12s or 15s
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=116947
Printed Date: April 30, 2024 at 2:26 AM
Topic: 12s or 15s
Posted By: blk1990gt
Subject: 12s or 15s
Date Posted: October 13, 2009 at 10:13 PM
hi guys i am new to the12volt... love the site BTW well this is going 2 be the first of many questions to come lol i have always been a big fan of 12s and love my w3s and always thought 15s were a bit sloppy but the other day i was in a friends truck and his jl 15s sounded great so its got me thinking of going bigger i know i am ready 2 uprade and iv got it narrowed down 2 3 brands {not that narrow lol} FI JL w7 or MTX 9500 i am looking to have good SQ but also be able 2 compete on a good level also which brand and size do you guys recomend and some amps for the combo would be nice 2 sorry so long but i have just been out of the loop for about 5 years and alot has changed in that time Thanks for all the help in advance, Justin
Replies:
Posted By: cvsct698
Date Posted: October 14, 2009 at 9:22 AM
By compete, do you mean compete in SPL or compete in SQ?
Posted By: soundnsecurity
Date Posted: October 14, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Fi has my vote. JL is good too but waaaaay too pricy. and did you say you want to compete? compete in what?
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Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 14, 2009 at 7:59 PM
sorry db drag i dident even know there were SQ comps lol
Posted By: cvsct698
Date Posted: October 15, 2009 at 4:26 PM
If you're doing DB drag, cross the W7 your list now. I've got mixed feelings on Fi. It really depends on who you talk to. Some people swear by them, but I've seen quality issues with them, and from what I've seen, they also don't completely live up to their hype. MTX may be a good option, but I don't have much experience with their product. Have you considered DD?
Posted By: aznboi3644
Date Posted: October 15, 2009 at 5:01 PM
subwoofer SIZE has NOTHING to do with how "fast" or "slow" it is.
Myth - vast majority of misinformed people think larger subwoofers sound "slower" and "sloppy" because of horrible installation and setup.
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Custom Enclosure Design
Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 16, 2009 at 3:05 PM
cvsct698 wrote:
If you're doing DB drag, cross the W7 your list now. I've got mixed feelings on Fi. It really depends on who you talk to. Some people swear by them, but I've seen quality issues with them, and from what I've seen, they also don't completely live up to their hype. MTX may be a good option, but I don't have much experience with their product. Have you considered DD?
i can not find any prices on DD anywhere can some one tell me where 2 find prices? also anyone heard of DC sound lab subs? if so how are they?
Posted By: blackcivichatch
Date Posted: October 16, 2009 at 10:46 PM
aznboi3644 wrote:
subwoofer SIZE has NOTHING to do with how "fast" or "slow" it is.
Myth - vast majority of misinformed people think larger subwoofers sound "slower" and "sloppy" because of horrible installation and setup.
I'm not trying to undermind you nor challenge your knowledge so please don't be offended. But wouldn't a lager woofer be slower simply because its larger? A larger object would have more inertia; therefore its gonna take more force to get it to start and stop motion. It takes more time for a larger object to stop that a smaller object with the same force. ------------- UNLABELED Custom Car Club President
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 16, 2009 at 11:30 PM
Nope... read here...
We beat this one to death for quite some time, but it's still referred to on a semi-regular basis... ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: blackcivichatch
Date Posted: October 16, 2009 at 11:58 PM
I apologize. I'll retract my last statement. lol. jus a thought. we were Jus talkin about that in physics class today.  ------------- UNLABELED Custom Car Club President
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 17, 2009 at 12:26 AM
No apology necessary, it's a perfectly understandable misconception. With any single given, SAME SIZE voice coil and motor structure, simply attached to a larger cone, your physics class would be correct.
When manufacturers build their motors, they address the inductance, to improve the response of the cones.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 17, 2009 at 5:13 PM
so my new question now is will a biger sub be louder?
Posted By: whiterob
Date Posted: October 17, 2009 at 6:01 PM
blk1990gt wrote:
so my new question now is will a biger sub be louder?
Assuming all else is the same other then the size of the subs, yes. Cone area is directly related to output so the more cone area you have the more output you have.
