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phoenix gold hookup extensive .

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=107337
Printed Date: November 27, 2022 at 1:59 AM


Topic: phoenix gold hookup extensive .

Posted By: basketthis69
Subject: phoenix gold hookup extensive .
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 6:08 PM

I have a Phoenix Gold MPS-2240 amplifier that's in good, but not great condition. Either way, it works!!! :D My situation is, after looking up the owner's manual and seeing the extreme flexibility that this amplifier has, I need some help with inductors and capacitors.
My questions are:
What is a good source to get these inductors and capacitors that I need?
What are some suggestions/advice on to-do's and not-to-do's?
Should I wire them into a "board" or wire them in-line with the speaker wire?
How resilient are these capacitors/inductors as far as bass, bumps, and longevity go?
Any help is appreciated. I want to run 10awg to all speakers. 4awg to the amp power. And, I plan to take pictures once I'm done. :)
This is close to what I want to accomplish:
posted_image

THANKS EVERYONE IN ADVANCE!! I'm really stuck right now...

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Installer for life.



Replies:

Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 6:52 PM
basketthis69 wrote:

I need some help with inductors and capacitors.



A quick word about using capacitors... unless you're building a magnetic igniter system for a high wattage lamp, don't make it a first thought.

Inductor wise, I'm trying to decide what you want to use them for. There are thousands of types of inductors, from various forms of line filters, to magnetic isolator systems... I can think of a billion ways to use inductors, most for filtering purposes. What has you thinking you need these, and where?

Your concern for a capacitor is slightly misguided. It will not help your power supply issues. See the Upgrading the Big Three post concerning how to upgrade your charging system, giving you a better power run to this amplifier.

Are you dead set on using this one amp to power EVERYTHING in your car?

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:22 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

basketthis69 wrote:

I need some help with inductors and capacitors.



A quick word about using capacitors... unless you're building a magnetic igniter system for a high wattage lamp, don't make it a first thought.

Inductor wise, I'm trying to decide what you want to use them for. There are thousands of types of inductors, from various forms of line filters, to magnetic isolator systems... I can think of a billion ways to use inductors, most for filtering purposes. What has you thinking you need these, and where?

Your concern for a capacitor is slightly misguided. It will not help your power supply issues. See the Upgrading the Big Three post concerning how to upgrade your charging system, giving you a better power run to this amplifier.

Are you dead set on using this one amp to power EVERYTHING in your car?


Thanks for the quick reply!
The thing that got me thinking that I was going to need inductors and capacitors was the actual owner's manual for the amplifier itself. I have used "bass blockers" or passive crossovers before, but never have I had to build them (or put them together) from scratch... Have a look for yourself and tell me what you think.

Original owner's manual:
ftp://www.rodinaudio.com/Phoenix%20Gold%20Mobile%20Audio/Manuals/Amplifiers/MPS2240%20manual,%20full.PDF

After reading the whole manual, yes, I became intrigued by the idea that I could run my whole system off of this two channel amplifier. I like to do this type of things in my vehicle to make it original. My first idea was to buy a 4-channel amp that would fit under my passenger seat and a small sub amp (either mono or 2-channel) and mount it to the rear seat. If I can accomplish all of this with this one amplifier, then that is what I would rather do. It would actually be perfect!! Anymore suggestions or comments are welcome!!

-------------
Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:23 PM
EDIT: I'm not looking to upgrade my charging system. That's already covered. posted_image

-------------
Installer for life.




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Okay, that's what I figured you were wanting to do.

I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you do this everyday (and by do this everyday, I mean build circuits)it may be in your better interest to simply buy two good amps and go that route.

Powering everything from one amp can be a really tricky thing as you have to balance out your ohm load across the left and right side. Too much resistance on one set of rails versus another could spell disaster in various forms quickly.

But, let me give you somethings to chew on for a while. To the left of the screen there's 75 internal links (Yes I counted) to various parts of this website. There is literature there regarding various forms of crossovers, both active and passive.

