kinetik marine, automotive

Hey im looking at getting the Kinetik KM-27 but I need to know if there's anything that holds people back from Making the Kinetik Marine batteries their Stereo and Cranking Battery thanks.

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I can't hear you!

I have a interstate marine deep cycle in my car. seem's to work fine. every time i hook it up to my buddy's new digital agm gel cell charger it read's 100% and it wiz's him off haha. his batt's are alway's in the 70's and 80's so her charges them all the time. I also put a redtop gel cell into the trunk of the car without a isolation relay and haven't had a problem yet.

awesome yeah The kinetik Marine Batteries seem to be cheaper than their Normal Car audio Battery yet they are suppose to be the same battery just different posts. I'm sure it'll work out thanks alot!

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rfhvhtoo wrote:

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... seem to be cheaper than their Normal Car audio Battery yet they are suppose to be the same battery ...

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LOL! As with so many "audio" labelled and "special battery" items. (Fun when you confirm the same product but at many times the price.)

Do you think The MArine Batteries Can Handle the HIGH OUTPUT alternator?

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What do you mean hi output alternator?

Unless the alternator puts out a higher voltage than the battery can tolerate, it's not a problem.

If the battery is 12V with 14.4V max charge (long term) and the alternator puts out (max) 14.4V, it doesn't matter if the alternator is 100A, 1,000A, or 10-giga Amps - it will not fry nor mis-effect the battery.

Thanks Old spark and IM starting to see that the 80AH MArine Kinetik Battery im looking at has a Marine Cranking Amp of 1050amps for the KM-24/HC1800 , and shuriken has a "Car audio" battery that is 80AH as well and saying 1900amps Cranking amps for the approximate same price. Is that accurate cranking amp rating by shuriken or just Manipulated marketing?

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Manipulated Marketing?

Don't you mean Marketing Mistake?
Maybe the interpreted their version of the HC1800 as meaning 1800CCA and a missing segment made if 1900CCA.

I'm sure others wouldn't do what a company once did here. We specified 10 year life rating so the big dude struck out his 5 and wrote 10. Alas we knew better (or found out). Besides, we knew their battery was crap.
Years later I found out from my "domestic" battery supplier that he refused to stock them - they had a 15% return rate (compared to 1% - 2% for others)!
I wish for good name of the other Greek gods that they have since improved.


But such batteries should have their ESR specified (Equiv Series Resistance - aka Internal Resistance, usually).
Their short circuit current is determined by their internal resistance, so max current is ~12.8/ESR Amps (12.8 or whatever their full Open Circuit terminal voltage is.)
Obviously a CCA cannot exceed short cct current, though I'm unsure how close it gets.... maybe 30%, or higher?


I'm assuming this is for a second battery for hi-power audio? Else why the high CCA - though I need to review CCA; I've tended not to worry about it...
(IE - best is normal battery for cranking, then 2nd low ESR battery near amps. A low ESR remote from the amps may be wasted. And their is the big-3 and alternator capacity etc etc.)

And I'll see what I can find about the above specs...
But later.... (remind me if I forget or delay...)

But others might have REAL experience with the above. (read: pls save me!) LOL. Or Odyssey or others...?

It's not claiming that its 1900 Cold Cranking Amps just Cranking Amps. I know there's a difference in those numbers. Also I am only going to run 1 battery so I will be using it for my Starting and Audio System Battery Since I have a 220 Amp HO alt. I have a truck so i really dont have much space to Put a second Battery.

Here are the kinetik Normal car audio Battery specs (below) and Cranking amps so Now im starting to think there's an actual reason for the different prices even though the Marine Kinetik KM-24 (80AH) is 1800 amps its Marine Cranking Amps is 1050. and the Kinetik Car audio HC1800 (81AH)  cranking amps is 1350amps. https://www.kinetikaudio.com/manuals/khccells.pdf

Yet the shuriken 80AH Car audio Battery is supposedly 1900 Cranking Amps. Seems like Shuriken are cheaper and Better by these numbers.

https://www.shurikenonline.com/

Thanks for the Help

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I can't hear you!

I was assuming a battery intended for audio.

Otherwise it's merely a cranking issue so whatever battery gives you the cranking power you need.

I've seen Kinetics' "More power than a cap" before and have been somewhat amused. (To me that's such a Doh! statement!)

What I note in their blurb though is (1) no figures for ESR, and (2) not comments about issues with AGMs (don't flatten and leave uncharged; don't overcharge!; and maybe thermal runaway).
And who the heck needs to check levels in modern good low-maintenance wet batteries - especially with the power-eye? (Ok, I did after 3 years, but never since - and they are now 8 years old.)

Usually an AGM has at least half the ESR of an equivalent wet cell - eg, say 4-7 versus 10-14 milliOhms aka mR.

