mcintosh car amp

Hey guys, got a question. In one part of my stereo install i'm using Dynaudio's 3 way 362 setup in my front doors.

Now I have a Mcintosh Mcc404 which is 100 watts X 4 rms 4 ohms, and the dynaudios can handle 200 watts rms.

So I have 2 options, one is to bridge that amp which would give me the 200 watts rms X 2 4 ohms or replace that amp with a Mcintosh mcc302
which is 150 watts rms 4 ohms Not bridged.

I really don't like bridging amps but being a Mcintosh I was wondering if any others bridged these amps?

Also I like matching rms to rms on the amps like in the rear of the car I have JBL GTI 660s which are 150 rms per side and I have another Mcc MCC302 running them

I only run in 4 ohms. This is an audiophile setup and should I give up 50 watts per channel not bridging??

What do you guys think.

Thanks

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

if you are trying to stay at a 4 ohm load across the board on all amps then you cant bridge that amp, it is the same as 2ohm stereo to the amp. id run the 300watt amp unbridged unless you absolutely need the 200W to each speaker and my opinion is that you wont miss the extra 50watts.

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S&S Thanks for the reply. So you're saying run the MCC302 150 rms per side 4 ohm load than to bridge the MCC404? I don't know if I'll need the 200 per side but if they can handle the power I'd like to match what they can handle.

According to Mcintosh ( Just spoke to Chuck over there after I posted this) Said bridging the MCC404 would only lower the distortion from 0.005% to 0.007% and you will still be in 4 ohms per side at 200 rms.

Now i'm not sure what to do. This is a brand new install i'm doing and want the best way for sound quality.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

I think Chuck should reconsider...
.007% is lower than .005% ?? (Not that either are significant).

But maybe his "still per side" means with one speaker per side - ie, 2x 4Ohms @ 200W = 1x 8 Ohms @ 400W (or so I hope!).


PS - post-edited to change .0007%.

Sorry I meant bridging would increase the distortion from 0.005% to 0.007% And that would make the amp 200 watts into 2 channel stereo at 4 oms per side.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

honestly, if you dont intend on competing in a sound quality competition then the .002% difference in distortion is worth the extra 50 watts. most amps couldn't even hope for .007% so you will still have a very clean power supply to those speakers.

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do you mind telling me what the rest of your system will be? not that it really matters, im just curious to know what you plan on using for a head unit, sub woofer and possibly a processor? what kind of car is this stuff going into?

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I own that same amp (it's in one of my cars) and I say it's a real waste of a superb piece of SQ history to bridge it just because you think you want more power. Go ahead if you must, but a McIntosh is for SQ first and foremost and I say use it as a 4-channel amp. If you just want +3db then get a different amp. IMO, anyway.

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DYohn] wrote:

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I own that same amp (it's in one of my cars) and I say it's a real waste of a superb piece of SQ history to bridge it just because you think you want more power. Go ahead if you must, but a McIntosh is for SQ first and foremost and I say use it as a 4-channel amp. If you just want +3db then get a different amp. IMO, anyway.

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it could be worse, at least he isnt using this amp on a set of pioneer 6x9's

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Dyohn,You say it's a waste to bridge but you don't explain why? That was my question in the first place.

I'm getting different feedback but no one is explaining why? Mcintosh told me you won't hear a difference because the distortion bridged is very low and that amp is made to be bridge for folks who want a more powerful 2 channel power amp without sacrificing sound quality( His words)

This was before I posted here.

I feel there would be a difference if this was a cheap amp but wasn't too sure that's why I wanted more of technical feedback.

I know all about sound quality it ( Been in high end gear for over 32 years) happens though Mcintosh doesn't make a 200 per channel X 2 amp.

