proper sq setup?

First of all, thanks for reading. I know this is long but I really appreciate any and all help. I definitely am not new to car stereo install but fairly new to proper SQ setup.

Here is what I currently have to work with (In a DC Tacoma):

Kenwood KDC-x794
Kenwood 6.5" Components (Front). 6.5" 2-way(rear)
8" Pioneer shallow mount sub in a custom box
Planet Audio (VX2004) 4x50 watt RMS running front and rears
Planet Audio (VX1004) 1 x 200 watt RMS pushing 8" sub

I would like to replace the front speakers with something better but right not I am thinking of just pulling out the 6.5" fronts (leaving the tweets) and putting in a better set of true mid-basses.

Here are my questions:

1) The receiver has a 24 db/octave high pass x over that can be adjusted from 30-250 Hz. My amps also have crossovers but I am unsure of the quality. How should I set this up to get the best SQ from both the speakers and sub. I know that the rear speakers are not that important as I am trying to get a front sound stage.

A. Only use receiver EQ/Crossver and set amps to bypass
B. Use cross overs on both the receiver and amp and set at same frequency
C. A different option (please explain)

2) I see most true mid-bass speakers have a range from 80-4000 Hz give or take 1000 Hz in the high range. Where do most of you set your crossover point at (100 Hz?) Do I need to purchase a true crossover unit to be able to filter out a specific range (say 100 hz to 4000 Hz). I know if the radio sends anything over 100 hz into the mid-basses they will not reproduce those sounds but will it affect sounds quality at all (definitely a nub in this area).

3) If I get a midbass with a freq response from say 80-3000 hz will I have a gap in the audible frequency spectrum. I will have my lows covered with the sub and mids but can a 1" tweeter accurately reproduce music in the 5000-10000 hz range? I know they list that range but I am skeptical. Trying to decide if I need to get mids that have a wider freq range (maybe 80-10000 Hz).


I am sure I will have more questions but that is it for now.

First off, the crossovers in your HU or amps are really not intended to be used in the way you think.  They are designed to cross the mains to the subwoofer, not designed to function as the 2-way for a component set.  So set the LP for the sub at about 80-100Hz and the HP for the mains at the same frequency.  Use only the Xover in the HU OR the amps, not both.  I suggest using the HU crossover and defeating the ones on your amps.  As far as your speakers, here's what I suggest:

If you are unhappy with your Kenwood speakers, simply replace them with a good 2-way component set with a passive crossover designed for them  If you can afford them, here is an outstanding sounding SQ set.  If those are out of your price range, go shopping and find a set you really like.  Unless you really know what you're doing do not simply buy some random midbass and tweeter and attempt to build your own: the key to great sound is th crossover, and it does not seem like you really understand crossovers.  So don't mess with them. 

-------------
Support the12volt.com

First off the title should have read A little help needed not "A little" lol.

Thank you for your help and quick reply. I definitely understand what you are talking about. When I said get the mid-bass first I was going to get something that came as a complete set and just get the pieces a few at a time (i.e. mid-basses then crossovers then tweeters). I know I would not get the best sound till all pieces were in place but that would allow me to get something more high end without breaking the bank. Not planning on competing at any SQ events just love to piddle around and slowly build up my system. I would like to stay more in the $300 range for a component set. Been looking at some image dynamics and CDT stuff.

First off, "SQ" and "Kenwood components" rarely, if EVER, belong coexisting in the same sentence...

If you have the Planet Audio amplifiers, then use them, but I'd also look elsewhere for sound quality. You're right though... Forget the rears, and either bridge the 4-channel for more power to the front stage, run it bi-wired, or even better still bi-amped to the front doors. ID and CDT would definitely be better than the Kenwoods. These are REALLY nice, especially for the fundage required to posess them... They also will handle the power you have, AND are bi-wire and bi-amp compatible.

My system is a three way in the doors with crossovers set at 65 to 300Hz, 300Hz to 4kHz, and 4kHz and up, all at 48dB slopes. If you want more details, clicky... That's my car. Still.

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

i would have to agree with DYohn on this one, its not usually a good idea to stick random components together especially without some sort of dedicated crossover. a good tweeter should handle 4000Hz with ease. really good tweeters will handle down to 1500Hz sometimes. my crossover for my tweeters are set at around 1800Hz and they sound just fine. you just have to look at the individual specs for your tweeters and follow their recommended operating frequency range.

your tweeters need to have some sort of dedicated crossover and most radios and amps dont have a crossover that will go high enough to protect the tweeter from low frequencies. this is why i would also recommend just buying a complete component set unless you want to spend extra money on an electronic crossover and deal with the extra headache of setting it up to work with your mix and match speakers.



-------------

soundnsecurity wrote:

---

i would have to agree with DYohn on this one, its not usually a good idea to stick random components together especially without some sort of dedicated crossover.

---

OK here is what I am saying about 'mixing'. I already have a set of Kenwood components that have decent crossovers. They cost me $200 a few years back which for Kenwood is more of the top of the line. I had been looking some Image Dynamics speakers. You can buy the whole package but they also sell each component individually. So I figured I could start by replacing the mid-basses and then in a few months get the matching crossovers and tweeters. I certainly was not planning on putting in some ID mid-basses with a sprinkle of JBL crossovers then top it off with some CDT tweeter lol.

