stereo issues

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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running off the factory wiring -tweeter and mid bass wired in paralell running on factory wires to doors

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Oh my!

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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14ga wires ran through the Molex crap in each front door(pain in the ass by the way...)

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Use 18 guage for your cabin speakers.  Its much, much easier to work with and it won't make any sort of a sonically detectable difference, even with that Eclipse amp.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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Could something have been damaged while doing this?

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Oh yea.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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I just don't understand how shorting the speaker leads of the sub amp would have anything to do with my other amps. Does anyone else?

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This is sort of like shoving a stick of RAM onto your motherboard while the computer is running and then wondering how the BIOS got scrambled. 

The concept isn't about what amp you touched, it is more about the fact that you induced some huge, unexpected, and apparently totally uncontrolled voltage spike into your electrical system back there.  While it doesn't speak too highly of your amps (I betcha a well built JL woulda handled that ok, I've done worse to mine) the problem doesn't suprise me one bit.  

You don't mention it really, but you've checked your fuses?  That would be the cheapest thing here.  Do the amplifiers actually turn on or are they just dead?

Seriously man, in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that.  Wayyy more expensive than an amp.  You should have DISCONNECTED YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE GOING ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR AMPLIFIER WIRING.

I'm going to say that again, because you don't seem like you take many safety precautions.

DISCONNECT YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE TOUCHING YOUR AMPLIFIERS.

For good sakes man, next time you work on your car get some safety goggles and a helmet.

sedate wrote:

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greenbroncoguy wrote:

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running off the factory wiring -tweeter and mid bass wired in paralell running on factory wires to doors

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Oh my!

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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14ga wires ran through the Molex crap in each front door(pain in the ass by the way...)

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Use 18 guage for your cabin speakers.  Its much, much easier to work with and it won't make any sort of a sonically detectable difference, even with that Eclipse amp.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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Could something have been damaged while doing this?

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Oh yea.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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I just don't understand how shorting the speaker leads of the sub amp would have anything to do with my other amps. Does anyone else?

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This is sort of like shoving a stick of RAM onto your motherboard while the computer is running and then wondering how the BIOS got scrambled. 

The concept isn't about what amp you touched, it is more about the fact that you induced some huge, unexpected, and apparently totally uncontrolled voltage spike into your electrical system back there.  While it doesn't speak too highly of your amps (I betcha a well built JL woulda handled that ok, I've done worse to mine) the problem doesn't suprise me one bit.  

You don't mention it really, but you've checked your fuses?  That would be the cheapest thing here.  Do the amplifiers actually turn on or are they just dead?

Seriously man, in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that.  Wayyy more expensive than an amp.  You should have DISCONNECTED YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE GOING ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR AMPLIFIER WIRING.

I'm going to say that again, because you don't seem like you take many safety precautions.

DISCONNECT YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE TOUCHING YOUR AMPLIFIERS.

For good sakes man, next time you work on your car get some safety goggles and a helmet.

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Ok, where am I going to start with all this...

"Use 18 guage for your cabin speakers.  Its much, much easier to work with and it won't make any sort of a sonically detectable difference, even with that Eclipse amp."  - The wires are already ran, so this was a useless statement. It is already in the car...

"Seriously man, in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that.  Wayyy more expensive than an amp.  You should have DISCONNECTED YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE GOING ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR AMPLIFIER WIRING. " - Fry my cars ECU from shorting speaker outputs - not hardly. Possibly from grounding them out I would think, but not just from shorting the speaker outputs. I know to disconnect the battery when playing working on electrical equipment on cars(there was something about that in my ASE classes), but why would I go through all that trouble to do that when all I was disconnecting just SPEAKE WIRES??? There were NO open ended power wires anywhere, and I was not anywhere near any amps. All I unhooked was some speaker leads from my sub box. Who normally disconnects the battery when unhooking speaker wires? While I understand I should have had the system off before doing this(error on my part), there is no way I am disconnecting the battery to swap a speaker

advanced_audio wrote:

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Are your amps coming on at all or they just not producing any sound? Maybe the reason your not getting much help is you kind of went off on the last guy that tried to helped ya. Meter the amp turn on wire. There is still alot of testing with a meter you can do or if you have, post some info on all you have done since to troubleshoot this problem.