Also you can never really have too much clean power especially when it's going in a convertible.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

S&s,

I have a stage 4 head unit dex p99rs, front speakers are Dynaudios 362's

rear speakers are JBLs 660 gti'S and 2 12 in JBL gti MKII's in the trunk. Run with all 0 gauge monster cable (power and ground ran to the trunk) 2 Mcintosh mcc 301's running the subs 1 mcintosh mcc 302 running the rear jbls and the questionable mcintosh mcc404 running the Dynaudios. All 0 gauge platinum power blocks and fuse blocks as well. Everything the best, I think out there. It's all going into a beautiful 1998 Toyota convertible that I owned since new. I'm 3 quarters done so far with the install.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

Also, less interesting things as 4 monster cable caps ( 1 for each amp)
Big 3 upgrade all 0 gauge monster cable, Sears die hard Platinum battery, 180amp alternator. probably missing a few things lol.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

cool stuff man, im surprised you can find the space in that car for all of it. the reason for saying that its a shame to bridge that amp is the same reason that its a shame when someone has a supercar and never drives faster than the speed limit. the clarity of those amps are why people pay so much for them and most wouldnt willingly sacrifice the clarity for some extra power. those Mcintosh amps are superamps, i honestly dont know if there is anything better, so it would be a shame to not run it as clean as possible. the gain you would see from an extra 50 watts might only be barely noticable and usually will only benefit you in the lower frequency ranges because they use more power to recreate those low notes.

higher frequencies dont require that amount of power, just because the speaker is rated for 200W doesnt mean that it will draw that much power from the amp because higher frequencies usually present a higher ohm load to the amp and thus you might be getting 90W with a dynamic range of 200W on peaks. this is one of the reasons why crossovers are necessary to keep speakers alive and distortion free. even though your amp is prepared to give out 200W RMS, the actual power at any given time is still resistance based and a speaker's resistance is always going up and down with different frequencies.

this is why you wont really hear a difference with the extra 50W because you are still not getting 50W all of the time. you might notice certain effects like like a low drum hit become more pronounced but thats assuming the sub doesnt take over those notes as well and then you wouldnt notice the difference

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I presume bospet40 knows that 2x the volume requires 10x the power. EG - 100W output is only 3dB louder than 50W.
Furthermore the human ear is unlikely to hear changes under 1dB.

Though bospet40 probably knows that, I am surprised at the number of (car)audio(forum) buffs that don't seem to.


Loudness (short duration peaks) is another issue though probably not relevant here.

soundnsecurity wrote:

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cool stuff man, im surprised you can find the space in that car for all of it. the reason for saying that its a shame to bridge that amp is the same reason that its a shame when someone has a supercar and never drives faster than the speed limit. the clarity of those amps are why people pay so much for them and most wouldnt willingly sacrifice the clarity for some extra power. those Mcintosh amps are superamps, i honestly dont know if there is anything better, so it would be a shame to not run it as clean as possible. the gain you would see from an extra 50 watts might only be barely noticable and usually will only benefit you in the lower frequency ranges because they use more power to recreate those low notes.

higher frequencies dont require that amount of power, just because the speaker is rated for 200W doesnt mean that it will draw that much power from the amp because higher frequencies usually present a higher ohm load to the amp and thus you might be getting 90W with a dynamic range of 200W on peaks. this is one of the reasons why crossovers are necessary to keep speakers alive and distortion free. even though your amp is prepared to give out 200W RMS, the actual power at any given time is still resistance based and a speaker's resistance is always going up and down with different frequencies.

this is why you wont really hear a difference with the extra 50W because you are still not getting 50W all of the time. you might notice certain effects like like a low drum hit become more pronounced but thats assuming the sub doesnt take over those notes as well and then you wouldnt notice the difference

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Thanks man, you make some very good points. And yes space is tight a lot of trial and error as to fitting everything in the car. Most will be in the trunk and my biggest problem i'm facing and being a convertible is WATER, making sure nothing will ever come in contact to it.

On top of the 2 MCC301's ( because of where they are mounted) I've made a gutter system just in case when I open the truck some waters drops would fall into the gutter, not my amps as even more protection.

I think I'm going to use the other amp (MCC404) in my other car and buy another MCC302 to runs the Dynaudios. To me it just feels right. I guess that's why I posted this in the beginning.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

S&S

There are nothing better than the Mcintosh amps I have their home equipment and the car amps are built just as good.

There was a couple of fly by night amp makers that all came and went.(I have most of them) Mac has been around for 64 years well before I was born, lol.

