Printer Friendly Forum Posts - my amp is clipping, possibly tweeters?

I have a total of 8 speakers and a 2 channel amp that is a power acoustik with 540 watts rms on each channel. I have 4 kicker ks60 that run 65 watts rms. I have 4 alpine tweeters type r-1 that I think run at 75 watts each but I can't figure that out for sure. I have 2 tweeters and 2 kicker speakers on each channel. I have 2 tweeters running in series and they are parallel to the 2 kicker speakers that are in series. I should be running at 4 ohms so that should be fine. My question is that each of the tweeters that their own crossover, they are in series so there is 2 crossovers on one series circuit. Could this cause the clipping? Do I need to cut it so 1 crossover is on both tweeters? I do not think it should mater but I am not sure. Also I have the parallel circuits both directly into the amp rather than cut into the same line which I have seen. Can this mater and make the clipping. It is getting worse with time. Also what should I expect the amp to really run rms at. I know they always lie about that and I have never used this brand before to know. I usually buy quality stuff but it was so cheep. Thanks in advance.

Depending on the frequency, your amp is seeing an 8 ohm load per channel. You need to parallel the speakers to achieve a 2 ohm per channel load. This may give you the volume you desire.

littlenicky1 wrote:

My question is that each of the tweeters that their own crossover, they are in series so there is 2 crossovers on one series circuit. Could this cause the clipping? Do I need to cut it so 1 crossover is on both tweeters? I do not think it should mater but I am not sure. Also I have the parallel circuits both directly into the amp rather than cut into the same line which I have seen. Can this mater and make the clipping. It is getting worse with time. Also what should I expect the amp to really run rms at. I know they always lie about that and I have never used this brand before to know. I usually buy quality stuff but it was so cheep. Thanks in advance.

First, do NOT connect crossovers in series, and do not run 2 tweeters with one crossover. You need to connect each tweeter with its crossover in parallel to the amp. Second, what do you mean by "clipping" and how do you know it is clipping?

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If I do that then I would be running at 8 ohms. My amp can only run up to 4. How can I do this so that I only run at 4 ohms with all 3 speakers. I am thinking about adding another set or 2 of tweeters to in a little bit when I can afford it. I am doing the math and running them like I have them is the only way I can get in between 2 to 4 ohmns. How bad is it to run it the way I am? What is causing the issue. I would think that the second tweeter would just be really filtered? What I mean by clipping is that at high volumes the amp turns off for a few seconds until I turn it down.

i am an idiot wrote:

Depending on the frequency, your amp is seeing an 8 ohm load per channel. You need to parallel the speakers to achieve a 2 ohm per channel load. This may give you the volume you desire.

What does the frequency have to do with the ohms? Here is a picture of how I have it wired. It should be at 4 ohms. posted_image

K is for kicker and a is for alipine and all speakers are 4 ohms.

yo lil nicky.....ohm and frequency do have a direct correlation

tbone660 wrote:

yo lil nicky.....ohm and frequency do have a direct correlation

What is it? I have never heard of that before?

If you are running the wrong impedance off a passive crossover, (and you are...) then you are DRASTICALLY affecting the actual crossover points! You'll have a doubling of crossover frequency in one direction, and a halving of the crossover frequency in the other direction. What I mean is this: if the crossover is 3500Hz at 4 ohms, then on the high-pass side, you're actually passing 1750Hz and up, and on the low-pass side, you're passing 7kHz and down! Your amplifier could be seeing well under 2-ohms between 1750Hz and 7kHz! Not to mention the EXTREME risk of popping your tweeters for the simple fact that you're crossing them WAY below their recommended crossover points!

Get those extra speakers off the output side of the crossovers, now, post-haste, and immediately! You are running in a very bad situation, and you'll have problems, and soon!

BTW... That PA amplifier will probably NEVER run 540WRMS per channel. If you're getting half that, I'd be surprised. What's the exact model number? NM... Just multiply the fuse value by 14.4, then multiply by 66%. Now, divide by 2. THAT is how much power that amp can make, realistically, and 2X that for PEAK output! Engine running. Less than that for engine off situations...

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

ever think about running tweets off head unit and amp on doors??