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The only reason I was upset about that post was because the comments given were not helpful whatsoever - how is telling me I only need smaller wire than what I have when I already have the wire ran going to help me, or anyone else? It was just a useless statement and should not have been posted IMHO. Also, there was incorrect information contained in that post regarding the ECU thing and then the instructions to disconnect the battery when hooking up speakers - lol! But I harbor no hard feelings, and perhaps I was a bit too harsh, and I apologize...

sedate wrote:

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Seriously man, in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that.  Wayyy more expensive than an amp.  You should have DISCONNECTED YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE GOING ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR AMPLIFIER WIRING.

I'm going to say that again, because you don't seem like you take many safety precautions.

DISCONNECT YOUR NEGATIVE BATTERY TERMINAL BEFORE TOUCHING YOUR AMPLIFIERS.

For good sakes man, next time you work on your car get some safety goggles and a helmet.

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^^^ But it was partially this part of the post that wized me off - like I'm some kind of dumb a55 who has no idea what he's doing. It just seemed as though he didn't take the time to read and UNDERSTAND what I wrote in my OP. It seemed like he thought I was fooling with and shorted the power wires or something...

aznboi3644 wrote:

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what crossover are you using for the 2 ways...if you used a decent passive crossover than the tweeters should not blow at all

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I am using the DCX-730 (digital processor) to set x-overs/time alignment/EQ/level matching/ect. The tweeters blowing is not my problem - I know why they blew and that issue has been fixed. I will not be going back from active to passive x-overs - that is not an option. The processor has all the tuning elements needed for the entire system, even for when I go 3-way.

My issue is I need to know if/how shorting speaker leads on one amp can effect other amps in the system - that is why I posted up my entire system layout in the OP for anyone who would like to try and diagnose the problem. I didn't have much time to search around for anything the other day, so I don't know if the amps are coming on or not - I know this is relative information, but I posted up what I have at the moment.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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I was upset about that post was because the comments given were not helpful whatsoever - how is telling me I only need smaller wire than what I have when I already have the wire ran going to help me, or anyone else? It was just a useless statement and should not have been posted IMHO.

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You spent a sentence or so complaining about the difficulty you had wiring through your door molex.  I was trying to give you a tip for the future - "stitch in time saves nine" or whatever.  I'm sorry this advice didn't fix your amps.  I was trying to be helpful.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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Also, there was incorrect information contained in that post regarding the ECU thing and then the instructions to disconnect the battery when hooking up speakers - lol!

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Well.  Given that your amps are broken, maybe you'd re-evaluate your logic?

For the record, disconnecting the battery when working on amps is sort of like wearing a motorcycle helmet - it is probably unneeded 95% of the time.  You do it incase you try to hook something up and something stops working . .

Please keep in mind that had you followed this simple, two-minute step, your amps would be working now.

Since you complain about me not carefully reading your OP, I find it odd that you didn't carefully read mine.

sedate wrote:

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in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that

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Let's disect this sentence.  IN THEORY was the phrasing I used.  I carefully chose this phrasing because I agree that IN PRACTICE this is a very unlikely outcome.

However, if you genuinely believe that inducing an uncontrolled 100-amp voltage spike in your cars electrical system does not have the potential to fry your vehicle's electronics, then you didn't pay much attention in your ASE classes.  I agree that fuses and what-not should prevent this, and damaging the car itself is an unlikely - but possible - outcome. 

You seem to believe you "hooked up a speaker" like you plugged in a cigarette lighter or something.  You hooked up paralleled subwoofers - electrically speaking we would call this a significant load - to a cheesy, poorly built amplfier with what I assume is minimalist internal construction, which is artificially grafted onto the vehicles electrical subsystem - WHILE IN ACTIVE OPERATION.

What you did was suddenly induce a huge voltage spike with a cheesy amplifier, creating so many possibilities of electric gremlins etc., we don't really have anything to go on.  You say yourself you haven't metered anything, don't know if the amps are even turning on, and haven't checked your fuses. 

I'm the unhelpful one?

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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But it was partially this part of the post that wized me off - like I'm some kind of dumb a55 who has no idea what he's doing. It just seemed as though he didn't take the time to read and UNDERSTAND what I wrote in my OP

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I mean, you ran full range to Focal tweeters off an Eclipse amp, and did so knowingly.  My conclusion wasn't that your are a dumb a55, but probably inexperienced or simply unknowledgable.  Given the huge price tag associated with your equipment list, I assumed your lack of precautions and very foolish wiring scheme were results of that (apparent) inexperience. 

Again, you indicate a huge number of installation choices that anyone experienced simply wouldn't make.  I try to skew my advice to the person recieving it - in your case a good stern reminder of safety precations seemed appropriate. 

