shaving side moldings

Alright guys obviously this is not fiberglassing but I need help and cant find any, anywhere else.  I need to know about shaving the side molding of a 97 civic. I have studied up on door handles so I know that on them you cut out a square and then you tack weld in a plate of sheet metal to cover the hole, grind, primer, paint, voila.   I'm doing some side moldings this weekend though I need to know do you still cut out an area then tack a plate to that or do you just start tacking without cutting it out? 
Any other tips are helpful also. I need to know as much as I can for this project. Its a real good buddie of mine so I dont want to mess up his doors.
Thanks, Realitycheck

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

how good can you weld? if not great you can EASILY warp a door skin to where it is basically no good lol. but, get some metal of same thickness, grind a little area above and below the molding, featheredge where you grinded with 80 grit, tack in small area by small area skipping around until you have it welded thoroughly(you can use a wet rag to help keep the thin guage metal semi-cool, grind your welds, i prefer using a filler like evercoats fiber-tech on top of the welds but you may use a regular filler like rage extreme. next block with 80 until almost smooth, block with 180 to get it "perfect" and to cover your 80 grit scratches, *3 good coats a primer surfacer, spray guide coat, wet sand with 400 grit, scuff entire door panel with gray scotch brite pad (scuff stuff, scuff and clean or just regular ajax will work), clean with wax/grease remover, tack off, base 2 times, tacking off in between, clear (2-3 coats should be fine)

*only do this if you are sure your body work is "straight", if not then use 3-4 coats of a high build primer on top of your filler, then block this using 180 grit (of course using a guide coat), then if you do not go thru to the metal anywhere you can water sand this using the 400 grit and contine the steps from there out

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paint and body       
"semi-professional"

and for your door handles on a lot of cars that have a lip around the inside of the handle, if you sand it just a little with 80 and clean it. then you can use a fusor or other chemical adhesive and bond a piece of metal in the hole, then you dont have to worry about using a welder. then just fill, etc.

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paint and body       
"semi-professional"

You could use 3M body pannel adhesive. That stuf is as strong if not stronger than a weld. Also look into body tinning or lead bars to fill in the unwanted areas. This is what I did to my truck and it worked perfect.

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Why do you ask if I ate paint chips when I was younger?

So on the moldings your saying dont cut it out.  Why do you not want to cut it out?  I know when they're doing handles you usually cut out a square around where the handle used to be, so why would you not on this?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

I welded mine in and then bondoed over it.  Then the first time I opened my door it met the front fender not nice. Make sure you cut out where the indention is on the front fender before you weld your new plate in or you will have a lot of work ahead of you.

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-Individuality-
Always remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.

I welded mine in and then bondoed over it. Then the first time I opened my door it met the front fender not nice. Make sure you cut out where the indention is on the front fender before you weld your new plate in or you will have a lot of work ahead of you.

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-Individuality-
Always remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.

realitycheck wrote:

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So on the moldings your saying dont cut it out.  Why do you not want to cut it out?  I know when they're doing handles you usually cut out a square around where the handle used to be, so why would you not on this?

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once you take your moldings off there is a cavity...to not cut it out just cut a seperate piece of metal and weld it in the cavity.  also on 9x percent of the cars you should NOT cut around where the handle used to be. just cut a piece of metal to fit in the hole

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paint and body       
"semi-professional"

Oh ok I got you.  I went back and looked at the car they cut out and there was no way they could done it without cutting it. It was a grand am or something. I see what your saying now.    So uz2b  tell me how hard is this?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

how hard is what?

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paint and body       
"semi-professional"

this process. Is it really as hard as everybody says it is?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

First off, just to re-touch on cutting out your molding area...If you did that, you would loose all the rigidity of your car door. It's not just there for decoration or for the sake of having more body lines, it's there to strengthen the door panel so it stiffens up to withstand normal wear and tear. That is also one reason that there is a small lip all the way around your door handle opening.

Second of all, plan on taking a few days to weld the piece in. I just put two new quarter panels on a 92 civic hatchback. We had to section it in, right above the side molding. Thats only about a 14-16 inch length. It took me at least two hours to weld it. You have to tack weld it. One little spot at a time, 15-20 seconds between each little tack weld, and space your welds out by about at least 8 inches. If you rush it, you will warp the door panel beyone belief. Don't quench your welds with a wet rag, this can harden your welds and make them brittle, let them cool naturaly. Besides, you don't want water getting on your bare metal.

Remember when you are grinding your welds, grinding will create heat and the heat from grinding can also warp your panel. Grind small areas at a time, and skip from one place to another till they are all ground down to your liking.

I admire the way you want to attack this project. The only way to learn how to do this is by trying. But with trial can sometimes come error. I don't know if you want to risk an error on your friends car. I always use my own cars to learn on first.

good luck, let us know how it turns out!

