zune or ipod output clipping?

I was just thinking the other day about clipping issues in all types of components from amps to headunits to signal processors.  Thats when i came across the question,  Do Ipods or other types of mp3 player also clip like a headunit's rca outs, when pushed passed 75 percent.  I guess it is something to ponder.  I usually listen to music through a zune connected to my headhuit.  I have to listen with the volume on the zune at 100 percent, if less there just isent enough signal being put out..  If anyone knows about this let me know thanks

I have a zune and limit the volume to 18/20. I don't want to chance sending a clipped signal.

Portable devices can clip...depending on the how the songs are transfered to the device and eq's and what not. Its just a really really small ampifier.

Like on iTunes you can raise the db level of the songs and clip the signal before it even gets to the ipod.

Yeah i kinda figured that it was possible they were possibly clipping when played at full volume.  When desiging theses products such as the zune why nate make it that they cant produce a clipped signal..  the db level shouldent be a problem as long as you use something like the Zune ware software.  All the songs are at a certain standard level.  It just seems like they should and definitly could make it so they wouldent clip without much effort....

Why 75%? That is a COMPLETELY arbitrary number, and ANY amplifer's output (yes, even an operational amplifier, such as the ones that drive an iPod or Zune's headphone jack) can be clipped. It doesn't matter WHAT the architecture of the circuit, (Class A, B, A/B, C, D, T, solid state, tube, op-amp, high-level... you name it) it is all reliant upon the voltage available to drive the output rails, and the current capacity of the amplifer. Lower impedances will demand more current from the device, and then you can run into current clipping, as well.

If you rely on 75% as your number, and if you rely COMPLETELY on that number, you wll damage something, some day. The clipping level will be determined LARGELY by the level at which the original signal was recorded, and THEN the architecture of the amplifier. If, for example, the level was recorded at an average level of 0dBVU, your output could be only safe at 50%, but if it was recorded at an average -6dBVU, (barely a noticeable difference to the ear) then you could run it all the way up, while never even thinking about clipping anything. +3dBVU (quite commonplace today, because "louder" sounds "better", right? WRONG!) and your safe level could drop drastically, introducing a clipping situation (literally) twice as fast as the 0dBVU recording.

Even if you examine the signal with a 'scope, to observe the onset of clipping, that number will only be good for THAT track, the next one might have a higher crest factor, might have been recorded slightly quieter, might have had some clipped mic signals in it when it was captured, may have been clipped during the actual recording by a heavy-handed "engineer". (A good recording engineer will know when to say when... PROPER recordings won't be clipped exept EXCEPTIONALLY rarely. Remember the comment a moment ago about "louder" sounds "better"? These are the "engineers" to which I refer.) You CANNOT know, unless you have a 'scope permanently connected, to observe each and every track.

Even THIS cannot guarantee that you will never clip your signal. If you overdrive the input stage of your head-unit, you can still have a clipped head-unit output, EASILY. Those inputs are the SAME, as in EXACTLY the same, as the input stages of your amplifer, and they, too, have a safe input voltage range, and can be overdriven to clipping.

NEVER rely on the numbers... You need to learn what clipping sounds like, and use your ear as the method of determining how loud to turn up your portable. This is generally not perfect, but once you learn to identify clipping by ear, it is FAR safer than relying on an arbitrary "number", like 75%.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

I understand what you are saying, but isent clipping present before it comes into the audible range?  Also, what should you look for when hearing a clipped signal in the very early stages of clipping?  It is easy to recognize a clipped signal when it is being severly clipped, but how can you tell when it is just it it's early stages?

ragsports wrote:

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It is easy to recognize a clipped signal when it is being severely clipped, but how can you tell when it is just it it's early stages?

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By ear you often cannot tell.  If you really want to know you'll need an O-Scope.

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EARLY onset of clipping is difficult to hear, but by the time you are reaching dangerous levels of clipping, it will be quite audible.

Like DYohn says, though, to see and know for sure, is with an o-scope.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

ok i know that using an o-scope is the only way to know for sure if your signal is clipping.  all 3 of my amp have a clip dector.  my amps are 2 infinity 311a's and one jbl px 300.4,  are the clip indicators on theses type of amps accurate?  now i know this will only measure the signal comming out of the amps and not the rest of the system.  Thanks for all in information so far!

the clip indicators on amps are not that accurate...best way is still with an oscope