Worst whine Ever in 40 years

Hey friends, I'm back! Haven't been very active lately because I got a new car back in August and took the stereo out of my last car but never installed more than just the deck and speakers into the newer car, a 2001 Honda Civic (from the original owner, with only 54,000 original miles on it!).

Yesterday, I finally found time to install the same equalizer (Clarion EQS746) and 4-channel amp (Boston GT-40) into the Civic that I installed in the 1991 Prizm. I had the same head unit also (Kenwood KDC-355U) in the Prizm. I haven't installed the tweeters and bass blockers into the Civic yet. Ran out of time.

Anyway, in spite of installing every stereo and alarm in every car I've ever owned since the mid 70's (over 40 years!), all of a sudden I have MAJOR WHINE from my system! I'd call it alternator whine, but not sure it's from the alternator. All I know is it's the absolute worst I've EVER had from ANY stereo! I'm serious, I've had Spark-O-Matic decks and Kraco equalizers hooked to Jensen speakers that sounded better than THIS does now! LOL!

So, everything was clear, with no whine at all, up until yesterday when I put the equalizer and amp in. Now I get the loudest whine I've ever heard from ANY vehicle! Funny thing is, I've connected everything exactly the same way I had connected it in the last car, but had no whine at all in that car.

Here's the simple (I know, kinda cheesy, but I wasn't looking for IASCA quality, just decent sound) installation technique I used:
1. Head unit installed 2 years ago still connected to factory radio wiring, including power and ground.
2. Equalizer power and ground shared with head unit connections.
3. Amp laying on carpeted floor under passenger seat, not touching metal. I zip-tied it to seat brackets instead of bolting it down.)
4. Amp power 4 gauge power cable runs directly to battery through thick factory rubber grommet (only one I could get to).
5. Amp grounded to seat bracket bolt.

Nothing out of the ordinary here. What kills me is that everything is hooked up the same way as the last car, yet I had no whine in that one.

So, does anyone think it could be that my amp power cable is too close to a factory wire harness? Would disconnecting deck and eq from stock wires and wiring power and ground directly to battery eliminate the whine?

I'm not ready to do any Big 3 stuff just yet, only because it's only one amp with gains set pretty low. Once I get the sub amp and subs in, THEN I'll consider the Big 3.

Oddly enough, I've had 1,300 watts of power from 3 amps in a Nissan Sentra with 6 speakers and a pair of 12's that had NO WHINE!

Thanks for any advice or opinion. OH, everything is crystal clear and sounds perfect with the KEY OFF. Like it should with car running!

NOTE: I checked a LOT of forum topics on this but couldn't really find the answer I needed.

Nothing special or fancy, but this is what I ended up with yesterday. Wasn't happy with having to mount the equalizer where it is (way too high on dash), but I had no real choices. Like I said, it sounds perfect when the engine is NOT running.
[/IMG]

FINAL NOTE: As in my last car, I'm running the RCA cables to the EQ under the inside of the console along the lower side, not up far. And the amp power wire runs along the door lower panel up through the firewall just above the carpet.

-------------

kenwood_nut wrote:

---

5. Amp grounded to seat bracket bolt.

---

This would be where I would start. Try regrounding the amp. Read through the grounding sticky. Post back if this doesn't resolve your issue.

-------------
My ex once told me I have a perfect face for radio.

5hanks! I'll try that first and let ya know! Grabbed some 8 gauge black wire from storage today.

-------------

Kenwood now puts a fuse in the shield of the RCA jack just as Pioneer has done for years. When this fuse blows the engine noise is horrible. Use an ohm meter and check the resistance between the outer part of the rca jack to the case of the radio. Disconnect all RCA cables from the radio before testing. Let me know what the meter tells you.

i am an idiot wrote:

---

Kenwood now puts a fuse in the shield of the RCA jack just as Pioneer has done for years. When this fuse blows the engine noise is horrible. Use an ohm meter and check the resistance between the outer part of the rca jack to the case of the radio. Disconnect all RCA cables from the radio before testing. Let me know what the meter tells you.

---

So you mean unplug from back of EQ input, but leave plugged into deck? I'll try that.

Also found a few tricks online, like to take unplug the RCA's from the equalizer and go straight to the amp. If noise is gone, the problem is the equalizer ground. If it's still there, the problem is most likely the head unit or its ground.

Crutchfield's tech people suggest to unplug the RCA's from the amp inputs and plug ONE side (red or white, either one) from Left to Right inputs of one channel. If the whine goes away, reconnect cables at amp and unplug them from head unit. If you still hear the noise, your cables are most likely picking up the noise somewhere.

I'm going to try every possible step suggested or found at reputable sites until I find the problem and correct it. But until then, I just don't get to jam while I'm driving, only when I'm parked. UGH! (Pretty busy today, but might get time this evening).