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Yeah the trial did have error. Thank the Lord we were only working on an old fender off of a wrecked car. We used  that one to practice with before we started on the real thing. We did pretty good, used a little more bondo than I would have liked. His dad said that it wasnt too much though. I really wanted a skim coat of it but it didnt fit well enough for that. We had one high spot that his dad said we could pretty much never work out. Unless we dolly it out but he wasnt sure if you could even do that.  We also had this bubble area we weren't sure if it happened in the wreck he had or if we did it with the heat. Either is possible but we tried to keep the heat down as much as possible, I only did 3 or 4 tacks at a time. Then he would hit it with an air gun after I got through welding.    One question Wherm do you want to have your settings on your mig, like do you want that nice sizzle that when you tack it penetrates really nicely and lays down the tack pretty much flat, or do you want to turn the welder way down so that it welds but not much penetration and the tack kind of sits on top of everything?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

Being I-CAR welding certified, I have to say that anytime you weld something, you need to have penetration. If you don't, your weld will be weak and could easily crack apart. The bubble area you are talking about I'm guessing is what we call "oil can." Does the sheet metal pop in and out like an old fashion oil can? If so, that is caused by the heat and the only way to get rid of that is to use a torch and heat shrink the metal. The way to avoid it is by welding slower, and letting the welds cool naturally. I understand the air gun theory, but cooling it too fast isn't always the best idea. Patience with this project will ensure success. And remember, the more penetration, the better the weld. The flatter the weld, less grinding you have to do. Don't grind any one area too long or you could warp the metal doing that too. When you put the body filler on, make sure you hit the entire area with at least 80 grit, preferably coarser like 36 grit. Never put bondo over paint. It won't stick!!! Trust me. Make sure you've removed the paint wherever you're welding. And if you have a body shop supply around you, you should think about seeing if they have any corrosion protection you could spray inside the molding you're shaving. That'll ensure that your bare welds on the inside don't rust from the inside out.

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I got you wherm the only reason I asked about the penetration thing is I knew that there would be less heat if you did it the other way. My guess was that it was a bad idea but I just figured i'd find out. So the best way also is not to cool it with the air just let it cool naturally. No the bubble did not do the oil can thing. In fact I tried to push on it and it was really hard did not move at all actually. So im wondering if it was caused from the wreck what do you think? Thanks for the advice any thing else you got will help me tremendously.

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

If the bubble was hard, I doubt you did it while welding. If you have any more questions, just post them and I'll get notification emails and answer them if I can.

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Can you practice on like an old door, and just keep practicing on it. Like even cut holes in it and patch them??  
Or will the heat just warp it so much you cant tell if your doing it right or not?
Also do you use an air nibbler if so what brand and how well do you like it?
If not what do you use to cut the sheet metal?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

You can definately practice on an old door, but it would be best to practice just like it was the real thing. That way you can tell if it's going well. Continuous practice on a single piece will warp it if you just start welding all over it. Pace yourself and take your time. Also, it's a good idea to use a piece of scrap metal that's similiar to what your welding on to set your voltage and wire speed on the welder.

You can use an air nibbler if you want, I usually use a good air saw. Mine is from MAC Tools. Draw your lines on the metal and cut carefully. You can use a grinder to take off any excess material, instead of going back and trying to trim with the saw once it's cut.

Just to be sure, you are using a mig welder with gas hookups right?

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In my honest opinion I would use something like 3M pannel bonding adhesive. This way you do not need to mess with warping and rusting later on down the road.

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Why do you ask if I ate paint chips when I was younger?

Yes sir, mig welder with 75%-25% argon mix. No flux core.  I thought about the air saw, I'm just wondering which is better to use? I guess its all a matter of opinion.  I've never used an air saw or nibbler.  Wherm how do you keep the rust out?

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

The best way to protect it from rust is to use a spray gun with a flexible wand that you can run down the inside of the shaved molding. you can use that to primer the inside and cover all the bare metal. Let that sit for a day or so and then spray corrosion protection in there. Now taking into consideration that I live in Wisconsin, this is something that I would not skimp out on. Depending on where you're located, it might not even be that important. Also, I know that on my Accord, if I were to shave the moldings, they are deep enough that a spray wand would fit in there once the metal was welded across them. Your civic moldings may be too shallow, so I would only remove the paint precisely where the welds are going. Also, you should primer the back side of the metal strip before you weld it in and remove the primer along the edges so when you weld it's metal on metal, with no paint in between. Granted, welding it will burn some of it off, but better than having no primer at all.

When you take the paint off, use a clean and strip wheel, not a grinding disc. Clean and strip wheels are available from 3M and they work great. They will only take off the paint. A grinding disc will grind down paint, but also grind down the metal making it thinner and you'll burn through with your welder.

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Well I live in alabama, humidity out of this world.  So definitely need to deal with the rust thing. Excellent wherm, thanks again for all the info. I apologize for so many questions.  You have given me more info than anyone though. If I ever have anymore questions I will probably hit you up. No i've just got to get some practice material and get cracking.

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Learning the trade one fiberglass creation at a time!

No such thing as to many questions.

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Why do you ask if I ate paint chips when I was younger?