good 4 awg wire brand?

Hello all, I'm in the process of doing the big 3 upgrade on my wiring. I have a 140A alternator and am wondering about the type of wire that would be best for 4 AWG. There are so many options out there and brands of 4 AWG wire that I'm getting confused about them.

Aluminum tinned 1660 stranded wire, copper wrapped aluminum core? I'm looking at some brands like Xscorpion, Stinger, Tsunami (eBay items). Also, looking to get good crimp rings and fuse holder for 150A, since I'm figuring that 4AWG wire running max of 6ft will handle up to 150AMPS.

Thanks

If you're looking on ebay for wire you may also want to look on Amazon. When you search on Amazon you can look at ratings for products rather than ratings for sellers like on ebay. You can also sort wire by best selling or highest rated (reviewed by buyers). Might be worth a try if no one else has the answer you're looking for.

Also, I'm not sure about aluminum tinned or copper wrapped aluminum core wire as conductors but in general the metals below are in order of their conductive ability.

             Listed best to worst

silver copper gold aluminum iron steel brass

Avoid aluminium - except perhaps for rigid runs.

Al isn't very fatique resistant, and softness is a problem for connectors, and recrimping etc.   

It is hard to beat good copper - even gold is a worse conductor.

Alright I decided to go the all Xscorpion route. I went 4AWG, but am trying to figure out how I'm going to cut this thick wire and then crimp the connections for it. Any advice on this is most appreciated...

Avoid aluminum wire if possible, it is about a 1/3 less conductive than copper. In order to get approximately the same voltage drop you will need to go from 4AWG to 2AWG. Copper wire is significantly more expensive than copper clad aluminum (CCA). If the cost seems low for copper it is most likely CCA wire.

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This information is provided only as a reference.
All circuits should be verified with a digital multi-meter prior to making any connections.

true alluminum doesn's hold alot of current but kicker wire has around 2000 strands for 4 awg i believe.

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

mcintosh-asylum wrote:

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true alluminum doesn's hold alot of current but kicker wire has around 2000 strands for 4 awg i believe.

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1: A wire doesn't "hold a lot of current". Current isn't HELD, it's CARRIED.

2: The number of strands has NOTHING to do with how much current a given wire can carry, it determines its flexibility.

so sorry mr car audio and it deffinately determines how much current it carries. the thicker the wire the more electricity it can carry ......make sense?

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

Not Mr. Car Audio at all, (even though I am QUITE versed in the field...) I am a US Navy trained electrician, and I have been in the electrical field since the mid 80's, and various audio fields for very close to that many years.

My bio, if you care... It might help you see...

4 gauge is 4 gauge is 4 gauge whether it's solid bar (it does exist), 7 strands (commonly used in power distribution) or 2000 strands (your Kicker example). The gauge of a wire tells you how many circular mils a wire has. Two thousand strands will APPEAR larger than the 4 gauge solid wire, but I assure you, they are the very same amount of copper. If there are more than 41,740 circular mils, then it is not 4AWG, it is larger than 4AWG. Fewer? Smaller than 4AWG. Incorrectly labeled? Ahhhh.... THERE it is!

Check this page out, it'll explain everything to you...

The stranded wires are certainly more flexible. This is the only benefit. A true 4G copper conductor will carry the same amount of current as any OTHER 4G copper conductor. I promise you, with ABSOLUTE certainty, it definitely makes more sense to me than it obviously does you. My apologies for my blunt response, but I think you need to pick your battles a little more wisely.

mcintosh-asylum wrote:

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so sorry mr car audio and it deffinately determines how much current it carries. the thicker the wire the more electricity it can carry ......make sense?

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dude, im not trying to be a douche but how are you only hitting a 150 with 4 xxx 15's? you running 4000 watts total or to each one?

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its only 4000 total and its a no wall with one extra battery and i know solid wire exists but you cant say that 7 strands carries as much current as a solid bar will

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

Agreed - there is an electrical difference between solid and stranded of the same gauge.

mcintosh-asylum wrote:

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...and i know solid wire exists but you cant say that 7 strands carries as much current as a solid bar will

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Yes. I can. And I did. If it is the same gauge wire, it will, and it does.

oldspark wrote:

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Agreed - there is an electrical difference between solid and stranded of the same gauge.

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There is NO electrical difference, at DC. It is the same number of circular mils. It is the same DC resistance for a given length. At high frequencies, a stranded wire (especially an "individually varnished strands" wire i.e. "Litz" wire) is far better than a solid wire. At DC and up to a few hundred cycles. there is no measurable difference; in a lab, with exceptionally high resolution equipment, possibly. To everyday applications, and MOST ESPECIALLY IN DC EVERYDAY APPLICATIONS, (the car environment) there is zero difference - electrically.

Bare stranded wire can carry MARGINALLY more current safely, due to the additional surface area, thus better cooling, but it is a marginal AT BEST difference. With insulated wire there is so little difference as to be not a factor.

Well thanks guys, but I ended up with some great Xscorpion 1666 stranded 4AWG wire. It is nice and flexible for all my grounds and power hookup between my 140A alternator and battery post.

