imaging decision

Hey guys,

I am designing a system for an 06 Scion XB we're going to use for demo in my store utilizing Rockford amp, subs and mids and one of the new 2013 Alpine decks coming out with mirrorlink. I've got it designed just how I want it aside from two questions. First, we're glassing this car and doing the doors, dash, kicks, etc. The car is fairly narrow anyways and I've had some Q-Logic kicks in there before for a 6.5" component set and they stuck so far out I couldn't keep from kicking them on accident. I'm thinking doing a 4" coax instead of a 6.5" coax and no tweeter (RF T142 instead of T1652) would still give me sufficient sound, power, imaging but be considerably better for clearance. I'm doing a set of RF T2652 in the door and another T2652 in the outer dash. So to the second question now. Final and fourth mid setup is going to be a T1652 coax that I had originally planned to just glass into the rear enclosure outside of the subs for rear fill (got to read a bit more on rear fill and see if it sounds better to phase mids and highs to a specific dynamic range with capacitors and inductors like say, 40-200 hz or whatever other way, haven't done enough research on this part yet). Here's my conundrum though, because I'm not using a processor with time correction and I'm already glassing the dash I thought it might help considerably putting one T1652 coax in the center facing directly forward just to fill the full front stage. That would leave one T1652 for the rear to be either full range or a specific range (I know I could still do both in the back and one up front but I'm wondering if one will provide sufficient enough presence from the rear to not worry about it). Sorry for such a long post but I wanted to be descriptive enough. Thanks for any help :)

The real question is are you building an in-store demo of what's possible, or just a demo of what someone can walk in and buy off the shelf? If you're going all the way, then don't worry about what's on your shelf, fabricate whatever you want and make it perfect!

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if you are looking for staging then i dont think what you have described is the best solution. having six speakers up front but in all different locations that are each playing a full range audio signal seems to me that it would only complicate the sound stage by having the same audio coming from all different locations. typically when you have a bunch of speakers in front of the listening position, they will all be filtered so each speaker only plays a certain audio range so that they dont interfere with eachother. this is also why true component speakers come with a crossover to filter each component.

now if you just want something that is loud and reasonably clean sounding and impressive to look at then what you are doing sounds like it would be really nice. with all those speakers up front i wouldnt worry about rear fill because unless you plan on putting at least 3 speakers behind you to compete with the front speakers then you most likely wont notice a difference. i think the center speaker would be a better use of the other set of speakers, use one for the center and keep the other as a spare.

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This is going to serve a dual purpose. I just finished attending the Installer Institute. I've worked in mobile electronics for nine years. We do rims and tires, truck accessories and Window tint too. We've avoided fabrication because my store has an excellent reputation built over two and a have decades so we never get into anything new without knowing we are 100% competent and professional. With the training I received there and an extensive prior knowledge I feel comfortable starting on my own vehicle and afterwards starting on small customer projects moving to bigger ones. The purpose of this vehicle is to show fabrication skills as well as advanced knowledge of audio being able to build, design and stage one properly if fabricating. The emphasis is going to be more on showing the fabrication and I'm experimenting with staging. Having six speakers up front is more a matter of showing that I can do kicks, doors and dash. The center speaker was kind of just an afterthought about full front stage since no time delay is being used because this is still my daily driver for now. I thought about doing midbass in the doors with full range in the kicks and dash but Rockford doesn't offer a midbass driver and because this is being sponsored through the store I can't deviate brands or mix multiple. Thanks for the responses :-) its nice getting second opinions when you're venturing into something new with intermediate knowledge.

rockford does make component speakers, why dont you buy 2 sets and put a mid in the kickpanel and door and glass the tweeters into the dash and aim them towards you for a much better staging than just having full range speakers everywhere you look. use another component mid and tweeter as a center speaker if you want. i think this will sound much better overall and you still get to show your skills.

also since you mention a lack of signal processing, this will make it harder to make more speakers sound like a total system rather than just a bunch of speakers. the more speakers you add the more complicated you system becomes and the harder it is for your ears to put together a realistic image because they are hearing the same audio from multiple sources and different distances. when it comes to staging without signal processing, less is more.