I'll let you all know what (if anything) I find. Like I said, this is the exact system I removed from my last car, which had no whine at all. That's the baffling part!

-------------

Funny thing? I've been reading in other so-called "forums" (nowhere near as helpful as the12volt!) that you can ground all your amps, deck and more to one big bolt. LMAO! Obviously these people have never read or studied the MECP Certification Manual OR the IASCA Competition Manual, both of which clearly state over and over again to NEVER ground more than one thing to one ground point! You should always ground each item to a separate ground (did I not remember this when I grounded my heat unit AND equalizer to the factory radio ground? LOL!). I'm talking more like amps, capacitors, or other stuff. I learned this 20+ years ago, and therefore never ground more than one thing to a bolt or screw. Ever!

PS... NO, I am NOT a member of ANY other car audio and electronics group. Not me! I'm no traitor! THE12VOLT is my sole forum! And all-time favorite! I only find other group's forum posts in google searches.

This is a ghetto system I installed in my 76 Dodge Dart in 1995. Wasn't trying to win any install awards, but did ground each amp plus a cooling fan to separate grounds: see those yellow connectors on the side. (This was after I cut the seat brackets out and formed a sheet of MDF to mount behind seat for a pair of free-air Pioneer 12'). I know, I probably should have grounded a bit further apart, but it worked. I've gotten more professional at it over the years. :)


-------------

Unplug all RCA cables from the radio. Check the resistance between the shield of the RCA jack of the radio, to the chassis of the radio.

Latest updates:

I removed the cheap 8q flimsy wire I was grounding the amp with and regrounded it with a better quality 8g cable, but to the same seat bolt. NO CHANGE in whine.

So then I disconnected the grounds for the head unit and equalizer from the factory stereo black ground wire and grounded them to a solid metal bracket behind the dash. STILL same bad whine when engine running.

Next, I'm going to test the RCA cables. They're high quality ones I bought a few years ago when I was running 3 amps, and they seem decent. Never had whine in the other cars.

I might try a Ground Loop Isolator, only because I happen to have one in my car audio "junk box" that I know is good.

Then I'm going to try grounding the RCA cables as I hear is a good idea.

I'll let you all know if I ever get rid of this whine and how I did it. Until that happens, I just can't listen to music when I'm driving, only when I'm parked with the engine off. UGH!!!

-------------

I suggest you try the advice in the previous post.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

Update: grounded rca cables at deck output and noise instantly reduced by about 95%! Not totally gone, but barely audible unless I rev engine. Onder if I should ground ALL rca cables at eq and amp??? Will try soon. No time right now. But HUGE difference just grounding deck ouput rca cable jacks!


-------------

Turn the gains down on your amplifiers. Turn them all the way down. Does the noise go away?

i am an idiot wrote:

---

Turn the gains down on your amplifiers. Turn them all the way down. Does the noise go away?

---

They're already set down at around 1/4 but I'll check the again in a bit when I get a chance to pull the amp out from under my seat (it's pouring rain right now). I'll certainly let you know. Thanks.


-------------

Oh, forgot to mention HOW it is I grounded my RCA jacks from the head unit ouputs: I ran a ground wire to the metal dash support bracket and connected 2 cables to a Y pigtail. To test this method, I had the engine running and the loud whine was there. I grounded the one end to the car, then touched one outer RCA sleeve and BAM, whine gone! Well, most of it. I then grounded the other one.

NOW my question is this: since this is the first time I've ever had to ground an RCA, I better ask you folks if I would be better off grounding the RCA's to the head unit body OR a separate chassis ground or does it really matter?

If the rain ever stops today so I won't get drenched, I'm going to try grounding the other RCA cables (front AND rear outputs at the equalizer PLUS both sets at the amp inputs).

I already gave up on checking or replacing my RCA cables since they're some of the best I've used in years, and they had NO whine in my last 3 cars. Just apparently need to ground them due to something haunting this Civic. These are the Montster RCA's I'm running from equalizer to amp (2 now, 3rd when I get my sub amp):

This was a few years back when I first used them for my amp rack for my Dodge Stratus:


Thanks for all the advice! Of course I'll chime in once I try grounding more RCA jacks, and try better grounds for amp

-------------

STILL just trying to find someone who KNOWS Hondas, who can tell me FOR SURE if the seat bolt IS or ISN'T a decent ground point. Until then, I'll repost what started all this:

1. In my last car, a 1999 Chevy Prizm, I had this exact same car stereo (plus tweeters) and had everything connected the same way (amp under passenger seat, grounded to seat bolt)... NO WHINE AT ALL.

2. Removed the stuff before I sold the Prizm, then installed the head unit and speakers into the newer car, a 2001 Honda Civic... NO WHINE.