That does not mean all 15s will be louder then all 12s or even 8s. There a lot of factors that determine overall loudness. But in general, yes, more cone area does mean more output.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 17, 2009 at 7:08 PM
blk1990gt wrote:
so my new question now is will a biger sub be louder?
NO!!! Absolutely not. It is dependent COMPLETELY upon 1: the efficiency of the driver, and 2: the power handling of and power supplied to the driver.
If you have an 8" woofer and a 15" woofer, both rated 85dB efficient, and the 8" woofer can handle 200 watts, but the 15 can only handle 100 watts, then the 8" driver CAN play twice as loud as the 15" driver.
whiterob wrote:
Assuming all else is the same other then the size of the subs, yes. Cone area is directly related to output so the more cone area you have the more output you have.
That is simply wrong. Cone area has little to nothing to do with how loud a driver is or how loud it can play. It is motor structure that has FAR more to do with a given driver's output capability! By your logic, then there would never be ANY way that a 1" tweeter could EVER make as much noise as a 15" woofer. We all know this is not the case.
The more air you can move, yes, but that IS NOT ANY INDICATION of how loud a driver will play, rather an indication of how DEEP that driver can play.
Nearly ANY tweeter you can lay your hands on today will have every BIT of 8 to 12dB better efficiency than any current, decent, long-throw, high power handling woofer, thus, completely blowing your theory out of the water.
:::::EDIT:::::
I knew I'd find the thread I was looking for... SPL Formula thread.------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: whiterob
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 12:14 AM
haemphyst wrote:
blk1990gt wrote:
so my new question now is will a biger sub be louder?
NO!!! Absolutely not. It is dependent COMPLETELY upon 1: the efficiency of the driver, and 2: the power handling of and power supplied to the driver.
If you have an 8" woofer and a 15" woofer, both rated 85dB efficient, and the 8" woofer can handle 200 watts, but the 15 can only handle 100 watts, then the 8" driver CAN play twice as loud as the 15" driver.
whiterob wrote:
Assuming all else is the same other then the size of the subs, yes. Cone area is directly related to output so the more cone area you have the more output you have.
That is simply wrong. Cone area has little to nothing to do with how loud a driver is or how loud it can play. It is motor structure that has FAR more to do with a given driver's output capability! By your logic, then there would never be ANY way that a 1" tweeter could EVER make as much noise as a 15" woofer. We all know this is not the case.
The more air you can move, yes, but that IS NOT ANY INDICATION of how loud a driver will play, rather an indication of how DEEP that driver can play.
Nearly ANY tweeter you can lay your hands on today will have every BIT of 8 to 12dB better efficiency than any current, decent, long-throw, high power handling woofer, thus, completely blowing your theory out of the water.
:::::EDIT:::::
I knew I'd find the thread I was looking for... SPL Formula thread.
I've always heard that every time you double the cone area you will gain 3db. I know that is a theoretical value but doesn't cone area have an effect on output? Same as every time you double the power you gain 3db (again a theoretical value).
I also may not have explained what I was meaning very well. When I said everything being the same I was implying that the subs had the same efficiency, same power handling, and all other specs being the same. I realize that this is not really a practical situation but assuming that this was true and only the cone area of the subs differed the larger sub would be slightly louder correct?
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 12:53 AM
whiterob wrote:
I've always heard that every time you double the cone area you will gain 3db. I know that is a theoretical value but doesn't cone area have an effect on output? Same as every time you double the power you gain 3db (again a theoretical value).
Yes, you are correct, that a doubling will add 3dB, but if you are starting with one woofer, 12 inches across, (hell... even 8" across...) with an Re of (for example) 87dB (typical today), and another woofer, 15" across, ALSO with an Re of 87dB, then if you double the cone area of either situation by adding a second identical driver, there will still be no difference. Just do the math...
87dB + 3dB = 90dB
That will hold true no matter the driver diameter... Notice it doesn't say "an 8 inch 87dB, plus a second 8 inch 3dB, equals a single 15 inch 90dB". (I know that's ridiculous, but you get the idea, I think...)
whiterob wrote:
I also may not have explained what I was meaning very well. When I said everything being the same I was implying that the subs had the same efficiency, same power handling, and all other specs being the same. I realize that this is not really a practical situation but assuming that this was true and only the cone area of the subs differed the larger sub would be slightly louder correct?