For audio, the AGM is placed near the amps thereby negating the need for a smaller AGM (instead of a cap) near the amps and the standard battery is kept in the engine bay. They are not connected together permanently (ie not paralleled except when charging).

If the AGM instead replaces the original battery, and the cable resistance to the amp and back through ground is say 5-10mR, then that is as effective as placing a standard battery next to the amps (ie, total resistance including ESRs from each battery to the amps is the same).

The AGM in the engine bay is better than the standard battery if you have no other option, but it's somewhat wasted in comparison...


The Shuriken is simlar to the Kinetics - NO ESRs are listed. Why not?

And now I'm wondering if I saw the Kinetics on here somewhere, or was it some weeks ago in a local AutoChain shop where I also noted some other AGM battery and its AMAZING similarity to another reputable AGM - except for its terminals, and that it cost over three times as much!!! But presume it had better specs for Pulsating loads.
I have seen many things that look alike but are totally different in (production) quality. But I seem to find a lot that is the same thing but inflated with the addition of expensive bullsh.


I guess you need to decide based on why you want the CA or CCA.

I can't comment on the quality and hype of either battery, but I would expect AGMs to spec their ESR (else short circuit current) because that is often an important reason for their choice (not for vintage or collectors cars maybe, but for most others...).
I also expect AGMs to have max charge voltage and current limits, plus standing and discharge/recharge data - but the latter comes from AGM usage in UPS (Uninterruptables...)

Doesnt the power eye only monitor one cell...?

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

Well I hear that Batteries that are different will end up draining each other trying to get to their unique resting charge. Is this true?


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rfhvhtoo wrote:

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Well I hear that Batteries that are different will end up draining each other trying to get to their unique resting charge. Is this true?

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Not when charging. Hence my method.


(And FYI - the same age & batch battery but one in the boot/trunk and one in the engine bay will have differences - eg, temperature.)

tommy... wrote:

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Doesnt the power eye only monitor one cell...?

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Sorry Tommy - I didn't answer that.

Yeah - I suppose it has to since wet-cells are separated.
I guess the theory is most should be the same...

Mind you, it could explain why my Mum's battery (2004?) has had a clear eye since aged ~1 year (green - clear - red) yet the battery has been fine - the eye may be in the faulty cell....
Else maybe just a fault float-ball.
And yes, fluid levels were checked & are fine as that can cause the ball to drop as per low density electrolyte.

I did initially lol at power-eyes. What bling/wank! But it was spotting a clear window whilst over 1,000 miles from home that alerted me to a quietly slipping fan belt - before stalling in a non-push-start environment! (That was before fitting a voltmeter - in fact that prioritised the Vmeter!)

Later I found them convenient to monitor idle vehicles or batteries.   

However, they are an aid rather than a tool.
They may not be trustworthy, nor are they accurate enough for detail.
A voltmeter should indicate remaining capacity to within 10% or if overcharging - a power eye won't do that.


FYI - Recently I saw my above comment/hint about NOT paralleling even matched batteries was recently stated by some battery guru. (It's fine at first, but when the difference do start to appear, it's a downward spiral.)

And I found the new Bill Darden site at https://www.jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/ - I read some of his stuff from his former site and was very impressed. Now moved & updated, I'm impressed that we still agree - on most things. (LOL!)
See in particular his Car and Deep Cycle Battery Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) (English Version) (updated 2Jan2010) - esp. Part 9 on charging.

rfhvhtoo wrote:

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awesome yeah The kinetik Marine Batteries seem to be cheaper than their Normal Car audio Battery yet they are suppose to be the same battery just different posts. I'm sure it'll work out thanks alot!

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Reason the Kinetik Marine batteries are cheaper might have to do with the fact they may be older product as I do not see any Kinetiks on their site with the lead terminals any longer.

Also I would think having close to the same battery if not the same battery in front as in back would be a good idea because if they are not close all you will be doing is making the differences that much bigger of a difference with temprature and wire/location.

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Ack!

audiolife wrote:

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having close to the same battery if not the same battery in front as in back would be a good idea because if they are not close all you will be doing is making the differences that much bigger of a difference with temperature and wire/location

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It makes no difference since they are not in parallel except when charging.
Hence can keep whatever standard battery up front, and whatever low ESR or deep cycle or hi reserve etc dedicated for the rear....

oldspark wrote:

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audiolife wrote:

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having close to the same battery if not the same battery in front as in back would be a good idea because if they are not close all you will be doing is making the differences that much bigger of a difference with temperature and wire/location

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It makes no difference since they are not in parallel except when charging.
Hence can keep whatever standard battery up front, and whatever low ESR or deep cycle or hi reserve etc dedicated for the rear....

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So you like relays?

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Ack!

In regards to kenetic battereis..... I dont know if any one knows but they are basicly out of business if they arent offically yet. But they were sued beacasue their batteries wouldnt provide the voltage they claimed.. the guy won haha imagine that but when comes to battereis always do your homework before you choose!