If you decide to take the one amp approach, take your time, and ask lots of questions here. You want to get it right the first time. You could buy the crossovers and things from various manufacturers, you could build them yourself, there's various ways to hook up the speakers that will alter you resistance present to the amplifier, which will affect the performance dramatically. (.16 ohm and 16 ohms cause two VERY DIFFERENT reactions from amplification circuitry)

If you wanna do it quick and simple, get two separate amps and perhaps make this venture a hobby for later completion.

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:35 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

Okay, that's what I figured you were wanting to do.

I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you do this everyday (and by do this everyday, I mean build circuits)it may be in your better interest to simply buy two good amps and go that route.

Powering everything from one amp can be a really tricky thing as you have to balance out your ohm load across the left and right side. Too much resistance on one set of rails versus another could spell disaster in various forms quickly.

But, let me give you somethings to chew on for a while. To the left of the screen there's 75 internal links (Yes I counted) to various parts of this website. There is literature there regarding various forms of crossovers, both active and passive.

If you decide to take the one amp approach, take your time, and ask lots of questions here. You want to get it right the first time. You could buy the crossovers and things from various manufacturers, you could build them yourself, there's various ways to hook up the speakers that will alter you resistance present to the amplifier, which will affect the performance dramatically. (.16 ohm and 16 ohms cause two VERY DIFFERENT reactions from amplification circuitry)

If you wanna do it quick and simple, get two separate amps and perhaps make this venture a hobby for later completion.


Though what I said holds true, I'm actually curious about varying ohm loads across bridged rails like this... DYohn, Haemphyst, 12volt, Jeff Chilcott (10 other people who I have a lot of respect for)... anyone?

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:44 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

Okay, that's what I figured you were wanting to do.

I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you do this everyday (and by do this everyday, I mean build circuits)it may be in your better interest to simply buy two good amps and go that route.

Powering everything from one amp can be a really tricky thing as you have to balance out your ohm load across the left and right side. Too much resistance on one set of rails versus another could spell disaster in various forms quickly.

But, let me give you somethings to chew on for a while. To the left of the screen there's 75 internal links (Yes I counted) to various parts of this website. There is literature there regarding various forms of crossovers, both active and passive.

If you decide to take the one amp approach, take your time, and ask lots of questions here. You want to get it right the first time. You could buy the crossovers and things from various manufacturers, you could build them yourself, there's various ways to hook up the speakers that will alter you resistance present to the amplifier, which will affect the performance dramatically. (.16 ohm and 16 ohms cause two VERY DIFFERENT reactions from amplification circuitry)

If you wanna do it quick and simple, get two separate amps and perhaps make this venture a hobby for later completion.


I've done all types of installs and my ohm's law, relays, and electrical are all very well versed. I've even dabbled in potentiometers. Just never had this situation. I want to "make sure I do it right the first time". Trust me, wiring in series versus parallel is not my question here. It's more of where I can find a good source for the type of inductors and capacitors that I would need for this type of circuit. And, yes, another question is whether I'd be using a circuit board or wiring in-line with the wire.

I understand the MAJOR difference in 1 ohm and 10 ohm. This amplifier was built to handle .5 ohm in mono and 1 ohm in stereo. I want to use this amplifier for the type of circuit that is demonstrated in the owner's manual. I have never seen a inductor sold by itself. I am just asking if maybe someone else out there can point me in the right direction in acquiring these supplies so that I can get started, preferably someone who has wired a system like this so that they may be able to give some insight on certain situations to avoid and what not. Thanks again.

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Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:45 PM
err... vice versa on the stereo versus bridged ohm load posted_image

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Installer for life.




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 7:49 PM
oooOOOOOOoooooo posted_image Well then, outstanding!Completely ignore everything I said except take your time, lol.

Components dealers...

www.newark.com
www.jameco.com
www.digikey.com
www.mouser.com

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:01 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

oooOOOOOOoooooo posted_image Well then, outstanding!Completely ignore everything I said except take your time, lol.

Components dealers...

www.newark.com
www.jameco.com
www.digikey.com
www.mouser.com


Thanks for the links! That should get me started!