Read from here to the bottom of the page. Notice the last line of the last section of the page.

https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/cross.asp#powera

haemphyst wrote:

If you are running the wrong impedance off a passive crossover, (and you are...) then you are DRASTICALLY affecting the actual crossover points! You'll have a doubling of crossover frequency in one direction, and a halving of the crossover frequency in the other direction. What I mean is this: if the crossover is 3500Hz at 4 ohms, then on the high-pass side, you're actually passing 1750Hz and up, and on the low-pass side, you're passing 7kHz and down! Your amplifier could be seeing well under 2-ohms between 1750Hz and 7kHz! Not to mention the EXTREME risk of popping your tweeters for the simple fact that you're crossing them WAY below their recommended crossover points!

Get those extra speakers off the output side of the crossovers, now, post-haste, and immediately! You are running in a very bad situation, and you'll have problems, and soon!

BTW... That PA amplifier will probably NEVER run 540WRMS per channel. If you're getting half that, I'd be surprised. What's the exact model number? NM... Just multiply the fuse value by 14.4, then multiply by 66%. Now, divide by 2. THAT is how much power that amp can make, realistically, and 2X that for PEAK output! Engine running. Less than that for engine off situations...

Ok so don't get mad I am still a little confused... I am not running a low pass filter at all on this amp. I am only running a high pass filter on both of the tweeters that are in series. The Kicker speakers are mids, component speakers with a tweeter factory inside of it not lows or a sub that are parallel so I would think they would not be affected at all by the cross overs in the tweeter line.

I have read what you said and the post from the other guy talking about crossover, but for some reason I cannot get it in my head why frequency and ohms are related. If I have a 4 ohm tweeter and I put a high pass filter does that change the ohms? Or is it only when I add the second filter on it that it changes it. And I cannot understand what the correlation is. From the picture at the bottom of the page from the link it shows, I think, that when I cross over at a high frequency that lowers the db to -3. Which then if I look at the picture above that and find -3 db it says that I am now at 8 ohms after the crossover?
Thanks for the help I just blew my amp so I guess something was might have been wrong lol, thats why I buy the warranty. My new one should get in soon. My amp is a Power Acoustik BAMF-2600/2 (BAMF2600/2). When I do your math with the 4 25 watt fuses I get 475.2 and I honestly think that is high for this amp.

OK... Not mad, seriously. We all had difficulty understanding in the beginning.

The crossover does not change the impedance that the speaker is. A 4-ohm will always be a 4-ohm tweeter. ABOVE the crossover point, the amplifier is presented with a 4-ohm load. BELOW the crossover point (and bear in mind I am speaking of the simplest of crossovers - a high pass crossover, i.e. a cap in-line) the amplifier sees an infinitely high impedance. Now, a low-pass affair (a coil in series with the mid-bass driver) is the opposite: infinite above crossover point, and 4-ohms below crossover point. When connected to the amplifier, the amplifier sees the summing of these two impedance curves (4-ohms in parallel with an infinitely high impedance, both above and below the crossover point) to arrive at an additive 4-ohm load.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

I am only running high pass filters though? It sounds like you are saying if I run a high and low pass filter it will read the highs at 4 ohms and the lows as another 4 ohms. If I run the high pass filter on the first tweeter then run it though the second tweeter and the second high pass filter it is still only reading the infinitely high frequencies right? Also, I was thinking about using other tweeters in parallel with the alpine tweeters. Theses tweeters do not have a built in in-line high pass filter and I was wondering if the fact that the alpine tweeters are running an in-line high pass filter if the other tweeters without a in-line will be reading high frequencies or if it is only reading the full frequency with highs and lows. If this is not true can I run the high pass filter on the amp and then have it work with the alpine tweeters with the in-line filter as well as the ones that do not have a filter in-line? I would move the kicker component speaker to a different amp if I do this. Thanks for the help I think I almost understand it lol.

Like I said initially, do not connect multiple speakers to a single crossover and do not connect crossovers in series. If you must connect more than one tweeter to a single amplifier channel, connect them in parallel each with it's own crossover.

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DYohn] wrote:

Like I said initially, do not connect multiple speakers to a single crossover and do not connect crossovers in series. If you must connect more than one tweeter to a single amplifier channel, connect them in parallel each with it's own crossover.

Ok thanks.
what about running a tweeter in series with a 6 by 9? I called alpine and they said I could do that but I wanted to make sure. They recommend that I run the 6 by 9 before the tweeter and I would be fine as long as the ohms were the same for both speakers. Sorry for repost my iPod sent it by accident.