3. Enjoyed whine/static-free tunes since August when the deck and 4 speakers went into the Civic... with NO WHINE.

4. Recently installed the equalizer and amp from the Prizm into the Civic, all connected the same way as it was in the Prizm... MAJOR WHINE.

5. Removed seat bolt, used a wire wheel to clean it up and also wire wheeled the surface of the seat bracket where bolt goes in... still whining.

6. Replaced amp's ground wire with a stiffer brand of 8g... still whines.

7. Removed head unit AND equalizer ground wires from factory radio harness and grounded them to solid dash metal bracket... still whines.

8. Disconnected RCA inputs and outputs to/from equalizer and ran RCA's directly to amp (to see if equalizer was the culprit)... still whines.

9. Ran a ground wire from metal dash bracket to outer jacket of RCA output at head unit... WHINE GONE INSTANTLY... well, 95% of it!

10. Ran a second ground wire from metal dash bracket to external body of head unit... no change.

11. Ran ground wires from body of amp to outer sleeve of RCA inputs at all 4 channels of amp... no change, so I removed them.

12. TODAY: I am going to remove ground cable from seat bolt and drill a hole in my floor and ground it there. I'll see what happens.

13. The last thing I think I need to check are my expensive twisted, shielded Monster Cable RCA's, so I'm saving that for last since they're so neatly tucked away.

Again, just grounding the RCA's at the head unit output solved MOST of the problem, but not all. So, not done checking things.

-------------

Since I'm running out of options, if moving the amp ground to another location doesn't work, I'll be forced to try different RCA cables. I do have a 6-channel RCA I paid big bucks for that I might try. Or, I have some very expensive home audio/video RCA cables that might work. They have some of the thickest outer cover of any I've seen in years.

Not so sure this RCA is any better than the 101XLN's I'm running now, but I can't afford to rush out and buy anything else right now. But this Monster Cable MicroXLN 6-channel is a start to check to see if the RCA's are the issue.



It's what I used in my Dodge Stratus from the head unit outputs to the crossover inputs.


-------------

All this "WHINING" coming from the only person I've ever known who came up with the hair-brain idea of using separate distribution blocks for power, ground and turn-on leads on his amp rack! Yeah, call me crazy. Never saw it done before, but thought it was a good idea. Of course right next to the turn-on block was the turn-on relay! My "concept" was simple: instead of running all the power, ground and turn-on cables to their source, I ran 8g Monster Cables to each distribution block, then 4g Monster Cables from there. Sure made the underside of the amp rack a lot easier to wire!







THIS was the tricky part! Doing my absolute best to avoid crossing signal cables OVER power/turn-on cables! You can only do it so many times until SOMETHING has to cross. But hey, it sure was fun to TRY!


OH WELL... back to the current problem at hand!

-------------

Try turning the gains of the amplifiers all the way down.

I have the gains set down to like about 1/3 and had no whine in the last car. But anyway, here is the latest (FAILED) updates:

Yesterday, I removed the amp ground from the seat rail bolt and regrounded it to the steel dash bracket that goes across the entire dash and is welded to the A-Pillars as suggested by a friend who owns and customizes Honda Civics all the time. NO LUCK! Still have the whine!

SO... I then removed the Monster Cable 101XLN RCA cables from the equalizer to the amp and replaced them with a couple of VERY expensive, highest quality RCA's from my previous home theater system. They have plugs that are 24 karat gold plated and twice the size of any regular car RCA. STILL HAVE WHINE!

Next, I disconnected the power wires to the head unit AND equalizer that were hooked up to the factory radio harness constant 12-volt lead and ran an 8 gauge power wire directly to the battery. STILL HAVE WHINE!

Well, I pretty much give up messing with the RCA cables and power/ground cables. Next comes having the alternator checked. The only trouble is, the car only has 65,000 original miles on it and had 54,000 on it when I got it in August, so you would think the alternator would be fine. But, since places will check them free, I have nothing to lose.

Then, I'm going to try to figure out how to connect an RFI capacitor to the engine. I googled a ton of info on them, and they seem to make sense. However, all the images I found show them connected to either the coil or the alternator. Well, since the 2001 Civic doesn't have that old school coil, I guess my only choice is the alternator hook-up.

So there ya go, over a week of replacing/regrounding/re-wiring/testing and STILL have whine! Like I said earlier, when I grounded the RCA's that run from the head unit outputs to the equalizer, the whine instantly went down about 90% if not more! To test it first, I simply grounded a wire to the dash brace, then turned on the system. While the engine was running and the whine present, I touched that wire to the outer part of the RCA plug and BAM, it was a HUGE loss of whine! So, of course, I shut things down and proceeded to ground the two channels of the deck output RCA's. Guess that's the best I'm going to get for now.