See. Now my question is which ones can I wire into a 10 gauge wire and not restrict flow. Most of the capacitors/inductors that I see on those sites are very thin wire like 18 gauge.

And, still, whether to do a board or wire in-line. posted_image

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Installer for life.




Posted By: audiocableguy
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:03 PM
"A quick word about using capacitors... unless you're building a magnetic igniter system for a high wattage lamp, don't make it a first thought.
Inductor wise, I'm trying to decide what you want to use them for. There are thousands of types of inductors, from various forms of line filters, to magnetic isolator systems... I can think of a billion ways to use inductors, most for filtering purposes. What has you thinking you need these, and where?
Your concern for a capacitor is slightly misguided. It will not help your power supply issues. See the Upgrading the Big Three post concerning how to upgrade your charging system, giving you a better power run to this amplifier."

Where in the hell did any of this come from???


"www.newark.com www.jameco.com www.digikey.com www.mouser.com"
The only thing you will find from any of these are resistors, very overpriced I might add.

You want Partsexpress, Madisound, Speaker City, Solen. You are quite correct to want help from Dyohn, Heamphyst, Jeff.

Ditch the 10 AWG, not going to do you any good. Waste of money, pain in the ass to solder/crimp and it bitch to get into the doors.
_________________






Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Well, me being the nerd I am would build some stupid huge project box full of LED's for no real reason other than it looks cool :)

Look at the current pass ratings for everything and go from there, it's just a matter of filling in the pie chart before you find something. If you get realll deep in Newark you will probably find some good stuff. There's a European distributor who I can't think of the site of the top of myhead that carries more "Industrial Size" components, like 10 Watt+ resistors and such... I'll post them if I can remember their name.

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:08 PM
audiocableguy wrote:

"A quick word about using capacitors... unless you're building a magnetic igniter system for a high wattage lamp, don't make it a first thought.
Inductor wise, I'm trying to decide what you want to use them for. There are thousands of types of inductors, from various forms of line filters, to magnetic isolator systems... I can think of a billion ways to use inductors, most for filtering purposes. What has you thinking you need these, and where?
Your concern for a capacitor is slightly misguided. It will not help your power supply issues. See the Upgrading the Big Three post concerning how to upgrade your charging system, giving you a better power run to this amplifier."

Where in the hell did any of this come from???


"www.newark.com www.jameco.com www.digikey.com www.mouser.com"
The only thing you will find from any of these are resistors, very overpriced I might add.

You want Partsexpress, Madisound, Speaker City, Solen. You are quite correct to want help from Dyohn, Heamphyst, Jeff.

Ditch the 10 AWG, not going to do you any good. Waste of money, pain in the ass to solder/crimp and it bitch to get into the doors.
_________________





It came from me not initially understanding what he wanted, and responding before I thought a little more on it. And there's much more to be had from those sites, but yeah, resistors and transformers there are kinda over priced. Insert Radioshack. I also wanted their help because I had ventured off in my head to a palce of curiosity actually wondering about things that wouldn't help him at all, so off my back you go.

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:10 PM
audiocableguy wrote:


You want Partsexpress, Madisound, Speaker City, Solen. You are quite correct to want help from Dyohn, Heamphyst, Jeff.

Ditch the 10 AWG, not going to do you any good. Waste of money, pain in the ass to solder/crimp and it bitch to get into the doors.
_________________




LOL! Thanks for more resources! posted_image

What speaker wire size would you suggest? That is what Phoenix Gold is recommending. Would you say 16awg?

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Installer for life.




Posted By: audiocableguy
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:19 PM
16 or 14 AWG is fine for speaker wire. When you buy inductors use air core and use 14 AWG min. Caps, spend the money on the MetalPoly. The Dayton stuff at Partsexpress is fine.

I like to mount passives in the rear somewhere.
Run a home run from each speaker back to the board. This way you can experiment easily without taking the doors apart later. The values you are going to need are off the shelf parts. You don't need anything industrial.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:38 PM
audiocableguy wrote:

16 or 14 AWG is fine for speaker wire. When you buy inductors use air core and use 14 AWG min. Caps, spend the money on the MetalPoly. The Dayton stuff at Partsexpress is fine.