I wouldn't do it.

Why don't you take a step back and please clearly explain what you are trying to do? How many speakers are you installing into what car? What amp(s) are you trying to use? Why do you think you NEED to connect a tweeter in series with anything?

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DYohn] wrote:

I wouldn't do it.

Why don't you take a step back and please clearly explain what you are trying to do? How many speakers are you installing into what car? What amp(s) are you trying to use? Why do you think you NEED to connect a tweeter in series with anything?

I have a 2600 watt bamf 2 channel amp. I have 4 tweeters with the inline crossover and 4 kicker 6.5 speakers already. I am trying to put these all on this one amp because it was the cheapest watt per dollar. When wireing it I am having a hard time wireing it to get about 500 watts per channel and keeping the ohms to 2 to 4. I am thinking about buying another 2600 2 channel amp so I can keep the fade on my deck function able. If I did this I would buy a 4 more speakers about 400 watts each to max out the wattage on the amps. I have been trying to think of the best most efficient way to run theses speakers. The alpine tweeters are being a pain because I did not know they had the crossover with them and would messes up ohms when wired. They are fairly low wattage at 75 each and with the high wattage amp causes issues with keeping ohms down as I said before. Any and all help to figuring this out would be great.

Why do you want to have that many speakers in your car? Are the 6.5" Kickers coaxials, meaning they already have tweeters? Where in the vehicle are you mounting all of these?

Stop worrying about the power ratings, every number you've posted is meaningless.

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DYohn] wrote:

Why do you want to have that many speakers in your car? Are the 6.5" Kickers coaxials, meaning they already have tweeters? Where in the vehicle are you mounting all of these?

Stop worrying about the power ratings, every number you've posted is meaningless.

I want to have as much power and loudness as I can. I have a decent bass level but I really feel I need more highs. I already have these speakers with extended warranty so I want to use them. The kickers are the ks60 and I believe they are coaxial speakers. The tweeters are on the side panels next to where your head would be for each person, the kickers are where the factory ones were and I'm thinking about building a small box to put under the seats for the new 6 by 9 s I want.

OK, so I take it both from your description and from the low-end gear you are using that your goal is not sound quality, you only want it loud. Power Acoustik amps are supposedly 2-ohm stereo stable. You MIGHT be able to connect two of your Kicker coax and two of your tweeters (with their crossover) all in parallel to each channel. This will drop to a one-ohm load above the tweeter crossover frequency which might cause the amp to shut down, but try it. Be sure to set the gain properly. If the amp shuts down then you simply need more amplifier channels to do what you want. I recommend using at least a 4-channel amp, and if you are still adding speakers you might need a couple of them.

So, to say that in the simplest possible terms, turn the system off and disconnect power from the amp. Connect the positive wire from each of two Kicker 6.5's, PLUS the positive wires from each of two tweeter crossovers, to one positive terminal of one channel. Connect the negatives from all four speakers to the negative terminal. you should have separate wires now running to two speakers, and also to two tweeters each with their crossover in the line. Do the same for the other channel. Turn the amp gain ALL THE WAY DOWN before you reconnect amp power, then follow the directions on the Hot Topics forum for setting gain. If you find the amp shuts down as you increase the gain, then you simply can't do what you want with that amp.

More speakers does not always mean louder, by the way. You are often better off simplifying a system and choosing the proper equipment to get to the SPL you want rather than adding on more, especially with low-end stuff like you are using where the ratings are meaningless.

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DYohn] wrote:

OK, so I take it both from your description and from the low-end gear you are using that your goal is not sound quality, you only want it loud. Power Acoustik amps are supposedly 2-ohm stereo stable. You MIGHT be able to connect two of your Kicker coax and two of your tweeters (with their crossover) all in parallel to each channel. This will drop to a one-ohm load above the tweeter crossover frequency which might cause the amp to shut down, but try it. Be sure to set the gain properly. If the amp shuts down then you simply need more amplifier channels to do what you want. I recommend using at least a 4-channel amp, and if you are still adding speakers you might need a couple of them.