No. Whether it is practical or not, if they have the same efficiency (Re or "reference efficiency) and power handling, a VERY practical and possible situation, then there will be zero difference in output, no matter HOW many doublings of cone area, as long as you double the same number of times for either driver's situation. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: whiterob
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 1:58 AM
haemphyst wrote:
whiterob wrote:
I've always heard that every time you double the cone area you will gain 3db. I know that is a theoretical value but doesn't cone area have an effect on output? Same as every time you double the power you gain 3db (again a theoretical value).
Yes, you are correct, that a doubling will add 3dB, but if you are starting with one woofer, 12 inches across, (hell... even 8" across...) with an Re of (for example) 87dB (typical today), and another woofer, 15" across, ALSO with an Re of 87dB, then if you double the cone area of either situation by adding a second identical driver, there will still be no difference. Just do the math...
87dB + 3dB = 90dB
That will hold true no matter the driver diameter... Notice it doesn't say "an 8 inch 87dB, plus a second 8 inch 3dB, equals a single 15 inch 90dB". (I know that's ridiculous, but you get the idea, I think...)
whiterob wrote:
I also may not have explained what I was meaning very well. When I said everything being the same I was implying that the subs had the same efficiency, same power handling, and all other specs being the same. I realize that this is not really a practical situation but assuming that this was true and only the cone area of the subs differed the larger sub would be slightly louder correct?
No. Whether it is practical or not, if they have the same efficiency (Re or "reference efficiency) and power handling, a VERY practical and possible situation, then there will be zero difference in output, no matter HOW many doublings of cone area, as long as you double the same number of times for either driver's situation.
Lol, I just realized the mistake in my logic. I don't know what I was thinking but thanks for straightening that up for me. 
Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 8:56 PM
got yet another question for u guys so lets say i were to buy 2 dual 2 oham subs that are 2000w each can i run 4 1000w 2 oham amps 1 to each voice coil?
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 9:39 PM
Yes... (...and the word is Ohm... It's a man's name...)
Are you seriously asking questions to learn, or are you just asking questions to get your post count up?
We don't mind helping, really, but these questions are becoming a bit... ridiculous. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 18, 2009 at 10:03 PM
haemphyst wrote:
Yes... (...and the word is Ohm... It's a man's name...)
Are you seriously asking questions to learn, or are you just asking questions to get your post count up?
We don't mind helping, really, but these questions are becoming a bit... ridiculous.
i dont care about my post count! why would i? i am asking questions 2 learn because i want 2 have a nice setup and do it right i dont know whats so rediculous about thet they are honest questions sorry if i my mis'spelling of a word offended you.. now if someone who is not a jerk would like 2 give me a bit more info about my previous question I.E is this a safe method for every day use and maybe some experience with a simaler combo it would be greatly appreciated if not then no need 2 post in my thread Thanks, Justin
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: October 19, 2009 at 10:11 AM
blk1990gt wrote:
haemphyst wrote:
Yes... (...and the word is Ohm... It's a man's name...)
Are you seriously asking questions to learn, or are you just asking questions to get your post count up?
We don't mind helping, really, but these questions are becoming a bit... ridiculous.
i dont care about my post count! why would i? i am asking questions 2 learn because i want 2 have a nice setup and do it right i dont know whats so rediculous about thet they are honest questions sorry if i my mis'spelling of a word offended you.. now if someone who is not a jerk would like 2 give me a bit more info about my previous question I.E is this a safe method for every day use and maybe some experience with a simaler combo it would be greatly appreciated if not then no need 2 post in my thread Thanks, Justin
No one is being a jerk. The answer to your question is sure, go for it. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 19, 2009 at 10:38 AM
Justin...
1: I answered your question. I answered your "yes or no" question with a yes. You can run four 1000 watt at 2-ohm amplifiers to two 2000 watt DVC 2-ohm woofers. It is perfectly safe to do so.