I like to mount passives in the rear somewhere.
Run a home run from each speaker back to the board. This way you can experiment easily without taking the doors apart later. The values you are going to need are off the shelf parts. You don't need anything industrial.


Thanks again!
Now, you've got me thinking the bottom side of the rear deck for the passives. posted_image And, the capacitors behind the speaker close to the terminals?

After looking at the Partsexpress site, I see the in-line crossovers but can't seem to find the smaller caps that I would need. I see an 80Hz High Pass 8 Ohm crossover for example. Does that mean it is meant to be hooked up to an 8 Ohm speaker and the 4 ohm is for a 4 ohm speaker and so on?

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Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:45 PM
Found them!! You mean "Dayton Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors"?

Thanks guys! You guys are great!! I'm sure this will take me a while to get all together, but trust me you guys will know the progress! posted_image I definitely know who to go to for guidance! I really appreciate the answers and resources.

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Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 09, 2008 at 8:51 PM
LOL! One more question... It states on the Phoenix Gold manual that I should use only bi-polar capacitors. Are those bi-polar or would the ones that say bi-polar be the only ones that are?

I'll stop asking questions for at least a couple of hours from now. LOL. I promise.

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Installer for life.




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 12:48 AM

Wow, this thread went to the moon and then back.

Ignore all the discussion concerning electronic power circuit design and references to Mouser or Digikey.  What your graphic illustrates is a passive crossover network.  Assembling this is not something that can just be thrown together, it requires quite a bit of knowledge and experimentation to get it right.  If what you want to do is experiment and play around and learn, go for it.  But unless you have the proper experience, getting one to sound right the first time usually requires a lot of luck.

Using the amplifier like that is called Tri-Mode, by the way, and there are pre-made crossovers for that purpose if you want to try it.  What speakers are you trying to use?  That is necessary information to design your own custom crossover.



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Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:25 AM
I am planning on going with kicker components in the front. 3-way 6x9's in the rear. The KS series. I think they're 4 ohm.... I also have a set of 3 inch Alpine type-s that I'm going to replace my dash speakers with. I know that the component set will come with crossovers. I'll just use those for the front doors. But I will need the other crossovers for the dash speakers, rear deck, and sub. Am I right about the way the crossover matches up with ohm load?


I was planning on using 100-120Hz high pass for the front dash speakers.
100Hz high pass for the rear deck 6x9s.
80Hz low pass for the sub.
All with respective ohm loads of course!

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Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 10:47 AM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

If you wanna do it quick and simple, get two separate amps and perhaps make this venture a hobby for later completion.


To respond to this comment (and a little history on what's going on here), I had a brand new a/d/s/ p650.2 that I was running my whole system with previously. I loved it. I really want to try something different and a little more hands on i.e. installing my own crossover circuits from full-range outputs. The a/d/s/ came with 6-channel output with high and low pass for the front (1&2) and rear (3&4) and low pass for the sub (5&6). I was running mb quart 6 1/2" in the front with separate tweeters so the front was loud posted_image. I had some 3-way 6 1/2" pioneers in the rear. And, for the sub, I was running a Viper (directed) 10" in a vented box. All was running on a 4 gauge power wire and off of a Premier series deck. So, that's just what I could piece together for my Integra. I recently sold the Integra and purchased a Lexus. Now, I want to see if I can step up the difficulty level for this install. I still have the a/d/s/. I think I'm going to frame it and hang it on my wall posted_image LOL! I don't know if I could ever part with that thing after seeing what it could do. I am interested to see what this Phoenix Gold can do and maybe it'll fill a frame on my wall someday too!

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Installer for life.




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:24 AM

basketthis69 wrote:

I am planning on going with kicker components in the front. 3-way 6x9's in the rear. The KS series. I think they're 4 ohm.... I also have a set of 3 inch Alpine type-s that I'm going to replace my dash speakers with. I know that the component set will come with crossovers. I'll just use those for the front doors. But I will need the other crossovers for the dash speakers, rear deck, and sub. Am I right about the way the crossover matches up with ohm load?

