class d amplifiers

s_goodie wrote:

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beacuse im really into car stereos and alot of people ask me things on what to look at fora good class d amp and i really am not sure

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class d just means a type of input that reduces the power consumed for reproducing bass-notes - over a class a/b design they save a bunch of electricity - however, because of the way class d amps are designed, they cannot reproduce frequencies much higher than the standard octaves for a subwoofer system - this is why you don't see a "class d 4-channel" 

- well - JL's got some magic in the works but nothing yet.

sedate wrote:

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s_goodie wrote:

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beacuse im really into car stereos and alot of people ask me things on what to look at fora good class d amp and i really am not sure

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class d just means a type of input that reduces the power consumed for reproducing bass-notes - over a class a/b design they save a bunch of electricity - however, because of the way class d amps are designed, they cannot reproduce frequencies much higher than the standard octaves for a subwoofer system - this is why you don't see a "class d 4-channel"
- well - JL's got some magic in the works but nothing yet.

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haemphyst wrote:

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sedate wrote:

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s_goodie wrote:

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beacuse im really into car stereos and alot of people ask me things on what to look at fora good class d amp and i really am not sure

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class d just means a type of input that reduces the power consumed for reproducing bass-notes - over a class a/b design they save a bunch of electricity - however, because of the way class d amps are designed, they cannot reproduce frequencies much higher than the standard octaves for a subwoofer system - this is why you don't see a "class d 4-channel"
- well - JL's got some magic in the works but nothing yet.

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I really hope that you are kidding with that answer...

Class D is ANY group of amplifier (including Tri-Path, Class "T", and ICEPower) that uses a full rail-voltage swing, between off and on, in a high frequency PWM method (some amplifiers, up to 350,000 pulses per second ) to drive the speaker cone. While the Tri-Path and the ICEPower use PWM, they adjust the output frequency dynamically, based on the analog frequency. This is claimed to allow for a more effective damping ratio. The reason for the efficiency ratings that you see, is because the output devices are ALWAYS either fully ON, or fully OFF, therefore there is VERY minimal voltage drop (or zero, when in the "off" state) across the device, thus, very minimal heat. Alpine, Eclipse, JL, and I think even Zapco ALL offer full-range Class D amplifiers. Spectron, a home amplifier manufacturer builds full-range Class D, (and were the first to do so, IIRC) and their amplifiers are regarded as some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world today!

Class D is no longer relegated to low-frequency use.

BTW, the "D" in Class D, does NOT mean "digital". It simply happened to be the next letter in the alphabet to be used to describe the next amplifier class.

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x2.

I can tell you from personal experience that class d amps with the ICEPower chipsets are perfectly capable of reproducing the entire frequency range . I have 2 of the new Eclipse XA4000's(which are indeed fullrange class d 4 channel amps), and they are currently pushing my DLS midbasses and Focal tweeters(freq. range of ~80hz to about 20khz) - it sounds fantastic. Class D amps are no longer limited to sub duty

-Matt

heamph wrote:

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Class D is ANY group of amplifier (including Tri-Path, Class "T", and ICEPower) that uses a full rail-voltage swing, between off and on, in a high frequency PWM method (some amplifiers, up to 350,000 pulses per second ) to drive the speaker cone. While the Tri-Path and the ICEPower use PWM, they adjust the output frequency dynamically, based on the analog frequency. This is claimed to allow for a more effective damping ratio. The reason for the efficiency ratings that you see, is because the output devices are ALWAYS either fully ON, or fully OFF, therefore there is VERY minimal voltage drop (or zero, when in the "off" state) across the device, thus, very minimal heat. Alpine, Eclipse, JL, and I think even Zapco ALL offer full-range Class D amplifiers. Spectron, a home amplifier manufacturer builds full-range Class D, (and were the first to do so, IIRC) and their amplifiers are regarded as some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world today!

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Are you trying to beat me over the head with syllabes? 