I didn't mean to insult ya, but good god man, go back and re-read your OP and try to imagine someone elses' conclusions.  I was, in a rather obtuse fashion I admit, trying to save YOU money and time and frusteration. 

sedate wrote:

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You spent a sentence or so complaining about the difficulty you had wiring through your door molex.  I was trying to give you a tip for the future - "stitch in time saves nine" or whatever.  I'm sorry this advice didn't fix your amps.  I was trying to be helpful.

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Ok, I will admit I may have taken this a bit out of context, but to be fair I think after hearing me admit it was such a PITA I would probably not do it agian, but I can absolutely understand what you are saying here - this one was my fault...

sedate wrote:

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Well.  Given that your amps are broken, maybe you'd re-evaluate your logic?

For the record, disconnecting the battery when working on amps is sort of like wearing a motorcycle helmet - it is probably unneeded 95% of the time.  You do it incase you try to hook something up and something stops working . .

Please keep in mind that had you followed this simple, two-minute step, your amps would be working now.

While this is true, the more sensable approach would be to simply turn the system OFF like I said I KNEW I should have done. Had I been disconnecting bare 12v+ wires, I most assuredly would have had the battery disconnected.

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sedate wrote:

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[Since you complain about me not carefully reading your OP, I find it odd that you didn't carefully read mine.

sedate wrote:

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in theory you could have fried your car's ECU doing that

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Let's disect this sentence.  IN THEORY was the phrasing I used.  I carefully chose this phrasing because I agree that IN PRACTICE this is a very unlikely outcome.

However, if you genuinely believe that inducing an uncontrolled 100-amp voltage spike in your cars electrical system does not have the potential to fry your vehicle's electronics, then you didn't pay much attention in your ASE classes.  I agree that fuses and what-not should prevent this, and damaging the car itself is an unlikely - but possible - outcome. 

You seem to believe you "hooked up a speaker" like you plugged in a cigarette lighter or something.  You hooked up paralleled subwoofers - electrically speaking we would call this a significant load - to a cheesy, poorly built amplfier with what I assume is minimalist internal construction, which is artificially grafted onto the vehicles electrical subsystem - WHILE IN ACTIVE OPERATION.

What you did was suddenly induce a huge voltage spike with a cheesy amplifier, creating so many possibilities of electric gremlins etc., we don't really have anything to go on.  You say yourself you haven't metered anything, don't know if the amps are even turning on, and haven't checked your fuses. 

I'm the unhelpful one?

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A 100a voltage spike? While that statement doesn't even make sense, where did 100a come from? It was one speaker output(I must have some badass 14ga wire if it is handling 100a, and I really have a kick ass POS Audiobahn amp. And it "could theroretically" take a static discharge to wipe out the ECU - doesn't mean it does or everwill.  And it was nowhere near a "huge voltage spike" I was definately not blasting the volume when only attempting to verify that the drivers were working.

sedate wrote:

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I mean, you ran full range to Focal tweeters off an Eclipse amp, and did so knowingly.  My conclusion wasn't that your are a dumb a55, but probably inexperienced or simply unknowledgable.  Given the huge price tag associated with your equipment list, I assumed your lack of precautions and very foolish wiring scheme were results of that (apparent) inexperience. 

Again, you indicate a huge number of installation choices that anyone experienced simply wouldn't make.  I try to skew my advice to the person recieving it - in your case a good stern reminder of safety precations seemed appropriate. 

I didn't mean to insult ya, but good god man, go back and re-read your OP and try to imagine someone elses' conclusions.  I was, in a rather obtuse fashion I admit, trying to save YOU money and time and frusteration. 

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Yet agian, you did not thouroughly read my post; I CURRENTLY have the Focal tweets installed in my system, running off the Orion amp, the signal to which is processesed by the DCX-730 -  I have NEVER ran a fullrange signal to these tweeters - and the only reason I did before is because I was running off the stock wiring - which I am no longer doing because I have REWIRED my system with that huge, PITA to run 14ga wire.  I knew when I put the crappy set of tweets in running parallel with the mids that they would blow, but I had to have some form of highs, and the old ones were cheap and I didn't care.

Perhaps I may have overdone it in my initial response, but I do not need to be talked down to. And you DID misconstrue several aspects of my initial post - which was most of why I was so bothered by your reply.

advanced_audio wrote:

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Well if you want your problem solved, you should test your amps to see if they come on. If not test with the radio on to see if there is any voltage present on the remote turn on lead, if voltage is present, test the amplifier to see if it is getting any voltage on the power side, if not check the fuses on the amp. When you have done these things repost with what your results are. Let's stop the feuding please as it's counter productive to what were attempting to accomplish.