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YES....OR....NO..?
Unique
Wichita, KS

What "voltage" were they claiming...Do you have a link to this...I'll peruse the internet...

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

unique316 wrote:

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In regards to kenetic battereis..... I dont know if any one knows but they are basicly out of business if they arent offically yet. But they were sued beacasue their batteries wouldnt provide the voltage they claimed.. the guy won haha imagine that but when comes to battereis always do your homework before you choose!

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Then why were they booked solid at CES? Why are they shipping batteries?  What guy won what?

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Ack!

audiolife wrote:

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So you like relays?

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No - not really, but what is the relevance of your question?
Solidstate IMO is far preferable, but that depends on the user and the application.

There is no reason MOSFETs etc cannot be used instead of relays in the connectivity I recommend.


Interesting if they are out of business - not that I suspected anything through their lack of info in the web (lol)... what was that other similar site?

Funny thing though my kinetik has out lived all the optimas I have owned and my stinger sp1000 combined.

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Ack!

LOL! That's because it's a different manufacturer...
My AGMs are well over 10 years old.
Then again, my daily wets are about 8 years old.... (albeit with little Ah remaining!)   

You should check out mp3car/139579-what-battery.html.

oldspark wrote:

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LOL! That's because it's a different manufacturer...
My AGMs are well over 10 years old.
Then again, my daily wets are about 8 years old.... (albeit with little Ah remaining!)   

You should check out mp3car/139579-what-battery.html.

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Different manufacturer?

I had an optima go completely dead at IASCA world finals in 1997 as it was being judged. It was replaced one time then after less than a year it died again and the shop where  I bought it at looked at the car and said  "oh hell no". Even though they were the ones who suggested it to begin with.

My kinetik just went past its 5th year powering systems of 500 watts to 1700 on a stock alt as my only battery. In fact my old comp car was bought and switched into a 2 seater and 8 12's were placed where the backseats used to be. 6900 watts RMS of memphis ST class A/B amplifiers and 4 HCpower 2000's in 2000. Last time I seen the car it had the ST amps replaced with MC series amps with the same size with the same HC power batteries in late 2008. HC power = kinetik. In 2007 it sat in the tent at the county fair playing very loudly for several minutes at a time. The car only has 1 190 amp Ohio Gen alt. I also know several vehicles that won spl world titles with modded banks that were 4++ years old.

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Ack!

Yeah - I hear of heaps of Optimas dying, but I can't rule out the owner - you know, the type that has a 45A alternator with external mechanical regulator; has the battery in the trunk; wants to be assured a LARGE alternator won't blow his next battery; gets a new alternator before checking the battery; later finds 2 collapsed cells thanks to a super-hot trunk.

I often argue against such expensive batteries especially when their setup negates the lower ESR etc. But if they insist on an engine-bay mounted AGM and a cap overcoming an undersized alternator - I've got little chance....
AGMs for antique cars & collectors & the super-audio; fine.


I would probably never buy an Optima nor Odyssey, though I have been tempted to test some claims (charging ok above 14.5V if under a certain temp etc) - but we have protection against misleading advertising etc.

I would be reluctant to buy Kinetic and similar based on the lack of "critical" information on their web page(s) - though I did like their "more powerful than 100F cap" etc LOL!.
I'd be more likely to buy from their OEM that probably charges less... (did I hear a Pulse?)


AFAIAC, an AGM should last at least 10 years in a car etc. But as Exide found out with their TorqueStarter many years ago, the ideal battery may not last and may be subject to recall (through no fault of the battery technology - ie, AGM). However charging systems are somewhat superior these days.


It sounds however that you have answered OP rfhvhtoo's question.

I generally just point out the alternatives depending on what is required and possible - eg, 1 or 2 batteries; cranking or audio deep-cycle; undersized alternators; 12V vs dc-dc amps, etc.
I can generally provide cheaper and superior solutions to stiffening capacitors and the so-called dual battery charge allocation systems or other split systems...

Undersized alternators? Even if you have the biggest alternator made you can very easily have a sytem that over powers it. Alts are not a smooth constant source and are dependant on RPM to the power they put out and their regulators design effects how fast an alternator reacts.

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Ack!

audiolife - You are preaching to the converted....

I deal with people that keep reading how the solution to powering a 2kW audio with their 1kW alternator is a bigger battery or a (bigger) cap.

They don't see the joke - the ones insisting on low ESRs etc for the max voltage delivery (to a dc-dc converted amp mind you) happily allow their system to drop from (say) 13.8V or higher to 12.7V and lower.


But I'm not discussing that here - it is not part of the OP issue, nor is there any ideal solution (ie, SPL freaks want no caps; others just want extended reserve time without the bigger alternator and higher voltage).


