changing to sq set up

I am looking to rebuild my Navi to a more SQ style set up. Im not wanting to try and win any Usaci SQ events but what a more true SQ style sound.The plan as of now is to replace the 2 Kicker L7 15s on 2 ZX1000.1s with 4 10 inch alpine type R's I will power them with around 1000 rms. I have yet to model the box yet so any input there would  help weather to go ported or sealed as i hear i can have a pretty flat response with either. My main concern is with getting the front stage up to par. Right now I have Kicker RS65.2 components up front off a Kicker ZX150.2. I mounted the 6.5s driver in the stock location and tweeter also in the stock tweeter pod. I am going to need quite a bit more staging than that. The problems with this is the seats block most of any useable space on the doors to add extra drivers. My only real options are to try and add a 2nd set of components or at least a mid bass to the door, kick panels on the floor(not ideal for SQ i would think) and/or something mounted at the A-pillar. Im thinking something in the range of 1000 watts rms up front will be needed to set the stage correctly.

Mods to the vehical- 2 runs of 1/0, Xstatic model 2000 Batt under the hood, Xstatic 800 series batt rear, Xstatic power pac(35 farad cap w/ 600 series batt built in), Iraggi 260 amp alt, big 3 of course and around 300 sq foot of dynamat.

About the only thing i plan on keeping system wise is the Kenwood ddx812 head unit. as well as the mods above.

My main questions are with my sub choice and power. What can i do to try and get the front stage up to par, power wise and speaker wise? I know how to do loud. SPl is like second nature to me. Box design i have a really good grasp on. But going to a more true SQ stage i am...... Well lost to say the least.

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BTW its a 2005 Navigator. the one in my sig

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Some notes on front stage based on your opening comments: 

• Use only one set of components
• 2-way is much easier to work with than 3-way
• OEM door locations, with lots and lots of damping applied, are best for the bass
• Silk tweeters sound more realistic than metal
• Tweeters pods should be either rotatable or positoned after much testing, and placed very close to the mid/bass driver
• 200 watts is plenty

As far as sub goes, choose a model known for its musicality.  It's modeled curve should be -6db / octave, which can't be achieved with a vented enclosure (more like -12db/oct.).  So the sub should be designed for sealed.

The above commentary does not necessarily represent that of management or other organizational entities.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

I have 4 layers of dampening on my doors. two on the outside skin and two on the inside skin. The Kicker rs65.2s i have in the doors now lack any real mid range bass to pick up from any reasonable cut from the subs. Im sure this is the speakers them self. Any suggestions on components that will fill the void? Diamond audio used to be good from what i have heard from Sq orianted guys. Still up to par? Any others i should know about?

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Hmmm.... Loaded question for sure. I consider myself an SQ man, in a big way, and I have to say that four 10's is way too much, IF you use a nice linear driver. The more driver surface area you have, the more linear your output will be, as your drivers won't have to move as far.

That being said, on to the front stage... THREE WAY, BABY! Put them all as close as possible, always. Steep crossover slopes are also a plus, but if going passive, they'll be more difficult to build, as well as more expensive. Two way is far more difficult to implement properly in the car due to the WAY off-axis locations. Kicks are an ABSOLUTE no-no, (as are horns) IMO. Cut the doors if you have to, but from a sound power standpoint, three-way is the way!

Silk domes (the JL silk domes are REALLY nice). A good 3 to 4 inch mid (think Vifa, Seas, (inexpensive but VERY good SQ) or Scanspeak). A nice 7 to 8 inch bass driver (think Tang Band over at partsexpress.com) 200 watts per channel is where I would start, but again, IMO, there isn't EVER enough power for the front stage, I myself have a bit over 650 watts per door, with 1100 to the 10" iso-loaded TL subwoofer.

Here's the thread...

That's about all I have for right now, but please feel free to ask questions if you have any. I *do* love to go on about it!

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

nice responses but sorry, what is SQ?