I was planning on using 100-120Hz high pass for the front dash speakers.
100Hz high pass for the rear deck 6x9s.
80Hz low pass for the sub.
All with respective ohm loads of course!

First off, the purpose of a passive crossover system is to balance the impedance load on an amplifier by "connecting" only one speaker at a time to the amplifier channel.  So as long as it is properly implemented, a passive crossover will never place less than the lowest speaker impedance on the amplifier.

Second, it is not a good plan to try to use multiple full-range speakers in the front of a vehicle, and definitely not a good -plan to try and develop a crossover to connect them together.  I suggest dumping the dash speakers and concentrate on installing a good quality set of components in your front doors.

I also suggest NOT trying to tri-amp with one amplifier.  Get a separate amplifier for your subwoofer.

And lastly, your suggested Xover points will leave a "hole" in the critical low-bass between 80Hz and 100Hz.  Match the subwoofer low pass to the main speaker high-pass.



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Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:59 AM
DYohn] wrote:

basketthis69 wrote:

I am planning on going with kicker components in the front. 3-way 6x9's in the rear. The KS series. I think they're 4 ohm.... I also have a set of 3 inch Alpine type-s that I'm going to replace my dash speakers with. I know that the component set will come with crossovers. I'll just use those for the front doors. But I will need the other crossovers for the dash speakers, rear deck, and sub. Am I right about the way the crossover matches up with ohm load?


I was planning on using 100-120Hz high pass for the front dash speakers.
100Hz high pass for the rear deck 6x9s.
80Hz low pass for the sub.
All with respective ohm loads of course!

First off, the purpose of a passive crossover system is to balance the impedance load on an amplifier by "connecting" only one speaker at a time to the amplifier channel. So as long as it is properly implemented, a passive crossover will never place less than the lowest speaker impedance on the amplifier.

Second, it is not a good plan to try to use multiple full-range speakers in the front of a vehicle, and definitely not a good -plan to try and develop a crossover to connect them together. I suggest dumping the dash speakers and concentrate on installing a good quality set of components in your front doors.

I also suggest NOT trying to tri-amp with one amplifier. Get a separate amplifier for your subwoofer.

And lastly, your suggested Xover points will leave a "hole" in the critical low-bass between 80Hz and 100Hz. Match the subwoofer low pass to the main speaker high-pass.





Thanks DYohn and audio!! These replies are helping alot!!
Okay. I know that this is just reiterating what you just said, but I want to make sure that you are suggesting to not replace the factory dash speakers and just leave them unhooked? I was thinking, theoretically, looking at the diagram and seeing that they have hooked a total of 4 speakers to each channel (2 tweets and 2 mids), it wouldn't look any different to the amp if I were to hook up the dash speakers in-line and just do coaxials in the rear. That would give me 4 total speakers on each side... I understand what you are saying, I just want to do this if it's possible.

The only reason I want to attempt this is the diagram that I posted and furthermore the link to the Phoenix Gold site which shows you how to wire up pretty much any system off of this two channel amp. It really got me thinking. It's more of an experiment and if it doesn't sound like I want it to, I can always throw in the a/d/s/. Is there a reason why you wouldn't do what the diagram has laid out? I'm curious now.

I see what you're saying about the crossovers. I wasn't sure. Would you bring the high pass down to 80Hz or would you bring the low pass up to 100Hz?
Thanks again everyone!! Any comments and suggestions are always welcome!

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Installer for life.




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Hey if you want to try it for the sake of trying it, go for it.  But remember, just because something is possible does not mean it is a good idea.  :)

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Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 4:12 PM
I would bring the lp up to 100hz. The quality of the caps and coils that you choose will make or break the result in the system. Tri-mode if done properly can work great. Sometimes it is alot of playing around with different values of components to get the desired results. If you have the time and the $ to do so, go for it and learn from it.

