charging system, power, ground

I am upgrading my entire charging system with a 220 amp alternator, 0 gauge stinger hpm wire, a 500 amp pac isolator, and non fused stinger 0 gauge power and ground blocks, with two kinectic 600 batteries hooked up inline to a soundstorm f4400 (voice) and Hifonics Brutus Bxi2607d (bass). I have two questions, can i mount the isolator in the back with the amps or does it need to be close to the alternator? And how high of a fuse to I put before and after the isolator? the soundstorm amp has two 40 amp fuses and the hifonics has no fuses but is rated at 250 amp internal?

The isolator can be anywhere. (How are you isolating the kinetics from each other?)

You need a fuse at the main battery and one for each aux (kinetic). (I'd suggest one fuse each rather than a shared fuse.)

The fuse rating cannot be larger than the cable rating or the smallest link. A smaller fuse can be used to protect the batteries.


PS - the PAC 500 is merely a relay isn't it? It has no voltage sensing etc? So are you adding the UIBI to control it?

Yeah, that's what I was asking. But you don't need a monitor or battery guard if you have a charge light - it does the same thing only better. That "existing" charge light costs you nothing, and you may just need a smaller relay to drive the PAC's coil.
The same can be used to isolate the kinetics from each other unless you do that manually...

Whats the best way to separate the kinetics? And to go back to the fuse ratings, since I'm running 0 gauge throughout my entire charge system all my fuses should be 300 amps? And for the isolator, how would I wire the charge light and relay? It has the two positive posts, one ground post and the remote turn on?

Kinetics - the same way (the smaller "buffer" relay can act as a master to energise all others. You can add a manual switch to parallel when not charging, and an optional low-voltage-switch/battery protector that isolates the batteries at your desired disconnect voltage.


What model or type alternator do you have?

I recently upgraded to a 220 amp alternator, heres the link:

 https://https://www./itm/HIGH-OUTPUT-220AMP-ALTERNATOR-Chevrolet-Monte-Carlo-3-8L-2000-2001-/280784376182?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AChevrolet%7CYear%3A2000&vxp=mtr&hash=item41600d9176

so the way I plan to run my wires is on 0 guage wire from the alternator directly to my starting battery, and then another 0 gauge  wire from the alternator to a 300 amp fuse block, from there to my isolator, from the isolator to the  the t-block, and then from the two outputs of the t-block will be another 300 amp fuse block (each side) right before each kinetic battery, and then the final stop would be to each amp (voice and bass). could you tell me if this setup would be accecptable?

0 Gauge wire being used :https://www./itm/400234976106?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

500 amp isolator: https://https://www./itm/PAC-500-AMP-PAC500-HIGH-CURRENT-RELAY-BATTERY-ISOLATOR-/360397703480?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e9608938

Fuse blocks with 300 amp fuses: https://https://cgi./ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270893610867

T-blocks (power and ground):  https://www./itm/310279535874?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649https://

Kinetik batteries: https://www......com/item_7324_Kinetik-HC600-KHC600.html

Voice amp: https://www.....com/Soundstorm-Force-F4400-4-Channel-Amplifier_p_7016.html

Bass amp: https://www......com/item_9338_Hifonics-BXi2607D.html

Seems that somebody failed to read the forum rules about links, in specific....

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

m1ndz21 - a quick look & search and I couldn't determine what connections that alternator has (other than +B & chassis-GND - we don't "count" those).

Does it have a single wire (D+ or L)?
If it has more, what are they (L & S? I, L, S? D & P?)?

thats a pic of the back of the alternator, it has the single charge output and then the smaller four wire plug at the bottom.

I'm up to the chassis ground part of my install, so far i've discovered that the original ground comes from the portion of the engine block behind the starter to the negative battery terminal and then to the battery to chassis ground. should i run another engine to chassis ground to the same spot as the battery to chassis ground or should I run that to a seperate location?

Also what size fuse should I put for my alt to battery, and for my amps? I was thinking a 300 amp, since i'm using 0 gauge and that should be the max amperage that wire can handle right?