If you have a particular issue you wish to discuss, do so.
Please don't take the specifics of what I say as a general statement nor apply it to other situations.
If you read my posts elsewhere you will see my various qualifications (as in "in this situation").

Apologies if you are not (nit-)picking on me (or others), but when an entire reply merely has "so you like relays?" - as if that has any relevance - and later replies seem merely to want to contradict my writings.... let's just say that I'm getting better at taking hints. (Better - still far from good.)

I'm not the one claiming this or that with specific batteries. I don't have those problems.   
But I am reporting what others have written etc.
And I also express doubts based on experience - eg, the false claims that the masses seem to miss, or when certain ads are similar to ads put out by previous failed companies or fly-by-nighters, or when such ads do NOT have the info that traditionally good & quality companies/products have.

I can stop doing that if you wish - just say so.
I can keep what others wrote about certain companies ceasing, or the crap about battery isolators with SOC current balancing etc.
After all, none of that has any practical impact on me.


So if you want to discuss some specific, how about why the relay quip - is there a problem with them? Do you too prefer FETs etc? Surely NOT diode isolation (OMG!)?

If it's about alternators and bigger batts and caps putting on an "extra load" hence implying "more damaging" or any other specific, please say so and I'll link to a suitable reply elsewhere, or answer. But let's not make this thread an "everything you ever wanted to know....".


PS - The bets are on here that yet again I will NOT get any practical response to a query in another post. Problem is there are few here that take the opposite wager - that the poster concerned will provide the evidence they so happily mentioned; they will not use "commercial in confidence" bullsh; that they do have the "valid" results for their own product; and that the poster is way too senior to try the usual deflections and putdowns. Why do I have such a hard time finding co-betters, and the why the hard time extracting my wins? (Yes you AusDive Texans - I haven't forgotten!)

To close the "pending data issue, as updated at need battery, kinetik or odyssey, the only Optima data I'm likely to get (if any!) will be for paralleled Optimas.
I couldn't get any data from Optima to dispel claims of unreliability.

The web seems the best source for testimonials, but some can be bad - ie, batteries that have been wrecked by fools rather than being a bad battery.

I have generally only dealt with people that have had Optima troubles. However these people are like old typewriters - you have to keep punching in the info.
But whilst my web readings generally seemed to find bad Optima stories, one of my last was the opposite - Optima came out in front.

And maybe the environments vary. I've looked a lot at 4WD, camping & outdoor, solar, etc for fridges, lighting, sound, entertainment. But not much for car audio and SPL competitions.

Kinetik certainly seems to have done well - so much for my "web site" assessment (it doesn't always work; just most of the time).
Alas AFAIK we don't have Kinetik here, nor the cheaper Odysseys, but we have the "grey" bateries (were they Odyssey?) & we have Pulse but they're Gel.

Anyhow, good luck with battery selections. Like computers, it ain't easy.
I'll be using my old Yuasa AGM for a while - give one of the 8 year old wets a bit of a rest.

awesome yeah The kinetik Marine Batteries seem to be cheaper than their Normal Car audio Battery yet they are suppose to be the same battery just different posts. I'm sure it'll work out thanks alot!

Mobility Battery

sharilewis wrote:

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awesome yeah The kinetik Marine Batteries seem to be cheaper than their Normal Car audio Battery yet they are suppose to be the same battery just different posts. I'm sure it'll work out thanks alot!

Mobility Battery

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They may be cheaper due to the fact they are older stock. I have not seen kinetik marine batteries for a couple years myself.

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Ack!

Good point.
I read of someone seeing 3-4 year old AGMs in auto stores - not that that is bad if they have been maintained.
But do auto stores top up AGM batteries every 1-2 years as required?

From my measurements of wet batteries in chain stores, I suspect they do not maintain theirs (though wets require top up every 3-6 months.)
But if they are maintaining, then they are selling sub-standard batteries.
[I get my batteries from an old'sCool shop that constantly churn hence only have fresh batteries, and are also well on top of failure rates (goodbye Apollo - allbethat form 10 years ago.)]

If it's lower than its storage voltage, then do NOT buy it - it is already damaged.

Trivial update to confirm closure of previous "data pending"...
No data was supplied including that for parallel batteries - and I still maintain avoid paralleling except when required, or when charging). (Paralleling two matched batteries (at least) doubles their unreliability where the unreliability (figures) relate to the single battery's self-failure.)

And despite my initial doubts, it seems Kinetik are good. (And I have nothing to support that they are not better than others.)

FYI - I recently put my 10 year old 38AH Yuasa AGM into service. Last night after several minutes of repeated cranking of a >140A reduction starter to un-bog my vehicle (ignition off) etc, it got me home without an alternator with ~1 hour of driving with 2x55W low beams etc. Based on voltage of 12.3V, it seemed to be under 40% discharged. Yep - I like AGMs. In their place.