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Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: jmelton86
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 5:45 PM

basketthis69 wrote:

I still have the a/d/s/. I think I'm going to frame it and hang it on my wall posted_image LOL! I don't know if I could ever part with that thing after seeing what it could do. I am interested to see what this Phoenix Gold can do and maybe it'll fill a frame on my wall someday too!

Wow, these are words of a true audiophile!

Good luck, man. You've got all the right guys helping you out here!



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2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 6:06 PM
Thanks guys! I've never installed a tri-mode amplifier. I think I'm starting to understand the concept a little more after some research and some reading. You guys have definitely pointed me in the right direction and I think I'm going to give this a shot. I'm a little discouraged by some of the response I've had (including fellow installers that I work with. posted_image), but not enough to stop me from going on with it.

I still have a few questions being as I have wired bridged amps and stereo amps but never a tri-mode, bridged/stereo, at the same time and am a little curious as to what my ohm load should look like for the "mono/bridged" output on the amp and if that effects the stereo ohm load at all. In the diagram provided for example, without the sub wiring connected, the ohm load would be normal stereo output at a certain ohms with the crossovers installed. But, after adding the subs onto the outside channels, will it effect the stereo channels in a way that I would need to check the ohm load in a certain way or does the amplifier see it as three separate outputs (if you look at it as stereo (2) and mono (1))? I am trying to look more into understanding how the amp identifies the different outputs and how it distinguishes between them and whether it "combines" the ohm loads when the sub is added into the equation. If anyone can give me some insight into that, it would help alot.

I do need help with the crossovers that I will be using as Phoenix Gold is recommending that I use 12db slope crossover on every speaker. I know that the component set that I am purchasing is coming with an 18db slope crossover "box". Should I just wire in my own "new" crossovers at 12db slope for the right frequency? That's what I'm considering after reading the owner's manual where it states, (from the link in one of my posts on the first page) "...6db and 18db per octave crossover slopes don't short because they are 'in phase.' However, 6db slopes don't filter the frequencies outside the passed band effectively, and 18db slopes can be cumbersome if not ineffective because the slope varies according to the speaker's impedance. No speakers impedence is a flat 4(ohm) across its frequency range, which means your crossover will not have the slope you expect it to have at a given frequency. In real-world terms that means you have no way of predicting what your crossover slopes will actually look like."
All of that to explain why not to use 6 or 18db crossovers which makes me want to use 12db crossovers.
And, about the 12db slope crossover, "...A 12db per octave crossover (an inductor and capacitor for each speaker) forms a series resonant circuit to ground whose impedance at a particular resonance frequency is determined by the speaker's dynamic impedance at that frequency. If the speaker circuit, for whatever reason, becomes "open" or disconnected, the crossover impedance is theoretically zero (0)--a direct short. Most amplifiers do not like to see this condition, but Phoenix Gold amplifiers are designed to withstand this type of treatment and allow you to use an easy-to-control 12db slope."

So after all of that being said, does a 12db 100Hz low-pass filter have an ohm load of 4 already or does the amp see the ohm load from the actual speaker, or is it all combined making 2 ohms? This is what I really need to figure out before buying my speakers and, yes, after reading all of that I couldn't find the answer!! LOL!!

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Installer for life.




Posted By: jmelton86
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 6:16 PM

The amp should be ran at 4ohms, stereo (dash/door speakers) and 8ohms bridged (sub).

This totals out to 2ohms per channel.

I don't know how, I just know I ran tri-mode (most 2channels are tri-mode capable, BTW) a while ago, and had to do the research.



-------------
2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 7:07 PM

I remember a time being gung ho about  working up a tri-mode setup...get everything I can get out of that one amp, ya know?  But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits.  Is yours the very last available amplifier in the world?  Then, if it is the only amplifier there is, you have to squeeze whatever you can out of it.  But it's not, so....

Check out the information on www.bcae1.com, scrolling down to Tri-Mode speaker hookup and then following the link to Tri-Mode Power.  After finding out exactly how it actually works, you'll come to a part "Losing Headroom in a Tri-Mode Operation".  Study that, and then decide if it is so worth it to not have to use a separate mono amp for the sub.