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Yeah, this is first on my list of things to try when I have time. But, I work nights so I won't have time to do it until Thursday, my first day off for the weekend. I basically just wanted to know if there was a possibility that, with my system layout, what happened could have caused damage to other components in my system.

I know more or less how to track down what is actually wrong, but perhaps I did not make my request clear in my OP. My apoogies...

greenbroncoguy, advanced_audio is one of several on the forum who'd like to help you figure things out, but the car's not in his or anybody's shop.  You have the meters but you don't have the time.  It looks like you posted the horse before the cart.  Re your last question (IMHO):  At this point, all possibilities exist.

But I did get some enjoyment out of the entertaining part of this thread.  You and sedate both wrote better rebuttals than I could ever achieve. 

stevdart wrote:

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greenbroncoguy, advanced_audio is one of several on the forum who'd like to help you figure things out, but the car's not in his or anybody's shop.  You have the meters but you don't have the time.  It looks like you posted the horse before the cart.  Re your last question (IMHO):  At this point, all possibilities exist.

But I did get some enjoyment out of the entertaining part of this thread.  You and sedate both wrote better rebuttals than I could ever achieve. 

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I have no issue with advanced_audio whatsoever - and I appreciate the help immensely. I understand that I may have started this thread a little pre-maturely; however, I wanted to get the ball rolling and hopefully get some ideas flowing about if what happened could have possibly led to the demise of my other equipment.

As for the rebuttals, maybe I just like to argue and am in the wrong profession Still, I have no beef with the other dude, at this point I could call it a draw and drop that whole thing. I'm sure we both have better things to do with our time - like fix my system :)

Ok, so I just went out and did some checking, and the amps and the DCX all come on. The sound still only comes from the rear fills, which are run from the HU. When I turn on the system, there is a loud "thud" from the subs, and nothing else.

I still won't have time to remove my sub box and take the POS Audiobahn amp out of the equation until Thursday, but at least I know the DCX is still outputting a remote turn on signal to the amps, and everything is powering on.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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As for the rebuttals, maybe I just like to argue and am in the wrong profession Still, I have no beef with the other dude, at this point I could call it a draw and drop that whole thing. I'm sure we both have better things to do with our time - like fix my system :)

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More productive things?  Sure.  Better?  No way.  I love arguing the fine technical points of car audio and your last response was ripe with minutia to quibble over. . .

Well.  I think I just like to argue.

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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When I turn on the system, there is a loud "thud" from the subs, and nothing else.

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Like - everytime you turn on the system?  Reliably and reproducibly?  Huh.

stevdart wrote:

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You and sedate both wrote better rebuttals than I could ever achieve. 

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Cheers, stevdart.

sedate wrote:

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More productive things?  Sure.  Better?  No way.  I love arguing the fine technical points of car audio and your last response was ripe with minutia to quibble over. . .

Well.  I think I just like to argue.

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What, helping me isn't productive? Please, please, please, please tell me it is with a light-hearted and joking attitude you type this with, as I was seriously ready to drop this but I can go all day if need be. All's good though, I just couldn't quite tell...

sedate wrote:

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Like - everytime you turn on the system?  Reliably and reproducibly?  Huh.

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Yes, the same exact thing every time I turn on the system, so long as the volume on the HU is 1/35 and over. If the volume is all the way down when it powers on, then nothing...

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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Ok, so I just went out and did some checking, and the amps and the DCX all come on. The sound still only comes from the rear fills, which are run from the HU. When I turn on the system, there is a loud "thud" from the subs, and nothing else.

I still won't have time to remove my sub box and take the POS Audiobahn amp out of the equation until Thursday, but at least I know the DCX is still outputting a remote turn on signal to the amps, and everything is powering on.

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If all the amps and processor are turning on, then the next step is to be sure they are getting signal.  Swap the working output on the processor to the inputs on the nonworking amps (be careful of volume level first) and see if you get sound.  Let us know what you find from there.

BTW, what are you using to set crossover/level/alignment settings in the processor for your speakers?  Are you using some sort of measurement device to get an active response of the speakers in their mounted locations?  Or are you doing it all by ear?

Steven Kephart wrote:

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greenbroncoguy wrote:

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Ok, so I just went out and did some checking, and the amps and the DCX all come on. The sound still only comes from the rear fills, which are run from the HU. When I turn on the system, there is a loud "thud" from the subs, and nothing else.

I still won't have time to remove my sub box and take the POS Audiobahn amp out of the equation until Thursday, but at least I know the DCX is still outputting a remote turn on signal to the amps, and everything is powering on.