IMO - no harm adding a ground wire to a suitable ground point or the engine block etc.


Any alt to battery fuse is usually only to protect the cable - ie, near the battery - though I'd probably rely on physical security (solid cable, connectors and insulation/protection) for that capacity unless using non-lead battery terminals.
But for Pete's sake, adding a fuse is not supposed to increase the hazard as was the case with another that instead of having a short alt-batt cable, had a longish alt-cable-fuse-cable-battery that IMO was LESS safe than a mere short (well insulated & secure) cable.

A good alternator should not need fuse protection. Conversely, a fuse is unlikely to protect an alternator.
(Hence its fuse reduces to cable ratings (cable protection from shorts) as in the case of your amp's fuse (ie, battery end; the amp's protection fuse (in or at the amp end) is to suit the amp).   


PS... BTW - if one of the 4 wires is a D+ or L or chargeLight output, you should be able to use that to control a relay as a battery isolator.

Would it be safe to run both my power and ground from my alternator to my amps in my trunk? I plan to run the power directly from my alternator and my ground from the alternator case/mount, to the rear of my vehicle to two seperate 0 gauge t-blocks. Would this be a safe setup and would it provide sufficient power and ground? and as funny as it sounds, is it safe to run both wires side by side? thanks

Firstly, to clarify something you wrote (much) earlier...
The isolator and "battery guard" are two separate functions.

The isolator is to:
- isolate "aux" batteries form the main battery when NOT being charged (so as to ensure normal cranking power);
- isolate paralleled batteries when not being charged or not needed for a load. (Batteries should not be left paralleled when not being used. A faulty battery can kill the others, and in some cases can be hazardous - eg, thermal runaway in AGM (and long-term, wet!) batteries.)

The "battery protector" is to cut off loads when the battery has discharged to whatever desired level - eg, 80%, 50%, 20% etc of remaining capacity - to keep within warranty specs or to prevent premature failure.

Both above are subject to widespread misinterpretation and subject to tremendous ripoffs by industry.
EG - battery sellers will often claim paralleling is no problem. And it isn't, until one fails. And wrt to battery reliability, you will be replacing batteries 4 times as often for 2 permanently paralleled batteries, or 9 times for 3 batteries; 16 for 4, etc. Indeed, paralleling is "no problem" what$oever for battery $uppliers et al!!!. Others may claim the same based on a lack of knowledge or certain lucky else other maintained or monitored installations.
And few seem to incorporate ways to stop a battery from discharging to an excessive depth. (Why don't battery manufacturers highlight low-voltage cut-outs? Hmmmm...)


As to wiring, parallels are fine, though usually it is cheaper to go the equivalent gauge. But redundancy and path diversion may factor into that decision.

Whilst the GND may be easy to take from the engine (or alternator though that should not make any significant electrical difference), the +12V is usually a different issue.
The +12V is usually easier (and safer) from the battery else a common power point - eg, alternator/battery/fusebox common point.
Of course it is implicit that ALL paths be capable of the required current - eg, don't connect 300A to a "common" connection with less from the alternator or battery (unless each is fused for their rated cable capacity).

The above can also depend on what source is the most important.
EG - if you want the best power available from the battery, then +12V & GND from the battery. (Same for the "cleanest" or least noisy source for amplifiers etc/)
If it's when charging, then +12V from the alternator with GND from the alternator body - though usually that's from the engine.
In theory, the GND at the chassis/body, alternator, and engine should all be the same. As too the alternator +12V output and battery +12V.
But in practice (and practical or detailed theory), cables and fuses insert a resistance between them and hence a voltage drop of V=IR where I is the current and R is the path resistance (cable, fuse, joins).
And though some are pedantic and wire GND to the alternator case, I have yet to see where an alternator case to engine has any measurable else significant voltage drop (resistance) - except for some with remote alternators (including where alternator mounting bolts or brackets are not solid enough). However, for those that weld cables to the alternator body - or better still, internally to the stator winding(s) - in order to negate terminal resistance (including later contamination, corrosion etc), though sometime overkill, that's cool.
But all are subject to consideration of what happens if the connections break down. (NEVER lose your alternator GND (engine) to body/chassis and battery GND! Hence multiple redundant paths are often used. [Redundancy - where each is capable of full load (or) so failure of one (or more) is still within specs or capability.]