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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:01 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

Though what I said holds true, I'm actually curious about varying ohm loads across bridged rails like this... DYohn, Haemphyst, 12volt, Jeff Chilcott (10 other people who I have a lot of respect for)... anyone?

I *totally* missed this thread! Sorry! It's actually quite simple: We'll take the tweeter, first. Above the high-pass crossover point, the amplifier sees the nominal load of the tweeter, 4 ohms or 6 ohms, whatever.

Between the mid-range low-pass, and the mid-range high-pass, the amplifier sees the nominal impedance of the midrange driver, whatever it may be.

Below the woofer's low-pass, the amplifier sees the woofer's nominal impedance.

The bridged subwoofer load is treated just as any other bridged load. Two 4 ohm woofers, wired in series, bridged, presents a nominal 4 ohm load on the amplifier channels.

Outside of the tweeter's passband, the impedance is "infinite". A 4 ohm midrange, 4 ohm woofer, and 4 ohm subwoofer load in parallel with "infinite" is (for all intents and purposes) 4 ohms. The same rule applies with all of the other driver sets within the full range spectrum. If ALL of your drivers are 4 ohms, and they are all passed correctly, the net load on the amp, FULL RANGE is 4 ohms.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:20 PM
stevdart wrote:

I remember a time being gung ho about  working up a tri-mode setup...get everything I can get out of that one amp, ya know?  But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits.  Is yours the very last available amplifier in the world?  Then, if it is the only amplifier there is, you have to squeeze whatever you can out of it.  But it's not, so....

Check out the information on www.bcae1.com, scrolling down to Tri-Mode speaker hookup and then following the link to Tri-Mode Power.  After finding out exactly how it actually works, you'll come to a part "Losing Headroom in a Tri-Mode Operation".  Study that, and then decide if it is so worth it to not have to use a separate mono amp for the sub.





Great info! Great site! Thanks a bunch!
I definitely have a greater perspective of the whole tri-mode setup now. At first I wasn't sure if you were trying to convince me to not try it or to just give me information. If it weren't for the comment "But it has drawbacks that cannot outweigh the benefits." I wouldn't have known. LOL! I definitely see what you're saying.
This definitely explains it all:
posted_image

Is there no way to prevent that without pre-amp electronic crossovers? I think that I am now leaning toward going back to my 6-channel a/d/s/ or a dual-amp setup. From what I get from it, there is no way to prevent losing headroom. Why would Phoenix Gold lead you to believe that this was a possible setup if it were prone to problems and wasn't tested to be stable?

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Installer for life.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 8:27 PM
haemphyst wrote:

I *totally* missed this thread! Sorry! It's actually quite simple: We'll take the tweeter, first. Above the high-pass crossover point, the amplifier sees the nominal load of the tweeter, 4 ohms or 6 ohms, whatever.

Between the mid-range low-pass, and the mid-range high-pass, the amplifier sees the nominal impedance of the midrange driver, whatever it may be.

Below the woofer's low-pass, the amplifier sees the woofer's nominal impedance.

The bridged subwoofer load is treated just as any other bridged load. Two 4 ohm woofers, wired in series, bridged, presents a nominal 4 ohm load on the amplifier channels.

Outside of the tweeter's passband, the impedance is "infinite". A 4 ohm midrange, 4 ohm woofer, and 4 ohm subwoofer load in parallel with "infinite" is (for all intents and purposes) 4 ohms. The same rule applies with all of the other driver sets within the full range spectrum. If ALL of your drivers are 4 ohms, and they are all passed correctly, the net load on the amp, FULL RANGE is 4 ohms.


LOL! I was typing my post as you posted. LOL! So, let me ask you this. Would it be stable with the 4 ohm load that you gave as an example even without the headroom? I like to listen to my music loud. I am not looking to have alot of bass or too much highs, but just an all-around sound. I was under the impression that this amp could power my subwoofer and all of my door speakers with no problem and it could be LOUD.

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Installer for life.