Now I'm just trying to figure out the best way to cut and crimp 4awg terminals to 4awg wire. I don't like the hammer method or vise method or even the screwdriver and hammer method.

Now I'm just in the process of finding a car audio shop that will let me use their heavy duty thick gauge crimpers instead of spending a lot of money for something I'll only occasionally use.

oldspark wrote:

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Agreed - there is an electrical difference between solid and stranded of the same gauge.

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haemphyst wrote:

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Bare stranded wire can carry MARGINALLY more current safely, due to the additional surface area, thus better cooling, but it is a marginal AT BEST difference.

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Agreed - a difference.

I see it more as a resistance difference, keeping in mind that that is how I calculate the gauge I will use (I don't use gauge-current tables).

god people listen a wire with 2000 strands will carry more current than a wire with 1000 strands am i wrong?

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

Yes. You are wrong. As I stated before, a copper 4 gauge conductor is a 4 gauge copper conductor, and the strand count will make absolutely no difference in the amount of current it can carry.

Now... If you have a cable, that for example contains one-thousand 45-gauge wires and you have another cable that contains two-thousand 45-gauge wires, of COURSE the cable with two-thousand wires will carry more current, but it's going to be a larger total AWG number.

I keep harping on this, and you are OBVIOUSLY missing the pitch, AWG numbers are a fixed circular mil number.

Let's take your 1000 strand versus 2000 strand example. We'll still end up at 4AWG.

4AWG = 41,740CM
41,740CM / 1000 = 41.74CM per strand = approximately 34 gauge
41,740CM / 2000 = 20.87CM per strand = approximately 36 gauge

The individual strands are smaller, to get 2000 of them INTO a 4AWG space. It's still 4AWG. It's still 41,740CM. It's still the same DCR. The additional volume of the wire is the additional space. More strands have more space around them - interstitial space - so the bundle will fill more volume.

You are wrong if you think that simply adding strands BUT STILL ENDING UP AT THE SAME WIRE GAUGE, allows that wire to carry more current. The individual strands have to get smaller to get more of them into the same 4G. The number of strands does NOTHING to improve or enhance the current capacity of the wire, as long as we are considering the SAME FINAL WIRE GAUGE. It's for flexibility ONLY. Oh, and for the capacitor crowd... Those are the guys that believe that a cap fixes electrical shortcomings because Kicker (or Rockford, or "insert manufacturer here") SAYS it does.

It's advertising and it's pretty. Two-thousand strands MUST be better than one-thousand strands, right? You are EXACTLY the guy the advertisers hope will read their drivel. Dude. No difference. 4G is 4G is 4G.

yes but most have different strand count it will be a 4 awg casing but with a larger amout of strands.

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

I never disagreed with that. What I disagreed with was YOUR belief that a copper 2000 strand, true 4AWG wire will carry more current safely than a copper 1000 strand, true 4AWG cable, when nothing could be further from the truth. (Notice I said "true 4AWG", and not "labeled 4AWG") There are some manufacturers out there that will give you "more for your money", i.e. a slightly larger bundle of wires (maybe around a 3AWG) called "4AWG", and there are also unscrupulous manufacturers that will short you by giving you less than you paid for, possibly by labeling something like a "5AWG" as "4AWG".

But as I said and will continue to say, a copper 4AWG is a copper 4AWG is a copper 4AWG cable, and they will carry the same amount of current, regardless of the strand count, and yes, I mean everywhere from a solid bar to your 2000 strand cable. They're the same.

Strand count does not matter.
AWG is directly related to circular mil and circular mil is the cross section area of the conductor.
Stranded wire LOOKS like it has a larger cross sectional area because it contains alot of wasted space that does little in regards to conductance.
The sum of the cross sectional area of each strand will equal the cross sectional area of a solid wire of the same gauge.

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This information is provided only as a reference.
All circuits should be verified with a digital multi-meter prior to making any connections.

This is what I'm sayin'...

Just agreeing with you

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This information is provided only as a reference.
All circuits should be verified with a digital multi-meter prior to making any connections.

the same size wire with different strand count makes no difference your saying

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

correct

edit: as long as it is true to size as H stressed

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This information is provided only as a reference.
All circuits should be verified with a digital multi-meter prior to making any connections.

Electrically, and at DC, yes. The ONLY difference is flexibility.

A bit of advise Mr. Mac Ass. Make very sure of your research before arguing any car audio amps and wiring with David (Hamfist). I did car audio for 30 years and have never met anyone with more techno knowledge (Jack Finks?) then Dave. Although I did design and manufacture his front door pods, he is the best.

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There is no such thing as free installation!

Though all but names above may be true & appropriate, it does not mean that anyone is always correct.

Besides which - as shown in this case - there is much interpretation which has gradually be ironed out. (Then there is degree. Or "theory" and practice.)

If the lot had have been combined into one concise all-encompassing paragraph, I'm sure we'd be a few pages shorter.

