issues with 2009 vw golf hid

My buddy put a set of HIDs in his mom's 2009 VW Golf and was having an intermittent issue with the HIDs not powering up on the first try. We figured it was just a power issue and decided to put a relay in. We got it all wired up (and I must say, it looked great... unless you really looked, you couldn't tell it wasn't factory) and with the car just on (not running) they worked great. However, once you actually started the car the relay starting going NUTS... very rapid clicking and eventually the HIDs just shut off.

I tried running the ground straight to the chassis and just triggering it off the headlight + switched, I tried triggering the relay both by just one headlight, and by tying the 2 headlight + triggers together. I tried different relays, and I even tried using 2 separate relays (each 30a/40a). It doesn't have anything to do with the draw of the ballasts b/c the relay was going nuts even with just Pins 85 and 86 connected (nothing on 30 and 87).

Please help.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

anyone???

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

How were the relays wired - by intercepting the standard bulb connectors?

Well I tried a couple different ways (will just list the 85 / 86 pins)

1st Try:
85: Factory (-) signal from headlight
86: Factory (+) signal from headlight

2nd Try:
85: Chassis Ground
86: Factory (+) signal from headlight

I also even tried reversing the pins in each try to see if maybe there was an internal diode in the relay... All tries ended in the same result. Perfectly fine with the vehicle just turned to "ON" but once started the relay would just go completely nuts (relay chatter). And this was with nothing connected to 30, 87, or 87a yet.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Try #1 should be fine.

No matter how I look at it - assuming normal tungsten or halogen etc bulbs (ie, not HIDs, flouros, LEDs etc) and no dimmer - the headlamp bulb pins must have the normal 12V across them.

However, if they have current sensing that therefore disconnects the power... (but why for an under current?)


If it were a traditional VW (come almost anything continental) I'd blame the usual crap wiring and connectors and ceramic fuses and...
Though it wouldn't surprise me if it's some new sensing thing that they think is a great idea...



Of course, cheap HIDs... (??)
Or noise issues....


That's why I'm waiting for LEDs. They crap all over HIDs anyhow...

They were just plain factory H7 halogens. I believe there may be some sort of voltage stabilizer with the headlight circuit. Testing the headlight wires, with the car running I am still only getting approx. 12.6volts at the headlight wires with the headlight switch in the DRL position (only 2 positions, DRL and On. The headlights are on regardless and the "on" simply turns on the das lights), even though the battery is showing around 14v. However, when I change the headlight switch to "On", the voltage increases to approx. 13.6volts.

They are a cheap set of HID's, but even with the HID's disconnected, and ONLY running the relay 85 / 86 pins I am getting the relay chatter.... which eliminates the HID's as the cause. When I keep the DMM on the wires, there does not appear to be any fluctuation in voltage between the car running or not running so I don't understand what is causing the relay chatter. My buddy is away on vacation at the moment, so I don't have the car, but I may try to test with a little better DMM to see if possibly there is a fluctuation in the voltage, but it is too quick for my DMM to recognize....

Any other ideas??? I'm at a loss.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Hmmm - still seems "valid".
And you're no noob - you have a huge reply count. (wth!! Am I that high? That's ridiculous - YOU guys are the experts on here!)
Not that a high count means much - other than survival. But as I recall, offroadzj is another goodie.


But, as DRLs I'd expect 6V etc if the H7s are series connected - not that that will show with a DMM (unless measuring across a bulb; a voltmeter in series through another bulb will measure the full applied voltage - as we know (but sometimes forget?) but novices fail to understand).   

If it's PWM, the DMM should fluctuate, usually either ~+12V or ~0V.

So in DRL mode I can see issues - eg, 2 series connections but with one bulb missing (hence open circuit), or PWM (maybe a diode & cap to hold the relay energised).


Voltage stabilisation? That IMO gets back to PWM... for soft-starts or if over-voltage protection were used (I don't envisage zenor diodes etc) or even a dc-dc converter to avoid dips.
So again, a diode and cap for a relay-coil ride-through of a few mSecs (IN4004 etc unless a high-speed Schottky was required).


So yeah, I can think of a few possibilities.
However I expect someone to jump in and state the obvious (like CAN-bus modulated beams, or security chipped H7 bulbs) or something even simpler...


Maybe it's time to bite the bullet.
That used to involve finding the wiring diagrams (for Jap cars!).
These days I resort to my chant: Howard... Howard... Howard! (please... please... please...)
[Not meaning to deflect credit from my other heroes on the12volt, but I usually pick on Howard - except if it involves a particular idiotic name!]


But Kenny, though I shouldn't..., I want to see the solution - or problem - behind this one.
But after my recent stupidity in the subs 2-4-8 Ohm switching thread, I may back off this one a bit.


Howard... Howard... Howard...