As an old example, in pre-HID & pre-LED days where lighting was important (I'm thinking of rally cars), the GND and +12V was often taken from the alternator. Where the wire gauge was too big to connect directly to the alternator, a thinner short interconnect was used from the alternator B+ (+12V) to the light's +12V supply. This cable might even be underrated wrt to the lights' current, but done in such a way (ie, SHORT) that the alternator or thicker gauge would adequately heat-sink excess heat. (As to the added resistance, it was only a short length.)
Keep in mind though that these installations would typically use gauges much thicker than normal wiring tables since they wanted minimal voltage drops - not the commonly accepted 3V or 1V drop etc that such tables were based on. Actually, even then, the GND was usually from the engine as connecting to the alternator body or mounting bolts was too risky, or inconvenient for fast alternator changeovers. (Keep in mind, engine movements and heat that fatigue electrical connections!)


FYI - Wise people (and sites that shall remain nameless) recommend "the BIG 3" as the first step for anything - even improving standard electrics. (Like, if up to a 3V or 1V is an acceptable voltage drop for the industry, and hence in standard vehicles...).
That's trying to make the various grounds, and the various +12V source points, the same. IE, battery GND, chassis/body GND, alternator GND (and hence starter motor GND?) the same (negligible resistance); and battery +12V, fusebox +12V supply, and alternator output the same. (Pity that the alternator-battery fuse "blows" (pun) the same alt +12V and battery +12V voltage.)
Or that's as I see it. But the effect of that is how many see it - ie, reducing voltage drops OR increasing current capability - maybe so that wires don't melt!
{That reminds me - should a cable be thickened or paralleled? Feel it after operating. The warmer it is, the higher its resistance. Starter motor cables may get warm, but that might not matter, and it should be a short-term load only. Warmth/heat is often good way to "feel" where any high-resistance portion exists or failure is about to occur, eg - switch contacts, connectors, wires, fuse contacts (but don't burn yourself on fuses - they can normally be quite hot!) etc.}

Ideally power connections should not be to the moving/hot engine for reliability reasons. (PED: And maybe increased resistance due to higher temperature.)
But for GND, it is usually easy to mount BIG and solid/secure cables/bolts to the engine. {Don't assume continued good connectivity. I once had a 2V drop([b/!!) between 2 BIG crimped & soldered eyelet connectors with a highly torqued 12mm (~1/2") thread bolt to the engine block! A typical remove & refit (with a clean) fixed it - but only after blowing my Alpine HU's display.}
I now have redundant grounds - a few separate engine (& gearbox) points to different chassis points.   (BTW - most vehicles have only 2 GND cables - battery to chassis (body), engine to chassis, or engine to battery. It is usually easy to add the 3rd.)   
{Alas, a problem with redundancy - how do you know if one or more has failed? The non-monitored non-maintenance answer - when the last fails and your equipment fails or blows! But that should be very unlikely - at least for a few years.)

Some vehicles now seem to have a main body-mounted connection point, eg, heavy battery +12V and alternator +12V cables to a heavy connection block. That then connects to the main fusebox if it isn't the fusebox itself.
That's great for us add-on'ers if it's heavy enough, else we can install our own.
It is also a good compromise between having both the battery and the alternator as the prime power source. Then take all loads from there - unless you can directly battery mount etc. But I'd argue to make the single alternator cable as heavy as possible - unless the cable voltage drop is still a issue so you still want to run 2 cables to the alternator - one to the normal stuff & one for you. But one BIG is usually better and less risk - unless it's redundant.

Crikey - there is so much involved when getting real fussy and pedantic. So much - heat versus resistance, metal corrosion, vibration, fatigue, is it a "critical" load or merely "highly desirable" when available?

But it all starts with consideration of what you want (after some careful/learned consideration). Hence a "line diagram" of your theoretical desire (showing inter-cabling and denoting where connections exist). It's then a case of "how", and maybe using some of the above methods to achieve it.