... but you're talking about using some ID woofer into some random Kenwood crossover?  No, I can't recommend this.  Replace the entire system at once.  It is never a good idea to use a Xover designed for a specific set of drivers with any other speaker, unless you know for a fact that the parameters of each driver match.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

the problem with that sir is that your current crossover is matched for the kenwoods frequency response needs, so if you start switching out the tweeters or the mids without a crossover designed for their needs then you risk blowing the mid or the tweeter(probably the tweeter)because you risk sending frequencies to those speakers that they might not be able to handle.

you can try it and see what happens but im just warning you to be careful

edit: to DYohn, get out of my brain...

-------------

DYohn] wrote:

---

... but you're talking about using some ID woofer into some random Kenwood crossover?  No, I can't recommend this.  Replace the entire system at once.  It is never a good idea to use a Xover designed for a specific set of drivers with any other speaker, unless you know for a fact that the parameters of each driver match.

---

Correct but I would have definitely chosen a driver within the correct parameters. This however would limit my selection. I will probably just get an entire set at one time but stay a little cheaper. My current set up has great highs and lows but the midbass is majorly lacking

soundnsecurity wrote:

---

the problem with that sir is that your current crossover is matched for the kenwoods frequency response needs, so if you start switching out the tweeters or the mids without a crossover designed for their needs then you risk blowing the mid or the tweeter(probably the tweeter)because you risk sending frequencies to those speakers that they might not be able to handle.

you can try it and see what happens but im just warning you to be careful

---

Yeah I definitely see what you are saying but I was at least planning on changing out the tweeter and crossover at the same time. I just desperately want some midbass and was looking for an easy way to do it. Unfortunately I cannot find the crossover point for the speakers

another big thing that you need to think of is the actual position of the mids. you say that they are lacking so that could have a lot to do with how they are aimed. or possibly cancellation due to a vibrating door panel or door skin. a lot of things can affect the mids performance other than the quality of the mid.

im not sure how the doors of your tacoma are designed but if they are anything like my frontier then they could definitely benefit from some sound dampening.

-------------

soundnsecurity wrote:

---

another big thing that you need to think of is the actual position of the mids. you say that they are lacking so that could have a lot to do with how they are aimed. or possibly cancellation due to a vibrating door panel or door skin. a lot of things can affect the mids performance other than the quality of the mid.

im not sure how the doors of your tacoma are designed but if they are anything like my frontier then they could definitely benefit from some sound dampening.

---

Yeah they are setup just like your frontier. I had a frontier before I got the tacoma. I have all four doors covered with sound dampening material and baffles installed on the back of the front speakers. Not sure what I can do beside find some Q-forms for it. What does your setup look like?

JVC navi up front with built in 13 band EQ and time alignment, running to a kicker electronic 3-way crossover sending signal to an alpine PDX 4 channel amp. the speakers are diamond audio HEX pro components, the tweeters are ran off of 2 channels and the mids are ran off of the other 2 channels.

everything is adjusted through the kicker crossover because i didnt have space for the giant crossovers that came with my component set. but, this give me the bonus of being able to choose whatever crossover point sounds best. the bad thing was that i also couldnt find anything about the recommended crossover point so it was a lot of trial and error and careful listening to make sure my tweeters would be ok being crossed over at around 2000Hz. i got the components on a serious deal and normally they cost around $900 at dealer cost so i was pretty nervous about blowing them but 1 year later they are still alive.

a final solution for the bass is still being worked on but right now im using a 15" SXX from RE audio in a box that takes up the whole back seat. im in the market for something better that doesnt take such a big box to get the sound i want.


-------------

have you tried not using those baffles behind the speakers?

-------------

soundnsecurity wrote:

---

have you tried not using those baffles behind the speakers?

---

Not with this particular pair of speakers but in my experience the baffles tend to make them hit harder. They are not air tight or anything. Just mainly there to keep the dirt and grime off of them.

I have never owned a pair but I hear good things about Diamond Audio products. Who else do you like or at least have heard good things about.

ive had mixed results with those baffles. it could be that the baffles are creating a response peak close to the frequencies that you actually want to have more of. if this is the case then it might not be that you lack mid bass but that you have too much of something else which is keeping you from being able to turn it up enough to hear the mid bass. kind of how having too much bass will make it seem like your highs are not loud enough even though they are screaming at you. your ears will naturally gravitate toward hearing the louder sounds so if your sound is not balanced then your lack of mid bass could just be your ears playing tricks on you.

are you using any kind of equalizer?

-------------

Right now I am just using the built in 5 band equalizer on the head unit. Got both the low and high pass crossovers set on the HU at 100 hz and have the crossovers on the amps bypassed. Again, not looking to win any competition just would like a better overall response. I listen to a lot of Rock and also a ton of acoustic depending on my mood. No rap.

you also might benefit from a more powerful amp. a typical 200x4 will only give you about 20 watts per channel if you are using 4 ohm speakers. this might also be part of your problem because lower frequencies usually need more power to be reproduced.

-------------

Would I notice a difference in SQ between these:

What I have now: https://www.kenwoodusa.com/Car_Entertainment/Speakers/6.5%27%27_Oversized_n_6.5%27%27_Speakers/KFC-P709PS


What I am looking at (I can get a near-mint set for $140.00)
https://www.woofersetc.com/p-9623-esk-165-hertz-65-energy-2-way-component-system.aspx

If someone knows of another set for around 200ish and thinks they are much better for the money let me know. I like a lot of acoustic stuff so looking for crisp sound but not harsh.