It's like Bryston or Krell getting into car audio. Most folks can't afford these amps and dismiss them as they know of something "better".

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

oldspark wrote:

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I presume bospet40 knows that 2x the volume requires 10x the power. EG - 100W output is only 3dB louder than 50W.
Furthermore the human ear is unlikely to hear changes under 1dB.

Though bospet40 probably knows that, I am surprised at the number of (car)audio(forum) buffs that don't seem to.


Loudness (short duration peaks) is another issue though probably not relevant here.

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It's all well and dandy on paper but you can hear and feel the fullness difference between 100 watts vs 50 watts. This is not what my concern was.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

Why wouldn't I bridge my MC404? Well, first off because I want the highest SQ possible and while the signal distortion numbers you quote are quite low in bridged mode, I am also concerned with noise and heat. Also, the difference in SPL is only +3db so it's not worth stressing the amps for that difference. I'll use my high-end 4-channel amp as a 4-channel amp. If I need a stereo amp, I'll buy one of those.

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OK... 3dB is all you'll gain, at the expense of heat and overall amplifier efficiency. If *I* had anything with a McIntosh badge on it, I'd NEVER bridge them. Period.

Now... From a pure dynamic range POV, more is better. Also period. I am running 1200WRMS to my doors in a three-way system, 300W to the 6.5" Adire woofers, 150W to the Vifa 4" Kevlar mids, and 150W to the JL silk-domes. Seriously speaking, THAT'S dynamic range. I will run some 50WRMS on a regular basis, per door, total... 10dB of dynamic range is a real world, and audible quantity of headroom, even if I rarely touch it.

Now that I've completely confused the issue, I'll tell you exactly what I'd do with those amps...

Bi-wire/bi-amp the fronts on the 4-channel amplifier. HAY-lo... 4-ohm load, 400WRMS to the doors. You can also use this as an opportunity to set the volume of the woofers to match the highs, and you'll appreciate this ability with those 3-way systems. Too bright in my humble opinion.

If you MUST have rears, then put the 302 on them, but keep the gain WAY down. A true audiophile system won't have rears, as far as I am concerned. I'd actually forego the rears altogether and find a really nice 10" woofer (think TCSounds) and run that amp to that. No woofer at all? Run two channels of the 4-channel to the rears, the remaining two channels to the highs of the components and put the 302 to the woofer section of the components. You've still got the bi-wire/bi-amp setup, and you're maximizing the amplifier capabilities, while still using all six channels of them, and staying at 4-ohms, as you desired from the get-go.

My two cents.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

I am shocked that this thread made two pages. Bridging this amplifier for the intended purpose is not going to net anything significant in terms of enjoyable listening. As others state, this amplifier is already built to drive speakers easily without any bridging of channels.

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Chronic, late stage optimist.

fuster wrote:

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I am shocked that this thread made two pages. Bridging this amplifier for the intended purpose is not going to net anything significant in terms of enjoyable listening. As others state, this amplifier is already built to drive speakers easily without any bridging of channels.

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I felt the same way with bridging amps but thought being a Mcintosh there wouldn't be that much of a difference. So I went with 2 Mcc302's instead of 1 Mcc404.

I understand the mcc404 can drive the speakers but I wanted more power to compliment my speakers. There is reasons why they makes different wattage amps, in case you didn't know.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

fuster wrote:

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I am shocked that this thread made two pages.

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that is what discussions are for, so you can ask a question and get multiple opinions so you can make a more informed decision.

