date Posted: May 01, 2007 at 1:23 AM
If we had a union nothing would ever get done. I used to think the same thing.
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Posted By: sedate
Date Posted: May 01, 2007 at 2:49 AM
speedwayaudio1 wrote:
Unions are why a $10,000 car cost $20,000.
Hmm. More precisely they are why $20,000 cars are being dumped on the market for $10,000. easterly81 wrote:
Thats a great thing for our industry. We need to kill free labor. I agree a union might not be the best thing, but I am a firm believer that free install is the worst thing to happen to Car Audio Install!
Seriously, as a consumer, I'm barely tolerant of an industry that demands some ~40-60% of equipment cost in subsequent installation. I know everyone feels underpaid, but seriously, car audio is really wayy expensive to get straight installed. There is simply no such thing as free installation. ------------- "I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview
Posted By: easterly81
Date Posted: May 01, 2007 at 11:23 PM
If you want it done right you have to pay.
Posted By: sarcomax
Date Posted: May 31, 2007 at 1:53 PM
I started working at best buy when i was 18 about 3 months after they went from commission to non commission, and there was a store that tried to unionize. three days later after a brick was thrown through the front window and 10 or so people had their attendence records pulled they decided that union was not the way to go.
Posted By: Big Dog
Date Posted: May 31, 2007 at 2:41 PM
Unions are like the mafia. If you don't unionize, they make sure you don't work (and maybe brake your legs). If you don't pay the mob, they make sure you don't work (and maybe brake your legs). Same thing. Whether it's unions or the mob - When they decide to move in, you're done for. Might as well go to the hardware store and buy a chain and padlock. They're money hungry and don't give a rats ass about you. But just to make sure that you get the feeling that you're getting something for your money, they'll stir up trouble every once in a while. I worked in a shop where they had a parity comitee decide that to work in the industry you had to pay fees. When I asked him why, he said it's to assure your salary. He didn't like my response that I had never seen him when I negotiated my salary several times over a period of 7 years. He then said it's to make sure you're getting a fair salary. When I asked him what that meant he gave a number which I laughed at and thanked him for NOT negotiating my salary - it's what I made 3 years previous! - jerk! "But what if my boss is overbearing, unfair or corrupt?" you ask. Leave. If you don't then it's your own fault. You hold your destiny in your hands. Places like this eventually get their just rewards. There are plenty of great places to work. I protected myself and "my employer" by being self-imployed while he sub-contracted his labor to me. All legal. Thank-you very much. ------------- Prepare your future. It wasn't the lack of stones that killed the stone age.
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