Okay look heamph - this is a fantastic explanation - admittedly much more complete than mine my sort of nibbling Best Buy-clerk-style explanation, I think we both know that the basic idea behind a class D amplifier was, and is still marketed as, a low(er)-cost, higher-efficiency amplifier for driving subwoofers.  This is changing I suppose - I don't particularly follow Alpine or Eclipse - I think both make *ugly* gear - but JL does NOT offer any full range class D amplifiers - not thier original amplifiers, not the E, A, TMA, or G series - only the upcoming HD series, due around June I believe. 

https://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=239

Anyway, I was speaking in broad generalities, responding to a generalized question about the overall state of car audio class D amplifiers.  I think if we take a look at our OP:

s_goodie wrote:

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beacuse im really into car stereos and alot of people ask me things on what to look at fora good class d amp and i really am not sure

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Is he looking for a broad explanation about what a class d amplifier is as a mainstay of car audio? 

Or a polysyllabic white paper about specialized, spendy gear which has just been released in the past few months and does NOT represent a particularly large swath of car audio installations?  Or maybe information about home gear that runs on a 120v circuit?

Could you dumb it down for us slower people and explain why class D amplifers were one relegated to subwoofer use and have very recently been expanded?  What changed?

sedate wrote:

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heamph wrote:

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Class D is ANY group of amplifier (including Tri-Path, Class "T", and ICEPower) that uses a full rail-voltage swing, between off and on, in a high frequency PWM method (some amplifiers, up to 350,000 pulses per second ) to drive the speaker cone. While the Tri-Path and the ICEPower use PWM, they adjust the output frequency dynamically, based on the analog frequency. This is claimed to allow for a more effective damping ratio. The reason for the efficiency ratings that you see, is because the output devices are ALWAYS either fully ON, or fully OFF, therefore there is VERY minimal voltage drop (or zero, when in the "off" state) across the device, thus, very minimal heat. Alpine, Eclipse, JL, and I think even Zapco ALL offer full-range Class D amplifiers. Spectron, a home amplifier manufacturer builds full-range Class D, (and were the first to do so, IIRC) and their amplifiers are regarded as some of the best sounding amplifiers in the world today!

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Are you trying to beat me over the head with syllabes? 

Okay look heamph - this is a fantastic explanation - admittedly much more complete than mine my sort of nibbling Best Buy-clerk-style explanation, I think we both know that the basic idea behind a class D amplifier was, and is still marketed as, a low(er)-cost, higher-efficiency amplifier for driving subwoofers.  This is changing I suppose - I don't particularly follow Alpine or Eclipse - I think both make *ugly* gear - but JL does NOT offer any full range class D amplifiers - not thier original amplifiers, not the E, A, TMA, or G series - only the upcoming HD series, due around June I believe. 

https://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=239

Anyway, I was speaking in broad generalities, responding to a generalized question about the overall state of car audio class D amplifiers.  I think if we take a look at our OP:

s_goodie wrote:

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beacuse im really into car stereos and alot of people ask me things on what to look at fora good class d amp and i really am not sure

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Is he looking for a broad explanation about what a class d amplifier is as a mainstay of car audio? 

Or a polysyllabic white paper about specialized, spendy gear which has just been released in the past few months and does NOT represent a particularly large swath of car audio installations?  Or maybe information about home gear that runs on a 120v circuit?

Could you dumb it down for us slower people and explain why class D amplifers were one relegated to subwoofer use and have very recently been expanded?  What changed?

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So if JL doesn't make it, it doesn't exist or isn't important? Not hardly. The only reason you were corrected is because the information you provided was false. You said, " ...because of the way class d amps are designed, they cannot reproduce frequencies much higher than the standard octaves for a subwoofer system - this is why you don't see a "class d 4-channel" . These are both false statements, as they can reproduce the entire frequency spectrum, and there are indeed 4 channel full range class d amps...

Is he looking for a broad explanation about what a class d amplifier is as a mainstay of car audio?  - Yes, but I would also assume he is looking for an accurate explaination of what a class d amplifier is, not simply a select few amplifiers that are made by manufacturers who may be lagging in coming up with or applying new technolgies(since you said JL doesn't have any of this "new fangled" full range class d stuff in their lineup, we can use their amps as an example)...

Or a polysyllabic white paper about specialized, spendy gear which has just been released in the past few months - Again, false - the Eclispe ICEPower full range class d amps have been out for years, as have the Apline's IIRC. It's not new technology, and it's actually not so "spendy" either.