Perhaps a bit of expansion might be necessary. I would actually recommend you search for a better amplifier combination that meets your power requirements - either a) one 4000 watt at 2-ohms amplifier or b) two 2000 watt at 1 ohm amplifiers - it would be a much easier setup and significantly less expensive option for you. Also, if not PERFECTLY setup, you won't destroy anything, but you can likely not get the expected or even hoped for result. Also, with a four amplifier, two driver setup, any destructive mismatch of two amps to one woofer chance is doubled when you double the number of woofers and amplifiers... It's far too much effort, seriously.
2: Some people just come here to ask questions, over and over... It happens. They ask a bunch of questions in a hundred different posts and a dozen different threads, truly wasting time by sometimes asking the same question(s) repeatedly, then never ask another one... As I said, none of us REALLY minds helping, if you really need the help.
3: My correction was for your edification and education, it was not because it was misspelled. It wasn't to be obnoxious, as you think I was being or doing. If you are not corrected, you'll never know you were incorrect. Take it as CONSTRUCTIVE, not destructive. Learn from it; prove to us that you are really interested in learning, as you, yourself, claim. The word Ohm is a VERY frequently used word in the car audio world, and you'll do well to WANT to know how to spell it correctly, as well as know where the word originated. Watt, Volt, Amp, Farad, and Henry are also names you'll hear and should know.
My apologies if I offended you, in these respects.
Now, (and this too is constructive and a request) 4: Please use complete words. This is not your cell phone, and you have unlimited space to make your thoughts completely clear; you are not limited to 160 characters. Nobody here cares about misspellings, we get through them, but we all try to be adults here, carrying on conversations, as if speaking to one another, not texting each other on our iPhones. Please, the internet "1337" is unnecessary. Again, I am not trying to be a "jerk" as you will undoubtedly feel I am, but this is a respected forum, it's not caraudiodomain.com, and we try to maintain this respect by maintaining adult attitudes and language. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 19, 2009 at 7:19 PM
haemphyst wrote:
Justin...
1: I answered your question. I answered your "yes or no" question with a yes. You can run four 1000 watt at 2-ohm amplifiers to two 2000 watt DVC 2-ohm woofers. It is perfectly safe to do so.
Perhaps a bit of expansion might be necessary. I would actually recommend you search for a better amplifier combination that meets your power requirements - either a) one 4000 watt at 2-ohms amplifier or b) two 2000 watt at 1 ohm amplifiers - it would be a much easier setup and significantly less expensive option for you. Also, if not PERFECTLY setup, you won't destroy anything, but you can likely not get the expected or even hoped for result. Also, with a four amplifier, two driver setup, any destructive mismatch of two amps to one woofer chance is doubled when you double the number of woofers and amplifiers... It's far too much effort, seriously.
2: Some people just come here to ask questions, over and over... It happens. They ask a bunch of questions in a hundred different posts and a dozen different threads, truly wasting time by sometimes asking the same question(s) repeatedly, then never ask another one... As I said, none of us REALLY minds helping, if you really need the help.
3: My correction was for your edification and education, it was not because it was misspelled. It wasn't to be obnoxious, as you think I was being or doing. If you are not corrected, you'll never know you were incorrect. Take it as CONSTRUCTIVE, not destructive. Learn from it; prove to us that you are really interested in learning, as you, yourself, claim. The word Ohm is a VERY frequently used word in the car audio world, and you'll do well to WANT to know how to spell it correctly, as well as know where the word originated. Watt, Volt, Amp, Farad, and Henry are also names you'll hear and should know.
My apologies if I offended you, in these respects.