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I had all intentions of designing this system entirely around the RF 3sixty.3 but my boss is reluctant to include it in the system saying it is impractical at it's current price point. I disagree but he's my boss, I don't argue.. lol. He told me to look for a more cost effective equalizer from Audiocontrol which we also carry but that almost defeats the purpose. Having a 30 band 1/3 octave eq is still awesome but without time correction it's still just normalizing the signal, not staging the setup. I agree with you soundnsecurity about the less is more approach and not confusing your ears. It's kind of a hard decision in my opinion because you get the most optimal path length from kicks but the closest proper sound stage from the dash being about ear level. I thought the two might compliment the other and be more important than the doors even. But the doors was a must because we get so many requests for fabbing into doors. That is where I thought it might be great to put full range components in the kicks and dash and do a mid bass in the door. Rockford does offer component speakers but they are all 2 part components. It's been a long time since I've seen a 3 part component system from them that offered a 6-8" mid bass driver. Again, admittedly my knowledge of mid bass is a but limits but that's why we ask questions right? :) From my understanding a mid bass driver was limited in frequency range and designed specifically different than component/coaxials and subs. If I'm wrong correct me please :)

So I'm browsing Rockford's site just now and see something I didn't even know they were putting out. They didn't have a midbass driver as I was saying before. We're a Rockford dealer and this is in none of my literature but now the site says NEW Punch midbass/midrange drivers. Model numbers PPS4-8 and PPS4-6. I think these would be great to put in the doors with the T2652's in the kickpanels and dash, being the only two full range up front now. How does that setup sound to you guys?

Oddly to me the PPS4-6 is only listed as a midrange driver while the PPS4-8 is listed as a midrange/midbass driver. They seem to be virtually the same speaker aside obviously from size. The 6" is 2 1/4" deep, 100w rms, 200w max, 85-5k hz range, 93 db. The 8" is 3" deep, 125w rms, 250w max, 90-5k hz range, 95 db. Seems to me the PPS4-6 would sound quite similar as far as utilizing it as a midbass/midrange only. Thanks again for the help and suggestions guys :)

ill start by saying that a 30 band eq is a total shot in the dark to set without a high end real time spectrum analyzer mainly because you cant hear the changes made by adjusting that small of a band. i had an audiocontrol EQL that was basically 1/3 octave bass eq from 30hz up to 500Hz i think and then is went to full octave from 500Hz to 16kHz, it had 13 bands total, it was also a stereo eq so every adjustment had to be made twice and i found it was very hard to set because it wasnt an in dash eq. you couldnt tune it from the listening position.

the RF 3sixty is a nice piece and is actually cheaper than a lot of processors with the same features, the audiocontrol EQX is about the same price and lacks time alignment but i guess you cant really argue with the boss. honestly i wont really sell anything rockford in my shop because i find all their stuff to be overpriced.   

what is wrong with a 2 way component set? the locations of the mids arent as critical as the location of the tweeters, you can put a mid in the door and a mid in the kick panel and install the tweeters up higher to elevate your stage and give you a clearer image. i call it a mid but it is really a mid woofer because the 2 way component set is still a full way speaker when pair together so you wont have any lack of frequency response.

if you absolutely must use coaxial speakers and you dont think it sounds right then i think you would get the best benefit from a 3-way electronic crossover vs. a 30 band eq. the crossover would give you control to filter the signals of each set of speakers to basically make them act like a 3 way component speaker even though they are all coax and this might clean up the sound if you dont like how it sounds with it all playing full range.

i guess the overall point is to keep the tweeters as eye level as possible because that is where your detail is coming from. having any speakers playing high frequencies will draw your ears down to the floor. thats why you always see a component set oriented from top to bottom with the tweeter up high and the woofer down low.

im not saying that your way will sound horrible, anything can sound nice when it is set up correctly and i guess it all depends on what your listening tastes are. im a very picky person and sometimes its best to not take my advise too seriously as far as nit picking the sound stage and elevation.



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I can't edit so I just have to make a second post but.. okay.. I feel a bit ashamed.. lol. I just looked over my 2012 RF book and these are indeed in here we've just yet to pick them up in my store which surprises me. Question still remains though about a setup using these in the doors and if you guys have any experience with them for midbass and as part of a front stage setup.

if you use those mids then you need some sort of crossover to filter them so that they dont play past their operation frequency limits. i think that using them would be better because it would allow you to not have a tweeter playing close to the floor.

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