Could you dumb it down for us slower people and explain why class D amplifers were one relegated to subwoofer use and have very recently been expanded?  What changed? - Well, you can certainly be caught up to the present since you have obviously been left behind in the past few years with respect to amplifier technology.  Read here to update yourself one some full range class d info. I realize the new line of Eclipse amps are extremly ugly, I have the previous generation and they look much better IMHO. But the technology involved hasn't changed that I know of, and there are a few other manufacturers out there that currently employ it in their amps.

You'll have to forgive me for butchering your post and if I come off as rude or condescending in my reply I apologize, but don't be so quick to jump on someone for making a correction that was clearly justified.

-Matt

greenbronco wrote:

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So if JL doesn't make it, it doesn't exist or isn't important? Not hardly.

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The statement was that JL offers full range class D amplifiers.  They don't.  They certainly are *marketing* full range class-D amplifiers, but they are not *offering* them.

greenbronco wrote:

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I would also assume he is looking for an accurate explaination of what a class d amplifier is,

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Which I feel we are still somewhat lacking - again, I admit that I provided a

sedate wrote:

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nibbling Best-Buy clerk style explanation

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but it seemed most appropriate given the general thrust of the OP.  Anyway, I wasn't replying to you, but since you are so smart bronco, and obviously have copious, untapped writting skills, why don't you pick up the gauntlet and

sedate wrote:

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dumb it down for us slower people and explain why class D amplifers were one relegated to subwoofer use and have very recently been expanded?  What changed?

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greenbronco wrote:

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You'll have to forgive me for butchering your post and if I come off as rude or condescending in my reply

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I do it all the time. 

greenbronco wrote:

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Well, you can certainly be caught up to the present since you have obviously been left behind in the past few years with respect to amplifier technology.  Read here to update yourself one some full range class d info.

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So you link to a commerical?  This is useful information:

https://www.ee.ucr.edu/~rlake/EE135/Class_D_amp_notes_AL.pdf

This link you provide is not.  It's a commerical - it is designed - sort of the way heamph's post came off - to throw as many large words and acronyms together to sound authoritative and not really explain anything.  When I read twenty proprietary acronyms in a web page that stopped by the marketing department before being posted - I have a hard time distilling an explanation. 

heamph - this part makes sense:

heamph wrote:

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The reason for the efficiency ratings that you see, is because the output devices are ALWAYS either fully ON, or fully OFF, therefore there is VERY minimal voltage drop (or zero, when in the "off" state) across the device, thus, very minimal heat

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Okay - so what I'd like to learn is why did this start out as a low-frequency only technology and remain so for so long?  I've read lots a stuff about why this is great technology but totally untenable for higher frequencies - admittedly some time ago.  So, I ask again, what has changed?  Are the JL's, Eclipse's, and Alpine's all using basically the same solution to this apparently solved problem? 

sedate wrote:

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greenbronco wrote:

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So if JL doesn't make it, it doesn't exist or isn't important? Not hardly.

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The statement was that JL offers full range class D amplifiers.  They don't.  They certainly are *marketing* full range class-D amplifiers, but they are not *offering* them.

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Exactly what I said; JL doesn't sell a full range class d amplifier that I know of, but again I don't folow JL products because better can be had for the money IMHO, but that's beside the point. My point was simply that; to me, it seemed as though your train of thought was that just because JL Audio does not make a full range class d amp, that they didn't exist or are not "mainstream", and this is simply not true.

sedate wrote:

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but it seemed most appropriate given the general thrust of the OP.  Anyway, I wasn't replying to you, but since you are so smart bronco, and obviously have copious, untapped writting skills, why don't you pick up the gauntlet and

sedate wrote:

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dumb it down for us slower people and explain why class D amplifers were one relegated to subwoofer use and have very recently been expanded?  What changed?

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What does it matter who you were replying to? The information you posted in your reply was WRONG and you were called on it. Now it seems you're all pussy hurt for some reason, and will have to get over it. I claim to hold no more knowledge than I actually have, and I will flat out tell you that I can not provide an explaination as to how or why class d amps do what they do. But, I do know enough to recognize incorrect(or incomplete as it were) information when I see it; especially when I use the technology in question in my own vehicle. An explaination has already been provided, if you require a a more "dumbed down" version as you called it, then go search for it - I never said I could give you one...

sedate wrote:

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greenbronco wrote:

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Well, you can certainly be caught up to the present since you have obviously been left behind in the past few years with respect to amplifier technology.  Read here to update yourself one some full range class d info.