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Look twice, think thrice, 1 splice/ 1 slice!
This is a phrase i came up with and something i will now live by.

ca$ino wrote:

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nice responses but sorry, what is SQ?

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SQ = sound quality 

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ahh..gotcha, thanks.

Hey they always say, which would you rather have quality or quantity?

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Look twice, think thrice, 1 splice/ 1 slice!
This is a phrase i came up with and something i will now live by.

haemphyst wrote:

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Hmmm.... Loaded question for sure. I consider myself an SQ man, in a big way, and I have to say that four 10's is way too much, IF you use a nice linear driver. The more driver surface area you have, the more linear your output will be, as your drivers won't have to move as far.

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Would 4 10s not be a good thing then? I can surely cut volume to them with EQ and deck settings. Also i think it would look way bigger/better. Yes i want a more true SQ sound but i will also be showing in car shows and using for demo. So the 4 subs set up in a nice enclosure/install fashion would be a hit i think. As well as it would be more linear than a single sub, which would be a good thing correct?

haemphyst wrote:

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That being said, on to the front stage... THREE WAY, BABY! Put them all as close as possible, always. Steep crossover slopes are also a plus, but if going passive, they'll be more difficult to build, as well as more expensive. Two way is far more difficult to implement properly in the car due to the WAY off-axis locations. Kicks are an ABSOLUTE no-no, (as are horns) IMO. Cut the doors if you have to, but from a sound power standpoint, three-way is the way!

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There is no way i can figure  i could fit all those in the stock location which was a 6x8 opening. I can fit a 8 or 7 inch driver in the stock location though. the problem is that the seats are very close to the doors and would block anything i put rear of the stock location. The seats set very far forward and high on the doors. The tweeters have a seperate pod where the mirror is that i am using now. I could also fab a pod for a 3 to 4 inch on the a pillar if you think that could be ok or even a pod on the dash next to the a pillar. 

Im taking it that the problem i face by having more seperation in the speakers is the time delay. Is this correct? Or is there more to it than that?

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Writing from Starbucks... I hate the Starbucks mentality, but the Gold Card almost makes it worth it... Recommended. What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing.

I thought I couldn't get a three way in MY doors, as well. I drive an '01 Civic. Did you by chance see what I had to do!?!? It can be done, and if you think that it's too much trouble to get a three-way in the (relatively) HUGE doors of a Navi, I hope you won't be disappointed in a "SQ" two-way; I think you should try to find a way. It can be done, but certainly NOT with off-the shelf systems. An 8" mid-bass, matched to a tweeter? That far apart? Ewww... Can you say "suck-out"? If you can't right now, you sure will be able to! Most (but not all...) of the really high scoring systems in the comps are three-way systems for a reason.

First of all, I never said they all had to fit in the stock location... Yes, that'd be nice, but we DO live in the real world, with all of the physical space limitations inherent in solid forms, don't we? With a 3 or 4 inch mid, closely coupled to a nice, thin trim-ring tweeter, you'll be much happier with all blending you will be able to achieve... (And it'll be a smaller pod, to boot) I can think of no really good tweeter (OK, MAYBE the ScanSpeak Revelator - mmmmm Revelator... <drool> ) that'll get low enough to match to an eight, which, at it's low-pass frequency, WILL be already beaming even at Revelator high-pass capabilities... Also, at those frequencies, the power handling of the tweeter will be sorely compromised. If you already have the tweeters fabbed into mirror pods, all you have to worry about (and AFAIAC, this still isn't REALLY optimal - still too far apart) you then only have to fiddle in a mid-range! Your work is already half done!