It really has me stumped. I did think of possibly a lower voltage due to the DRL, but the DMM was showing 12v both by connecting each lead to each connection, and also by testing the (+) and grounding the (-) lead of the DMM to the battery. Then I thought maybe by some slim chance there wasn't enough juice to throw the relay (even though I HIGHLY doubt a bulb would draw less power than it would take to trip a relay). So I connected the connections of both sides together to the relay... still no dice.

One other thing I noticed, but forgot about was that if I switched the actual switch to "ON" it would usually fix the problem. I would get about a second or so of relay chatter but then it would be fine. Which sort of supports the 6V DRL theory... but why would the 2 connections still show up as 12v on the DMM???

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Are you measuring across the bulbs for the DRL voltage?

If not, you have a voltmeter of high impedance in series with a hi-wattage bulb (low resistance), hence measuring the full 12V etc (ie, a voltage divider with a low resistance and high resistance - the low-R is negligible, hence reading 12V).

Place the voltmeter in between GND and any bulb GND and you'll measure 12V with the bulb powered.

The wiring is odd. There is a large plug that plugs into the headlight housing And everything is internal to the housing. When we put the HIDs in, we had to actually cut one of the mounted terminals off the housing. So there are now 2 female spade connectors that once went to the bulb. If I measure the Voltage between those 2 wires (that were originally connected directly to the bulb) I get 12volts. Likewise, when I measure the voltage using only the + connection (and grounding the other lead to the battery) I also get 12volts. The bulb itself is no longer connected.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Here is a very rough MS Paint diagram of what / how I am testing.


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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

You can't measure the voltage without the bulbs installed.
Reinsert the bulbs, switch to DRLs and then measure across each bulb.
Or use equal wattage smaller bulbs or maybe resistors - eg, two 1/4W (or higher) 1k (or higher) resistors.

Ahhh... I was not aware of that. I may have been around the 12v world for a while, but there is still plenty I don't know... I'll be a noob for a while... lol. When he gets back and we get our hands on the car I'll give it another go. But I have a feeling you are right and my issue is with too low of a voltage.

If that is the case, is there a way to use both bulbs and get my 12v (ie running in series)??? If so, is it just a simple relay to + of one side, - of that side to + of the other side, then - of the other side back to the relay? Or is it not just a simple series circuit???

Thanks again for all the help!

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Well that's the issue - how do you intend to power the HIDs in DRL mode? You can't series connect them...

Figures... I didn't think it would be that easy... lol. Since the DRL's come on with ignition anyways and as far as I know the ONLY time they are off while the car is on is POSSIBLY when the high beams are on. So I may end up running a wire from under the dash (tagging the same parking light wire as I would for a r/s) to the relay under the hood... or I may try testing the parking light wires and using the side marker light to trigger the relay. I'm not 100% sure yet, nor am I even sure we will have to worry about it. He said that it only had the problem once. So when he gets back I'll see if he even wants to bother with it or not.
Thanks for the help!!!

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Were the DRLs the original bulbs (and hence probably in series), or are the DRLs separate lights?

Although HIDs could operate from half voltage, they'd still be at full brightness. Their ballast is (as far as I know) a dc-dc converter, and not that I expect most to be capable of running with a 6-7V supply, automotive dc-dc converters are capable, viz PC ATX-type DC PSUs, and my recently posted link to current-logic.com.


But hence the DRL mode must be inhibited from appearing at the bulb sockets (so the relays get their full 12V coil voltage) and some other lighting used as DRLs (maybe bright parkers?).

But perhaps some HIDs have a dim(mer) mode?

And if series switching is used, then the 12V relays should operate from ONE of the 2 bulb sockets provided the coil GND is not grounded thru the bulb socket.
IE - one bulb's +12V should remain in DRL mode. The other bulb's +12V is reconnected to GND, and both bulb grounds are (still?) connected together but disconnected from GND so that they "float" at ~6V (half the supply voltage).
That's one way of switching non-polarised bulbs from parallel to series. But even for polarised lights (eg, LEDs, HIDs - even though they would not use series connectivity for DRL mode), one bulb should still have one pin at +12V irrespective of iy being in beam or DRL mode. And that's what you could use to energise the relay(s) for the HIDs, though you shouldn't need the relay...

Another method could be to use 6V relay(s) but with a current limiter for each relay coil - else a 6-7V voltage regulator. (The LM317 being ideal for either case.)


PS - it should be solvable and doable, the issue is finding the appropriate method.
And it also assumes no CAN nor current sensor etc complications. I don't know how far they have integrated such interfaces, but if changing radios can disable a vehicle, I dread to think what a "safety" requirement like lights could do (though not disable the vehicle, I hope... but then again...)

I'll see what happens when he gets back. I will test the headlight wires again but with the factory bulb connected and see what I get. if its not 12v then I'll test the parking light and see if I get 12v there. If so I'll just connect the relay to the parking light trigger. We'll see what happens.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205