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So you link to a commerical?  This is useful information:

https://www.ee.ucr.edu/~rlake/EE135/Class_D_amp_notes_AL.pdf

This link you provide is not.  It's a commerical - it is designed - sort of the way heamph's post came off - to throw as many large words and acronyms together to sound authoritative and not really explain anything.  When I read twenty proprietary acronyms in a web page that stopped by the marketing department before being posted - I have a hard time distilling an explanation. 

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The link I provided is all I have have access to at the moment, being that I am at work and can only view certain websites due to a lame ass internet filter. I'm sure that someone with more knowledge on the subject can fill us all in a little more on how the technology in question actually works; hopefully in a sense we can understand.

EDIT: Here is an article written on PWM power supplies and class d amps, and there is some full range info in there as well. Notice the artice was written in June of 2005, and DOES touch on the advancements in (then) current class d amplifier design and how it IS possible to create a full range class d amp. And it is in terms even you and I can understand.

sedate wrote:

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Okay - so what I'd like to learn is why did this start out as a low-frequency only technology and remain so for so long?  I've read lots a stuff about why this is great technology but totally untenable for higher frequencies - admittedly some time ago.  So, I ask again, what has changed?  Are the JL's, Eclipse's, and Alpine's all using basically the same solution to this apparently solved problem? 

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Most of your questions will be answered in the 2nd article I provided. As far as the brands using similar technology, I believe the ICE power technology was designed by a company called Bang-Olufsen, but there's no mention of the technology on their website.

-Matt

Also, just for anyone wondering about the usability/efficiency of ICEPower(actually the Eclipse XA line specifically) class d amps, you can read the thread here where a few guys had used them, some ran tweeters off of them, and a few others actually compared them to higher-end amplifiers such as those from Zapco and Arc Audio...

-Matt

greenbronco wrote:

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What does it matter who you were replying to?

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Because you admit the explanation is over your head.

greenbronco wrote:

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Here is an article written on PWM power supplies and class d amps, and there is some full range info in there as well

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Heh you posted something helpful!  And look - free of useless, proprietary acronyms like "ICE" that came from a marketing department!  Thanks bronco, I'll enjoy looking that over.

s_goodie wrote:

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YOUR ALL WAY TO DAMN CONFUSING  FORGET MY QUESTION I GUESS

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Dude.  I'm really, really sorry. 

Class D amplifiers were *originally* (have to be careful for rousing the peanut gallery) designed (as implemented in the car audio world, I know nothing of where they really came from) as a solution for high wattage amplifiers in a 12v, low voltage environment.  They are substantially more efficient - less voltage in, less heat, etc. - than other amplifiers that push your cabin speakers.  This allows weaker electrical sources - like the alternator in a car - to power high wattage subwoofers.  This is really the distinction I look for when I see "class D"

I have now learned, this has been expanded very recently - it appears by Fujitsu with thier Eclipse subsidiary first - then by Alpine and now JL.  This technology seems to hold much promise.

If I were looking at a traditional class D amplifier, look at efficiency ratings - something on the order of 80% or so I believe is a tidy number for a quality class D amplifier.  However, in terms of your OP, you generally want to select an amplifier from a quality manufacturer - Alpine, Eclipse, JL, any of the brands we've been arguing over are good places to start.

A (traditional) class-D amplifier is an amplifier that is more efficient than a traditional, full-range amplifier (class a or class a/b) and thus good for high wattage applications where input power is limited - but is restricted in that it cannot play speakers other than subwoofers.  There are a few exceptions to this definition, but I wouldn't consider them important enough to discuss - as we clearly lost you in our petty one-ups-manship.  Again, I'm sorry.

Are there specific amplifiers you are thinking of?  Could you link to them?

I'm sorry we argued all over your honest question.

Wow.

All this over a Pyramid!  Ha!

Okay - this is an extrodinary cheap amplifier and I wouldn't allow it near my car.  Honest.

It doesn't put out 4000 watts unless it is buried in dry ice and getting 20 volts. 

It isn't a class D either - is MOSFET its own classification?  I think MOSFET means the amplifier coil is integrated onto the mainboard or something... I dunno - its not class d anyway - its a full-range amp.

I mean - if you are only considering because you can get it "for really cheap" my reply would be only if "cheap" is >$40. 

I wouldn't expect much of anything out of it.