As many will say, "the more, the merrier". IE - extra cables will reduce the resistance (increase voltage/power available). And IMO certainly no harm adding multiple grounds. [Grounds are often overlooked when adding new loads - there was a guy that lost $thousands when his 7 DVD players and screens etc all blew. (lol).]
But especially for the +12 side, practicality & reliability & safety play a important part. EG - maybe ditch the alternator to battery fuse in favor of physical security as done with starter motors and battery to fusebox cabling? (Was it this thread where I mentioned the dude that (IMO) created a hazard by incorporating an alternator to battery (or similar; 200A?) fuse?)


Geez, I must be in one of my "pre-awake" verbose moods again....

Wow its taken me 4 days to understand most of what you posted lol. I now understand the importance of isolating the kinectics from each other when the car is not in use, which leads me to this embarrassing and probably incorrectly explained question lol.

The instructions to my 500 amp isolator say to run power directly from my alternator to a fuse, and then to the isolator and then out to my t-block (unfused distribution block). Since I plan to run one kinetik battery off of each t-block outlet, how can I separate them? Do I replace the t-block with another battery isolator?

Oh geez - what did I write?
OMG - not even I can't re-read that!


Maybe if your isolator is an "alternator to system (battery, car)" isolator, then yes. (But...)
Maybe they mean a NEW connection from the alternator - ie, the cable to the original battery is there too - then for "charging" each battery? - that has merit. (But...)

But IMO still incorrect. A battery isolator is placed between batteries - hence its name - it is not to isolate the alternator.
[Apart from "who cares" about the alternator, I'd be curious why anyone would want to isolate the alternator from some or all the vehicle!?]

Besides, battery isolators are usually used to interconnect batteries when being charged, and - as long as the alternator is charging - keeping them connected so they share the load.
...And you don't want to share that load through TWO fused alternator cables.


The isolator principle is simple.
Start with a standard vehicle and its "main" battery battery.
Add a 2nd battery and run its +12V through a fuse (as close to that 2nd battery as practicable) to the isolator's output (ie, to aux or secondary battery).
The opposite "input" goes to the main battery +12V through a fuse (as close to the main battery as practicable).

The isolator could be mounted next to the original battery (and hence maybe unfused if physically secure), but usually it is nearby and fused.

The relay itself is controlled by whatever signal.
First choice is usually the alternator's charge-light circuit - usually connect the SPST relay's coil between GND and the charge-light output (eg, D+ or L). The relay then energises when the charge light (and IGN +12V) is OFF - ie, the alternator is charging. (Circuits or smaller relays may be needed to prevent overloading the D+/L circuit.)
It's easy adding manual overrides, delays, or other triggers - especially for "downstream" relays - eg, your "isolator" disconnects your main battery from the 2 Kintetiks when NOT charging, but your 2 Kinetics stay connected if their relay is told to stay on (a switch, the amp's switch, a low-voltage disconnect (aka battery protector), etc. (It's "easy" if you can wire switches etc, and in some cases, incorporate diodes.)

Next come the voltage-sensing circuits often called "smart isolators" because all their shortcomings have been twisted into desirable features (eg, priority charging LOL!). Now that is smart!
But they are used when an "alternator is charging" signal is not available.
Different brands have different voltages settings and delays (because everyone's has the best switching voltages and delays, and (therefore? NOT!) is the best! But hence be wary if one does something you don't want.
You can usually add $50 to $350 for those "smarts" to the cost of the relay that both systems have in common.    

I 'll mention but not discuss diode isolators. Forget them - unless a pair of IN400x (1A) or 1N540x (3A) etc diodes can be used.


The above have variations like FET or MOSFET etc. But best is still the relay (unless modulation (PWM) is being used).

And getting back to a standard vehicle, the switching types are additions to the st'd wiring - there is no cutting or insertion as with diode isolators. (Hence avoiding possible warranty issue, as well as being easy to return to standard in case of failure or sale.)


Hmmm... do you have a charge light?