Now, (and this too is constructive and a request) 4: Please use complete words. This is not your cell phone, and you have unlimited space to make your thoughts completely clear; you are not limited to 160 characters. Nobody here cares about misspellings, we get through them, but we all try to be adults here, carrying on conversations, as if speaking to one another, not texting each other on our iPhones. Please, the internet "1337" is unnecessary. Again, I am not trying to be a "jerk" as you will undoubtedly feel I am, but this is a respected forum, it's not caraudiodomain.com, and we try to maintain this respect by maintaining adult attitudes and language.
well thank you for clearing that up. i am sure you guys get alot of stupid 16 year old kids that are just dumb as hell and i guess i just kind of felt like u thought i was one of those people but trust me im not. i may not be the smartest person and trust me i will not say i am but i understand the basics. ive always had a system in my cars and even when i was a stupid 16 year old i bought nice stuff i have had 2 12w3s and a 1000.1 memphis for the past 6 years and back then doodie was not cheap plus i was 16 lol now ive out grown it so i did come here for good advise and as i stated in my first post i was gonna ask lots of question... i guess what i am truley looking for is a combo that will hit in the 150db range and still be able 2 play music and last me for the next 6 years till i get sick of it and want more, it is all going into a ext cab silverado i am a union carpenter so i will be building the box my self i just need you pros to fill in the rest i am on about a 2000$ budget is this possible thanks again and sorry for the attitude
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 21, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Hadn't dropped you, but what you want I can't help you get, so this is a bump, to see if anybody else is able to add to the quest for you.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: blackcivichatch
Date Posted: October 21, 2009 at 9:13 PM
Funky pups..... Lol. Sorry
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UNLABELED Custom Car Club President
Posted By: icearrow6
Date Posted: October 22, 2009 at 8:27 PM
hmmmm... 150dbs..... with under 2000? hmmm.
Now will you be competing with this system? Where you have to have 145+?
or is this just a wild shot in the dark.
With that small cabin 150 IS possible. But at the cost of QUALITY sound. The port setting might have to be too high and although you'll hit 150, it will sound like crap on normal music. No real, clean, and smooth bass. Unless you invest in some high end woofers (Fi audio BTL, Re audio, even JL audio) in wich case you'll have to fork about 1500 on woofers alone. Make sure you set REALISTIC goals base on YOUR budget.
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Posted By: blk1990gt
Date Posted: October 25, 2009 at 11:13 PM
icearrow6 wrote:
hmmmm... 150dbs..... with under 2000? hmmm.
Now will you be competing with this system? Where you have to have 145+?
or is this just a wild shot in the dark.
With that small cabin 150 IS possible. But at the cost of QUALITY sound. The port setting might have to be too high and although you'll hit 150, it will sound like crap on normal music. No real, clean, and smooth bass. Unless you invest in some high end woofers (Fi audio BTL, Re audio, even JL audio) in wich case you'll have to fork about 1500 on woofers alone. Make sure you set REALISTIC goals base on YOUR budget.
lol kind of a shot in the dark ive found quite a few used subs for around 500-700$ FI BTL etc etc the 2000 was for amp and subs only i have the rest
Posted By: j.reed
Date Posted: October 26, 2009 at 5:58 PM
blk1990gt wrote:
cvsct698 wrote:
If you're doing DB drag, cross the W7 your list now. I've got mixed feelings on Fi. It really depends on who you talk to. Some people swear by them, but I've seen quality issues with them, and from what I've seen, they also don't completely live up to their hype. MTX may be a good option, but I don't have much experience with their product. Have you considered DD?
i can not find any prices on DD anywhere can some one tell me where 2 find prices?
also anyone heard of DC sound lab subs? if so how are they?
DC sound labs make good spl subs. As for price on DC or DD hit up the respective manufacture sites and search for dealers near you and give them a call or email. They will be somewhat on the pricey side. A buddy of mine does 150+ in a quad cab ram with 4 DC lvl 4 15s. tuned at 40ish hz but it also is running 4 fosgate t1500's.Thats 6000watts rms. Its also a blow through. Just to get an idea of what it takes to create that kind of SPL. Then you also have to figure in electrical upgrades.
As for whether 12s or 15s are better for your application there are many, many, many variables that have not been even close to covered for anyone here to make a good call on which would be better for your particular installation.
these are just some starter questions:
1. What equipment do you own already/plan on still using?
2. What class do you intend to compete?
3. Total budget for extra equipment/installation? You say you are a carpenter. $2000 is a number you threw out there but, you may have some building materials all ready. But you may also need to upgrade electrical. Big 3, alt, and batts depending on power. ------------- 
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