Wish I could tell ya somethin ya wanted to hear.

sedate wrote:

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greenbronco wrote:

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What does it matter who you were replying to?

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Because you admit the explanation is over your head.

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What does the fact that the first correct explaination was over my head have to do with your response being wrong and misinforming to the OP?

sedate wrote:

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greenbronco wrote:

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Here is an article written on PWM power supplies and class d amps, and there is some full range info in there as well

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Heh you posted something helpful!  And look - free of useless, proprietary acronyms like "ICE" that came from a marketing department!  Thanks bronco, I'll enjoy looking that over.

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You're welcome, seriously. If you look on the home page of that site, there are a lot more topics of discussion on there to look over that are very informing. And they're easy to understand, even for lamens such as you and me.

sedate wrote:

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s_goodie wrote:

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YOUR ALL WAY TO DAMN CONFUSING  FORGET MY QUESTION I GUESS

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Dude.  I'm really, really sorry. 

Class D amplifiers were *originally* (have to be careful for rousing the peanut gallery) designed (as implemented in the car audio world, I know nothing of where they really came from) as a solution for high wattage amplifiers in a 12v, low voltage environment.  They are substantially more efficient - less voltage in, less heat, etc. - than other amplifiers that push your cabin speakers.  This allows weaker electrical sources - like the alternator in a car - to power high wattage subwoofers.  This is really the distinction I look for when I see "class D"

I have now learned, this has been expanded very recently - it appears by Fujitsu with thier Eclipse subsidiary first - then by Alpine and now JL.  This technology seems to hold much promise.

If I were looking at a traditional class D amplifier, look at efficiency ratings - something on the order of 80% or so I believe is a tidy number for a quality class D amplifier.  However, in terms of your OP, you generally want to select an amplifier from a quality manufacturer - Alpine, Eclipse, JL, any of the brands we've been arguing over are good places to start.

A (traditional) class-D amplifier is an amplifier that is more efficient than a traditional, full-range amplifier (class a or class a/b) and thus good for high wattage applications where input power is limited - but is restricted in that it cannot play speakers other than subwoofers.  There are a few exceptions to this definition, but I wouldn't consider them important enough to discuss - as we clearly lost you in our petty one-ups-manship.  Again, I'm sorry.

Are there specific amplifiers you are thinking of?  Could you link to them?

I'm sorry we argued all over your honest question.

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Why do you continue to steer this guy away from class d amps? I don't understand how this can be so hard to wrap your head around; there's nothing wrong wth the design of full range class d amps, and they aren't that much(if any) more expensive than a regular class A or class a/b. And they are loads more efficient, which means they are less of a load on the electrical system - where does the fault lie? There are PLENTY of examples of excellent, affordable FULL RANGE CLASS D amps out there that are certainly worth mentioning.

Look, to the Op I apologize for all the ranting and raving cluttering up your thread, I really am. But if you want a complete answer to your question, follow the 2nd link I provided. The information is very simple to follow, even for someone who may not be farmiliar with amplifier design at all.

s_goodie wrote:

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yes here is a link https://www1.epinions.com/Pyramid_PB1644X_4000_Watt_4_Channel_Bridgeable_MOSFET_Amplifier_Car_Audio_Amplifier
 i have recently had an offer for this amp for really cheap and wondered if it is any good and if it is class d beacuse that is what i usually look for when puchasing an amp

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Please, please stay way the hell away from this amp. It's not even a class d as sedate mentioned, and is there is a reason it's "pretty cheap". If the amp is a class d, it will say somewhere in the description. But please look for a better brand...

s_goodie wrote:

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oh its fine no big deal i would preffer jl anayways like everyone argued about but the thing is i dont have 5000 dollars 

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You don't need $5000, or any over-priced JL Audio gear. There are several manufacturers out there that make quality equipment for much less money. Eclipse/Alpine/Kicker/ect. all make strong amps that won't cost an arm and a leg. Maybe a better option would be for you to post up your budget if you're looking for something specific and we can help you out from there(hopefully civily...). Again, I apologize for taking your thread off topic and hacking it up with bickering.

-Matt

s_goodie wrote:

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i have around 130 for an amp and ih ave 2 12inch type r"s

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I'll have to look for you when I get home tonight, as I'm still at work and can't search much. You probably should consider upping your budget a little, but I'm sure we can find something to fit. IIRC there are some Kicker refurb's on Ebay that I have heard good reviews about, but I'm not sure about the price.