Back to your reply opening - I was just saying four 10's might be overkill in a true SQ system. (I know... "overkill" from haemphyst?) Surface area is a good thing, yes, but are you really willing to give up that kind of volume? Wouldn't it be more impressive to use a single driver, and just rattle the fillings from your teeth with it? If you choose a really nice, high-efficiency (OK, respectable efficiency), high-power, long- throw, high-linearity woofer ala TCSounds/AudioPulse, I think you can be very happy with the results you will receive, in a well designed enclosure. Judges like originality, as well, and exotic enclosures CAN be worth points in shows. I'd never seen ANYWHERE a stuffed, iso-loaded TL... So that's what I wanted! Something never before seen... I love mine, and it IS impressive. REALLY good output, with subterranean extension... <dave smiles...> I get flat to the low 20's. My F3 is (IIRC) 19Hz! From one 10"! Output monster? Not hardly, but PLENTY loud enough for me!

That's all I have right now, but I think you should read my install thread, as well as this thread... Steven did a fantastic job with this one... He's a two-way guy; I still think three-way is the way, but I agree pretty much completely with that thread. He mentions the additional complexity of building a three-way system, but for me? It was EVER so worth it.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

 I agree 3 way plus sub more expensive but tuned properly well worth the effort............could you put some 8"s in the floor board underneath the pedals? and in the same location on the passenger side. Alot of work welding , Glassing Etc. but again well worth the effort.........And upfront bass literally, In maybe an aperiodic enclosure.I personally in my expedition like kick panel mounted mids and highs with the midbass as described above and the sub in a custom center console.........Very little time alignment adjusments needed. good luck

With a pod on the a-pillar that would put the midrange 3-4 inch right together with the tweeter. the 8 would have the seperation from those 2 with about a 12 inch seperation. After looking really hard at the doors. I can probably get them all to fit. Even very close to the stock location. Tight but it could be done. I can't  really go higher than the stock  location but i can go a bit lower and forward of the stock location. I will try and get some pics up so you can see what i mean about the doors. Yes the panel is huge. But the seats block most of the useable space of them.

As far as the subs go .  I have a good 12 cubic foot to use to still leave a bit of storage room and stay at the level of the glass. Remember i am using 2L7 15s at the moment ported in 4.5 cube per + ports right now. Giving up room is not a problem at all. the back is nice and big. As for encloser i was  thinking to go with a nice molded fiber glass with a nice amp dispay down the middle. Lot of work there. I guess maybe thats why i have been a bit resistant to the idea of cutting good doors and making my self more glass work. Maybe trying to get out easy

As for rattling teeth i am doing  153db at 48Hz  and still doing 146 ish to at 30Hz Yes i cant go as low as you. But honestly i find it hard to believe 1 10 would satisfy my tastes as this was just a listening truck/ daily driver. Yes i have heard a few 8s and 10s that would play all out. But thats not what we are talking about here. We are talking about like a Flat 120db maybe a bit more( i would like more )Yes all the way to 20hz or lower. Maybe what i need is a bit of an eye opening with a demo. No one around here does SQ anymore. So i dont have any real local support. I should have paid more attention when guys here where doing it. But at the time SPL was where it was at for me. Also i can see how if it was a flat respose playing at 120db at say 80hz and the all the way down to 20hz clear would be amazing. I think that would be amazing to hear instead of the peaky cuts im use to.

As for reading i most certainly did read your post and also about to read up on the other. Like i said when it comes to TRUE sq i am a lost dog when it comes to staging. I really appreciate the help you are giving me.

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Looking at MB Quart QSC 210 4inch component It handles up to 100rms. Anyone have any experience with them? Also Im thinking just building an a-pillar pod for the 4inch which will keep it and the tweeter very close to one another. Also so i dont have to mod the doors(just yet) i am looking at just using a 6 1/2 sub in the stock location. Will this be satisfactory? Like i have said before im not looking to compete in SQ but i want a more true SQ stage. Does this have a shot at sounding good? Right now becuase of funding and doing a big wall build in my 300c i am not going to be able to build my own crossover networks. I will have to use the ones that come with the components and amplifiers as well as utilize the EQ from my deck for now. Is this at all a good direction for now?

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