Posted By: jmelton86
Date Posted: September 10, 2008 at 11:39 PM

Phoenix Gold advertises the Tri-mode setup simple to attract more customers. It makes people think, 'whoa, i can power all my speakers with a 2channel amp! I'll take it.'

They don't realize how much (needs to) goes into the crossover design.



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2013 Kia Rio -90a alternator
DDX470HD GTO14001 GTO1014D (x3)
Big3 in 1/0G
1/0G to GTO14001




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: September 11, 2008 at 6:02 AM

I stumbled on my wording.  The drawbacks of tri-mode DO outweigh any benefits that you get from using it.  It may get as loud as you like to listen, but the musical peaks are likely to be clipped.  The dynamic range is thus diminished and the speakers are heat stressed, to boot.

The cost of power in car audio is relatively cheap (read through Steven Kephart's posts).  Simplify the setup and provide plenty of clean power for best sound and longest life.



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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 11, 2008 at 10:01 AM
THANKS GUYS FOR ALL OF THE RESPONSES!!

So, after weighing the benefits and drawbacks, I'm not quite sure which way I should go. Some more reading/research (and the last two comments) have me leaning toward a two amp setup. I really want to believe that this Phoenix Gold will do what they claim and that I will have no problems. I see the type of time and investment that it will take and I'm starting to think that it will be more beneficial for me to run a 4-channel and a 2/mono-channel.

My main thing was a new level of difficulty in dealing with 12db "hardwired" crossovers and multiple speakers into two channels (tri-mode). I was also under the impression that I would have great, if not better sound quality than if I were to run for example an Alpine amp. I was really convinced that this was going to be my only amp.
If anyone knows any added benefits to running tri-mode please let me know. For now, I have been swayed and will probably be going with the normal two amp setup. My a/d/s/ will stay in the box for now posted_image. I may use the Phoenix Gold to power one 10" L5 Kicker sub.

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Installer for life.




Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 11, 2008 at 12:40 PM

Like I tried to say from the beginning, I do not recommend tri-mode setups as they are almost always disappointing.  If you want to give it a shot, however, go for it.  It's your money, your time, your system.  If you want to play around and learn something give it a shot, no harm no foul as long as you don't blow up the amplifier or the speakers.  If however you really want the best possible sound, then dump the idea of using tri-mode.  In fact, dump that Kleenex Gold amp and put your a/d/s back in as it is a far better amp.  And don't use tri-mode. 

Did I mention not to use tri-mode?  posted_image



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Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 11, 2008 at 3:11 PM
On the other side of the coin, (and I do mean this literally) one of the very best sounding systems I heard early on in my budding audiophile career was a single amplifier... A Soundstream ClassA 100, I believe it was... This was a tri-mode, 4-way setup, and I thought it sounded absolutely fantastic! Three way doors with a single 12. There was nothing in imaging like what I presently have, but for the fact that it is impossible to add any kind of DSP to a passively run system, it was pretty darn convincing.

It was a manufacturer's car, so there WASN'T a shortage of cash flow for the project, the drivers were all timbre matched, sensitivity matched, VERY properly installed, and the crossovers were MASSIVE, and they had about 1200 parts in 'em, between the pair! (That might be a slight exaggeration.) It was ABSOLUTELY a system that *even I* would have been happy to have permanently installed in my car. While the expense is outrageous, the payoff can be FANTASTIC! It can be done, and as DYohn says, "If you want to give it a shot, however, go for it. It's your money, your time, your system". You'll never know until you try!

Did ANYBODY mention the difficulty of doing tri-mode properly?

DYohn] wrote:

id I mention not to use tri-mode? posted_image

I will have to agree in this case. It can be done, but it is tough. Run the doors off the a/d/s/, and use the "Kleenex Gold" for the subs.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: basketthis69
Date Posted: September 11, 2008 at 6:59 PM
Thanks for everything you guys have put into this post whether it was to convince me 'to do or not to do'. I'm going to run it to the sub and try to find a decent 4-channel amp for my highs. Preferably an Alpine. The a/d/s/ stays in it's home for now. Even though, it might not be a bad idea........ eventually....

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Installer for life.





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