-Matt

With the budget you have, you are looking at flea market type amplifiers with over exaggerated claims of out of this world power ratings. Your best bet is to wait and save up and get a QUALITY BRAND NAME amplifier and not run out and purchase the only amp that you can afford right now because you just have to have subs running. This is a effort in futility and a total waste of your money that you will never get back. Buy it once, do it right the first time. Quit looking at Kwality gear and start looking at respectable equipment.

ICEpower class D is available from Eclipse, Alpine and Pioneer and now perhaps a few others. I am one that has used these full range class D amplifiers from both Eclipse (XA series) and Pioneer (Premiere series) with stunning results. There is absolutely no need to tell a person that they will not work for a full range application at all. Are there other options, yes there may be, the trick is to know what is the right amplifier for the application.

Just to add to this parade, the confusion about Class D full range amps is completely understandable.  When switching amps were first introduced, they produced so much high frequency noise that they were really only suitable for the bass octaves, and thus the first commercially available Class D amps were dedicated subwoofer amps.  In the last few years, power supplies and filters have gotten better and IC speeds have increased to the point where the switching noise is beyond the limits of human hearing, and full-range class D appeared.

I have a very nice set of full-range Class D home audio amps (from a company called Red Dragon) that are superb sounding.  The Eclipse and Alpine Class D car audio amps are super (I have not heard the Pioneer version yet.)

As far as choosing an amp, I agree completely with the advice given by forbidden above.  Read it, follow it. 

A good place to check on what amps are comparable to others would be ampguts.com. find the amp you are looking for, & usually they will have it also listed as another. not always the case though.

$130 is a tough $$ for a decent amp. You will be looking at more entry level amps, try Interfire (IFD1000C, A1000D, IB2900 or IB2950), Crossfire, HiFonics, Zapco Iforce (at this price it will be used), Memphis PR line of amps.

I usually recommend straying away form Poweracoustik, though they have one amp that is a real powerhouse......I wanna say it is the SPL5000? (at work & cannot check ampguts myself)

There is really no reason the have to stay with Class D. For the most part Class D amps are dirtier power (usually rated at 1%thd, instead at .005 like high $ amps), usually limited to bass freqs. due to the amount of switching required for them to create higher freq. (I beleive they have to switch 4 times the freq. played....trying to remember amp 101 off the top of my head). Most of the time, folks like the ease of use of Class D amps, because of the power they make at lower ohm loads (a decent class D amp will run at 1 ohm just fine, MOST (not all) Class A/AB don't like running at 1ohm).

So, long post made even longer, good tips for choseing a class D amp:

Efficiency of 80% of greater, THD+N no greater than 1% @ rated power, 1 ohm stable, Signal to noise ratio of at least 80db's, & from a reputable brand, try for a CEA2006 rated amp

for the peanut gallery, concerning my above post.

I gave info that will help him for HIS budget. telling him about xtant (being the first to actually release a full range Class D...lol any1 remember the cigarette pack amp?) does nothing to help his current decision. listing very expensive alternatives, that are obiously above what he is prepared to spend, only makes him feel worse about not having much disposeable income.

I do not beleive we need to act like we are all knowing all seeing 12V gods in every question we answer, most of the time a short, but accurate respoce is all most posters are looking for.....LOL and with my spelling shorter answers mean less miss spelled words :)

haemphyst wrote:

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Alpine, Eclipse, JL, and I think even Zapco ALL offer full-range Class D amplifiers.

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and Lanzar  

ok i have 2 questions. if the ma audio hk802sx worth buyin? and if so i know  its .5 ohm stable. but is it brigdeable at .5 ohm and about how much watts itd get that way if possible. i want to get this amp cause i can get it for around 500 bucks maybe less new.

2 X 500W RMS @ 4-OHM STEREO

2 X 800W RMS @ 2-OHM STEREO

2 X 1400W RMS @ 1-OHM STEREO

2 X 2200W RMS @ 0.5-OHM STEREO

1 X 4400W RMS @ 1-OHM BRIDGED

if not then would the ma audio hk4000d be worth the buy for around the same price?

^^^ I would stay away from MA Audio if you can, I have tried their amps before and, to say the least, I was not impressed...

-Matt