So, to say that in the simplest possible terms, turn the system off and disconnect power from the amp. Connect the positive wire from each of two Kicker 6.5's, PLUS the positive wires from each of two tweeter crossovers, to one positive terminal of one channel. Connect the negatives from all four speakers to the negative terminal. you should have separate wires now running to two speakers, and also to two tweeters each with their crossover in the line. Do the same for the other channel. Turn the amp gain ALL THE WAY DOWN before you reconnect amp power, then follow the directions on the Hot Topics forum for setting gain. If you find the amp shuts down as you increase the gain, then you simply can't do what you want with that amp.

More speakers does not always mean louder, by the way. You are often better off simplifying a system and choosing the proper equipment to get to the SPL you want rather than adding on more, especially with low-end stuff like you are using where the ratings are meaningless.

Well I started for sound quality but best buy really didn't have amps with the power I wanted. And the ones they did have were like 3 times as expensive and they were just kicker brand so I went for this one instead because I figured the worse that would happen would they would be over rated or break rather than lose sound quality. I have spent a lot of money on top of the line stuff and I have had it break the same if not more than some of the free cheaper stuff I have got.

If I run four speakers parallel I would get a really high ohm rating right or do I still not understand the crossovers. I have them set at 0 rather than- 2-4 or- 6 which from the graph shows should have no effect on the ohms.

The purpose of a crossover is to make a speaker reproduce only the correct frequency range. It does not change the impedance of the speaker. The "-2, -4" etc selections on a high-pass crossover are used to attenuate (cut the volume) of a tweeter so you can properly blend it with a midwoofer.

After all the posts you've made about this same issue, I will make two serious suggestions to you: 1) if you really don't understand go to a professional installer in your area and pay them to do it for you, and 2) Stop being hung up on the power ratings on gear, especially low-end brands. It is not the power rating that makes a system sound good, it is the quality of the components. The ratings on a brand like Power Acoustik are only accurate if the amp is being struck by lightning while you are coasting down the mountain side at 100 MPH, so ignore them. If you are forced to use bargain gear, set it up properly and accept what you get, it's the best you can do.

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DYohn] wrote:

The purpose of a crossover is to make a speaker reproduce only the correct frequency range. It does not change the impedance of the speaker. The "-2, -4" etc selections on a high-pass crossover are used to attenuate (cut the volume) of a tweeter so you can properly blend it with a midwoofer.

After all the posts you've made about this same issue, I will make two serious suggestions to you: 1) if you really don't understand go to a professional installer in your area and pay them to do it for you, and 2) Stop being hung up on the power ratings on gear, especially low-end brands. It is not the power rating that makes a system sound good, it is the quality of the components. The ratings on a brand like Power Acoustik are only accurate if the amp is being struck by lightning while you are coasting down the mountain side at 100 MPH, so ignore them. If you are forced to use bargain gear, set it up properly and accept what you get, it's the best you can do.

I've been installing for about 10 years now and I understand a lot about how this works but I have never installed tweeters with these filters on them before. Everyone keeps telling me different ways to wire them so I am really confused. The Bestbuy installer told me to run the tweeters in series with other tweeters, alpine told me to run them in series with different speakers, someone on this site told me the crossovers change the ohms, and you tell me they don't. The only reason I'm asking is because I blew my amp. I figured it was probably because of the cheap amp but because of the tweeters I thought I would try and figure out if they act differently. I know that the ratings on my amp are off I just wanted to give a general idea of what I'm working with. Looking at the fuses though it does not seem to far off though from rms rateings.

You can ignore the advice of anyone that says to connect speakers in series unless you are wanting to increase their affective impedance/resistance and reduce power.

The tweeter itself does not change impedance, but its crossover might. (Instead of rejecting frequencies (increased impedance), it might dump them instead.)

OK, here's a not real accurate, simplified way to look at it.

A crossover works by adding impedance at the crossover point and adding none in the pass band. Meaning, a high pass crossover - what comes with a tweeter - will effectively become an open circuit at low frequencies and then change into a straight wire to the tweeter above the crossover point. It's more complicated than that, but that's one way to think about it. Below the crossover point, nothing gets through, above it, everything gets through. So you can see why, if it blocks the signal below the crossover point, placing it in series with a woofer is not a good idea. Above the crossover point, the amplifier is simply connected straight to the tweeter and that is the impedance (ohms) it operates into.

If you've been installing for ten years and you don't understand crossovers, then I would not want to know where you've been installing. Or maybe I do, so I can direct people to not go there.