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If all the amps and processor are turning on, then the next step is to be sure they are getting signal.  Swap the working output on the processor to the inputs on the nonworking amps (be careful of volume level first) and see if you get sound.  Let us know what you find from there.

BTW, what are you using to set crossover/level/alignment settings in the processor for your speakers?  Are you using some sort of measurement device to get an active response of the speakers in their mounted locations?  Or are you doing it all by ear?

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This was next on my list, but my box and all has to come out for me to be able to get to the DCX and swap things around.

As far as setting the x-overs; I haven't really started to tune yet since I've gotten the re-wire done and the Focal's put in. I just set up some preliminary x-over points (which I have listed below for reference) just as a starting point. I realize the high-pass for the tweets is rather low, but since it's a two way, I think it has to be. I think I am going to get a set of Seas Lotus RT27's to replace the Focal's, as they are suppose to be able to be crossed low like I need.

Tweeters - 2500hz & up 12db slope

MIdbass's - 80hz - 2500hz 12db slope

Sub - 25hz - 63hz  12db slope

greenbroncoguy wrote:

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I realize the high-pass for the tweets is rather low, but since it's a two way, I think it has to be.

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Hmm.  I'm running an active wiring scheme as well and I crossed my tweets up at 4k - I'd play with this 2.5k a bit.  I'd be afraid with so much musical info coming from tweets, they'd take on a real bright tenor - assuming they'd handle the freq over the long term.  But I'm not real familiar with Focal tweets...

I dunno.  Post back when you figure out your signal situation and can eliminate that audiobahn.

sedate wrote:

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greenbroncoguy wrote:

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I realize the high-pass for the tweets is rather low, but since it's a two way, I think it has to be.

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Hmm.  I'm running an active wiring scheme as well and I crossed my tweets up at 4k - I'd play with this 2.5k a bit.  I'd be afraid with so much musical info coming from tweets, they'd take on a real bright tenor - assuming they'd handle the freq over the long term.  But I'm not real familiar with Focal tweets...

I dunno.  Post back when you figure out your signal situation and can eliminate that audiobahn.

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Are you running a 2-way system, or 3-way?

Once I get my A-pillar pods built and get my Vifa TG9 3.5" mids put in, I will be corssing the tweeters over around 5-8khz. Since I only have a 2-way currently with a 6.5" mid/bass, this size driver will start to beam around 3k, possibly a little higher - this is why I have the mid'bass low passed at ~2500hz and let the tweeter takes over from there.

I haven't done too much EQ'ing on the system yet since the re-wire, or since putting in the tweeters - all I did was set the x-overs to keep things safe(what a concept). I also won't be cranking the system or straining the tweeters until I get it all dialed in.

Steven Kephart wrote:

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[QUOTE=greenbroncoguy]

BTW, what are you using to set crossover/level/alignment settings in the processor for your speakers?  Are you using some sort of measurement device to get an active response of the speakers in their mounted locations?  Or are you doing it all by ear?

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Sorry, I looked over this question in my previuos response...

For the initial setup, I will be using my ear, just to get things in the ballpark. I will have to play with phasing to start with, as I just have everything hooked up + for + now. I have already set the initial crossover settings to get things around the area they need to be, I haven't started to level match yet, I just set the sensitivity/volume on the DCX to keep the noise down, then I'll make any minor level adjustments with the amp gains(cutting the loudest drivers). For T/A I will be measuring all the drivers out and doing the math to get my milliseconds of delay and see how that sounds before tweeking.

Then I may take it and have it RTA'd to find any obvious trouble spots, do some EQ'ing to flatten that out a little, then I will continue on from there by ear some more for the final EQ and level match..

I don't really believe in doing the final tuning by RTA, as what humans will hear as flat will not be the same as what the equipment reads as flat.  I am not goign to be competing in SQ competitions, and I want my system to sound good to people(me in particular).

Not that I am by any means an expert, and if any of these procedures are being done out of order or somethign is wrong, I'm all ears. This is more or less my first good system, especially one where I will be EQ'ing/using T/A to it's fullest potential...

Allright - I had a chance to poke around my car today to see what's wrong. The Eclipse amp is NOT working at all - it won't even turn on. I tried removing it and wiring it up directly to the battery - NOTHING, it's completly dead:(

But, the Audiobahn amp that the wires got shorted on still works fine:confused: . I hooked it up to the DLS's that the Eclipse amp was powering and they work great, the DCX works fine, and the Alpine H/U is ok.

What I want to know is how in the hell could what happened have messed up the Eclipse amp and not the others???