There shouldn't have been ANY "ironing" necessary... I was QUITE clear from my very first post.

haemphyst wrote:

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4 gauge is 4 gauge is 4 gauge whether it's solid bar (it does exist), 7 strands (commonly used in power distribution) or 2000 strands (your Kicker example). The gauge of a wire tells you how many circular mils a wire has. Two thousand strands will APPEAR larger than the 4 gauge solid wire, but I assure you, they are the very same amount of copper. If there are more than 41,740 circular mils, then it is not 4AWG, it is larger than 4AWG. Fewer? Smaller than 4AWG. Incorrectly labeled? Ahhhh.... THERE it is!

The stranded wires are certainly more flexible. This is the only benefit. A true 4G copper conductor will carry the same amount of current as any OTHER 4G copper conductor.

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TWICE, I was quite clear in my very positive statements. I was quite careful to specifically say EXACTLY what I had to say. Mr. mcintosh just wanted to argue, I think.

P.S. Thankee, Bob! Hope everything is going well for you!

Your very second post....

IMO it was your later additions that clarified. EG:
- DC only
- insulated wire
- true AWG and not its labeled AWG.
I did not see those as being neither implicit nor clear in your 2nd reply (except for insulation in this case).

And it's a case of degree....


I usually look at issues from the end-user perspective or application specific...
EG - where same labeled gauges are different (eg 2.5mm2 ~13AWG as 7x.67 or 1x1.78 = 7.7 & 7.6mR/m).
Usually that's only a small difference of typically 2% in resistance; max 5% from memory in similar cases; but that is a 4%-10% current carrying difference. (Granted, copper purity and state tend to have greater impact.)    

Then the joint difference where - if soldering - more whetting for multi-strand can have significant less joint-resistance etc.
Or without solder, interference connectors for solid (single core) outperform, whereas crimping can vary (eg: 32 strand better than 1 better than 7 etc).


For those reasons, I see a difference in the number of strands (all other things being equal eg, annealed or pure) because I compare end-to-end distribution (connector-cable-connector etc) with typically bought products - eg the above 2.5mm2 cables both labeled as 2.5mm2 or 13G etc.
Rarely will any cable say (eg) "4 AWG (actually 4.0424; or even 4.24 AWG)".   

But as I oft say, I never use "those" wiring tables (except as a sanity or max rating check) - I use resistance instead.
And that is usually easy to find - it's often on the packaging - and thence who cares what grade of copper etc.

The issue then usually becomes one of flexibility - few cores for stationary distribution; several cores for starter motors & alternators; heaps of cores for power tools...


Alas I wasn't sure what degree of accuracy was being argued....
But IMO, differences of 2% & 10% can be enough to mention the realistic differences.


Now, if only I can find where people were arguing that "same charge repulsion" pushes even DC "charges" to the outer skin... It's probably one of those sites that says electricity (ie, ions or electrons) travels a near light speeds (~2/3rds C) or in a certain direction etc....

PS - I won't argue uneven cross-sectional charge distribution for electrons nor ion in a DC conductor. (But ito particles....)

i was just always taught something different so keep my name outta your mouth my little friend

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4 soundstream xxx 15's :)
150.6 with 4000 watts

mcintosh-asylum wrote:

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i was just always taught something different so keep my name outta your mouth my little friend

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dude, i dont think anyone means to offend you. this kind of thing happens all the time. someone comes in with their own preconceptions of how things are and not open to other explanations. you cant be like that every time someone argues with you. just sit back and let these people drop knowledge. if you want to prove people wrong then come to the table with evidence and have a civilized debate.



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My last work with David, the most accurate car audio system I've ever heard.

https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=94280&tpn=1&PN=1

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There is no such thing as free installation!

soundnsecurity wrote:

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dude, i dont think anyone means to offend you...

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I consider calling him an Ass fairy offensive, not to mention other digs.

I agreed with mcintosh-asylum that there was a difference.
And there was/is as has been ironed out by rational discussion - it was not clear from the start (IMO too).

Unless I missed something that mcintosh-asylum wrote, I don't think he was trying to argue - hence I do not see why I am any less argumentative than him.


This is just another where someone is unclear in what matters, and others think they have been quite clear and covered all issues.
Unless we get real formal, this to & fro must be expected.


So, did we sort out the brand?

yeah i guess i must have missed that part. but hey, i learned something.

i believe the OP went with xscorpion 4G wire. its kind of hard to find good wire these days. no one wants to make real copper wire anymore but the best ive dealt with so far is either kicker or hooker. ive heard knukoncepts (sp?) is some decent stuff too if you get their top of the line wire.

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Tee-hee - it's funny what we miss. I just re-read an old PM and realised that I had been threatened (as well as being called "a plague".... because I had made friends!).


Interesting that quality has hit raw commodity level...
I knew most things including components went cheap rather than quality (because accountant or "profit-run" businesses didn't care about future costs or losses). But to see it effect base metals, or very basic but mature fundamental items...
I'm glad I mentioned purity in this thread! (figjam)

I'll have to re-release my domain filter - it compensated for all the molecular etc domains in copper wire that used to distort audio sound before the advent of OFC. That's in the days before caps solved power problems.
(For readers that are not plague resistant, the latter para is in jest and mocks the many spousetales invented by marketeers before female viagra.)