In any case, if you blew an amp there are a million reasons for it but none of them are likely to be due to tweeters. Woofers, yes. Tweeters, no. Tweeters do not require much power and it is almost impossible to overload an amp with tweeters... and an amp that "blows" due to overload instead of going into protection must be a really cheap POS that lacks proper protection circuitry.

So, bottom line: try what I suggested. If it works for you great. If not, then you need to change your plans.

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DYohn] wrote:

OK, here's a not real accurate, simplified way to look at it.

A crossover works by adding impedance at the crossover point and adding none in the pass band. Meaning, a high pass crossover - what comes with a tweeter - will effectively become an open circuit at low frequencies and then change into a straight wire to the tweeter above the crossover point. It's more complicated than that, but that's one way to think about it. Below the crossover point, nothing gets through, above it, everything gets through. So you can see why, if it blocks the signal below the crossover point, placing it in series with a woofer is not a good idea. Above the crossover point, the amplifier is simply connected straight to the tweeter and that is the impedance (ohms) it operates into.

If you've been installing for ten years and you don't understand crossovers, then I would not want to know where you've been installing. Or maybe I do, so I can direct people to not go there.

In any case, if you blew an amp there are a million reasons for it but none of them are likely to be due to tweeters. Woofers, yes. Tweeters, no. Tweeters do not require much power and it is almost impossible to overload an amp with tweeters... and an amp that "blows" due to overload instead of going into protection must be a really cheap POS that lacks proper protection circuitry.

So, bottom line: try what I suggested. If it works for you great. If not, then you need to change your plans.

I never said I have been installing professionally lol. I have done work on the 4 or 5 cars I have had and am always trying to learn about new and different ways to get new sounds to my systems and I've helped people out with their basic systems. I think I might want to do this as a career eventually, or at least try and enter competitions, but I have to learn by seeing, doing and sometimes setting an amp on fire, that lesson was don't buy amps from people on craigslist lol. The people I have worked with have never used any sort of filters except on the amp itself. I like the way you explained that. So would the frequency be changed after the alpine to only high frequencys? When there is a heavy bass line the tweeters basicly don't the power go through to the other side. So theoretically if I put a different tweeter after the tweeter/crossover combination it should receive the the same high frequency, but if I put a sub after it the sub would receive no power even during bass lines?

Do you agree that the crossover might increase impedance and if so how would I be able to tell if mine does? Could I just read the ohms with a volt meeter while it is on?

I am really just trying to figure out all combinations I could do before I pick one. Over the years I keep adding stuff and I find it fun to try and make things work with each other, even if I blow an amp in the process. I consider that a great investment if I can learn something from it.

Firstly, forget any notion of connecting speakers in SERIES - that can only REDUCE output power.

Secondly, as stated before, crossovers are designed for a particular speaker, you cannot add or change speakers.

Thirdly, your crossover may increase impedance, but if so that is only for the rejected frequencies. It has no impact on output - the passing frequency (band) still has the same nominal impedance that it was designed for (eg, a 4 Ohm impedance for a 4 Ohm speaker).
An exception may be filters that use a capacitor to dump frequencies (to GND) which may absorb frequencies/power from other speakers. I don't know if such filters/crossovers are used - I'm not familiar with audio systems etc - others will have to comment.

Fourthly, re your frequency and resistance issue...
Resistance is NOT effected by frequency, but IMPEDANCE is.
Resistance of a circuit is its resistance to DC voltage.
Unlike resistors, capacitor and inductor resistances change with frequency, but such "resistance" is called impedance.
Since audio signals are AC (ie, contain frequencies) and circuits or speakers have inductance (and resistance and capacitance), the load impedance varies with frequency (unless it is purely resistive).
Unfortunately some people use "resistance" as a general term for impedance whereas in fact impedance is the general term, and definitely the apt term for speakers and crossovers.

So in summary:
- Connect speakers in parallel to increase output power but ensure the total impedance is still within the amp's specs. (IE - use the common resistances/impedances in parallel formula, ie the reciprocal of the total/net impedance equals the sum/total of all the reciprocal impedances of all the parallel connected items.
- more speakers may not mean louder (even if the total power has increased).
- your crossover design should be irrelevant assuming they are designed for the speaker. Simply connect crossovers with matched speaker in parallel and treat then them as speakers.