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soundnsecurity wrote:

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cool stuff man, im surprised you can find the space in that car for all of it. the reason for saying that its a shame to bridge that amp is the same reason that its a shame when someone has a supercar and never drives faster than the speed limit. the clarity of those amps are why people pay so much for them and most wouldnt willingly sacrifice the clarity for some extra power. those Mcintosh amps are superamps, i honestly dont know if there is anything better, so it would be a shame to not run it as clean as possible. the gain you would see from an extra 50 watts might only be barely noticable and usually will only benefit you in the lower frequency ranges because they use more power to recreate those low notes.

higher frequencies dont require that amount of power, just because the speaker is rated for 200W doesnt mean that it will draw that much power from the amp because higher frequencies usually present a higher ohm load to the amp and thus you might be getting 90W with a dynamic range of 200W on peaks. this is one of the reasons why crossovers are necessary to keep speakers alive and distortion free. even though your amp is prepared to give out 200W RMS, the actual power at any given time is still resistance based and a speaker's resistance is always going up and down with different frequencies.

this is why you wont really hear a difference with the extra 50W because you are still not getting 50W all of the time. you might notice certain effects like like a low drum hit become more pronounced but thats assuming the sub doesnt take over those notes as well and then you wouldnt notice the difference

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S&S, I'm almost done with the install. I'm waiting on 1 more MCC302. Here are some photos.



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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

that is a very interesting install. it must sound pretty nice already, that pioneer has a self tuning EQ doesnt it? or is it the older one that only had a stereo 16 band and you had to set it yourself? either way its a nice install...so many wires and distribution blocks. i really would have ran a dedicated wire to each amp instead of using distribution blocks. and then mounting an amp to the truck in my opinion is just not a smart idea for many reasons, one being that your ground has to be very long and the amp will be vibrated to death from being on the trunk lid with the bass hitting. if it was just a regular amp i wouldnt have said anything to you but im sure you would rather not lose an expensive amp for such a minor reason as being mounted to the trunk lid.

speakers look pretty insane too, are you running the front as a true 3-way system or are the two door speakers tied together?

what kind of RCA's are those?

it sucks man, all of your pictures remind me of how long its been since ive heard my own sound. my 4 channel just died recently and im looking for a new amp so i can have sound again, wish i could get my hands on just one of those amps. ill have enough money soon enough to buy a good amp but until then im dying slowly inside from lack of sound.

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soundnsecurity wrote:

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that is a very interesting install. it must sound pretty nice already, that pioneer has a self tuning EQ doesnt it? or is it the older one that only had a stereo 16 band and you had to set it yourself? either way its a nice install...so many wires and distribution blocks. i really would have ran a dedicated wire to each amp instead of using distribution blocks. and then mounting an amp to the truck in my opinion is just not a smart idea for many reasons, one being that your ground has to be very long and the amp will be vibrated to death from being on the trunk lid with the bass hitting. if it was just a regular amp i wouldnt have said anything to you but im sure you would rather not lose an expensive amp for such a minor reason as being mounted to the trunk lid.

speakers look pretty insane too, are you running the front as a true 3-way system or are the two door speakers tied together?

what kind of RCA's are those?

it sucks man, all of your pictures remind me of how long its been since ive heard my own sound. my 4 channel just died recently and im looking for a new amp so i can have sound again, wish i could get my hands on just one of those amps. ill have enough money soon enough to buy a good amp but until then im dying slowly inside from lack of sound.

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No that is Poineers newest Dex P99rs with 31 band. I'm using the best of the best, lol. The wires alone are oven $1500. And I ran 0 gauge from the battery all the way to the trunk than ran maybe 3 feet max of 4 gauge to the amps plus each amp has it's own cap. The distribution blocks were the best way to go for me. It's not operational yet as im waiting for the other amp to come. Also, I'm doing a top end rebuild on the engine to freshen it up for the summer.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

As far as the trunk mount. it's not going anywhere. It can be installed upside down also the ground is ran 0 gauge to the back as well, there will be no ground problems.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

RCa's are monster cables beyond extreme M1001XLN their best. Dyn's have their own channel as do the JBLs.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

i guess i should have clarified the 3-way question, i was asking if they are running as a true 3 way component system, meaning that they all must be crossed over to blend in with each other and that they dont play the same audio as the others. if they are all running on the same audio signal then it isnt a real 3 way system.

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Yes its a true 3 way.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.

neato, i hope it sounds as good as it should

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I give an update after I finish some of the mechanical this month. My wife keeps pushing me to finish it already. She doesn't understand how time consuming all this is and I only have 2 hands. Lol. Talk soon.

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Don't know what the problem is yet... but I know what it's not.