Not giving up totally, but sure am running out of things to test and check and rewire or reground. Only things left are messing with the alternator, and installing an RFI Capacitor.

Would be really cool if someone could tell me EXACTLY how/where you would connect an RFI Capacitor on a 2001 Honda Civic. I'm sure the connection is different on many different cars, so what works on a Ford or Chevy or even a Yugo might not work the same on a Honda. Pictures would be excellent.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go bang my head into a brick wall... pretty much the same as listening to alternator whine!!!

OH, ONE LAST NOTE: As I mentioned a couple times previously, the whine is pretty much only heard with the volume either turned way down or off. If I simply turn up the volume, I don't hear it. What the heck is THAT all about?

THANKS FOR EVERYONE'S ADVICE!!! Notes ARE being made of what you suggest, what I try, and what works and doesn't work.

-------------

"i am an idiot" asked twice to try turning the gains all the way down to see if the noise goes away. 1/3 and 1/4 of the way is not all the way down. Please try what he suggested, then get back to us.

-------------
~wirewise~ Verify all wiring with your meter before making any connections!

Okay, THEN WHAT? Common sense says if you turn your gains all the way down you won't have a music signal.

So, I'm guessing you turn them all the way down ONLY as a test.

Okay, let's imagine I DO THIS? Why can't someone just TELL ME what I'm looking for, and what the outcome would be?

If I still hear whine, then what?
If the whine is gone, then what?

Just suggesting I turn the gains all the way down "then getting back to you" isn't much help.

I'll try it today anyway... and get back to you all since nobody wants to tell me what it would mean if the whine is there or gone.

-------------

It's kind of amusing how many times I've clearly stated that this entire stereo system connected totally the exact same way in my last car that was only 2 years old had NO whine, but now has whine, and people keep thinking it's the amp or an RCA cable or ground... when it was all perfectly fine when it was removed from the last car.

1999 Chevy Prizm had
Same head unit.
Same equalizer.
Same 8g power cables.
Same 8g ground cables.
Same speakers.
Same 12g speaker wires.
Same amp.
Same RCA cables.
Power from same sources.
Grounded at same locations.
but now all of a sudden it's a problem with the equipment?

I truly believe it's more of a problem with some kind of electrical interference from the engine or power equipment. The last car did not have power windows or power door locks or power mirrors or cruise control like this car, otherwise it was pretty darn close to the same.

BUT I'll CHECK MORE STUFF. I'm not giving up just yet.

I'd bet my last dollar that the problem is NOT any of the equipment, especially the amp.

Like I've also mentioned countless times, I've been installing car audio and security for over 40 years and THIS is the very FIRST time I've had whine. Heck, I didn't even have whine when I was sportin' the ol' Spark-O-Matic deck with the Kraco booster and Jensen speakers back in the mid 70's.

But it "must be the amp".

-------------

kenwood_nut wrote:

---

It's kind of amusing how many times I've clearly stated that this entire stereo system connected totally the exact same way in my last car that was only 2 years old had NO whine, but now has whine, and people keep thinking it's the amp or an RCA cable or ground... when it was all perfectly fine when it was removed from the last car....

---

It doesn't matter if the same equipment was in a different vehicle or in an identical vehicle to what you have now with the same exact options.

If the noise is only audible/present when the vehicle is running and it is a whine, then you have a difference in impedance to ground between the alternator (absolute ground when the vehicle is running) and one or more components in your audio system. A meter will help you find the culprit faster than trying anything else. You may find you need a better ground from the case of the alternator to the vehicle chassis as well as from one or more components to the vehicle's chassis. You want the least amount of resistance to the vehicle's chassis with all of these period.

kenwood_nut wrote:

---

I truly believe it's more of a problem with some kind of electrical interference from the engine or power equipment. The last car did not have power windows or power door locks or power mirrors or cruise control like this car, otherwise it was pretty darn close to the same.

---

The mere existence of power windows, locks, mirrors, or a cruise control will not create alternator whine.

In some cases, alternator whine can be diminished or eliminated by adding a capacitor to the output of the alternator. The size will vary, but a 500 micro farad cap should definitely work :D

-------------
the12volt • Support the12volt.com

UPDATE: Turned both gains all the way down and whine is GONE! But the slightest increase and it comes back. Is my amp bad, or just what's picking up the static? Thanks for the suggestion.

-------------

[QUOTE]The mere existence of power windows, locks, mirrors, or a cruise control will not create alternator whine.

In some cases, alternator whine can be diminished or eliminated by adding a capacitor to the output of the alternator. The size will vary, but a 500 micro farad cap should definitely work :D[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that info! I was thinking something in the power stuff was emitting noise into the stereo. I've had friends suggest getting an RFI capacitor but wasn't sure exactly how to connect it on a Civic. All the pictures I've found on Google show old-school alternators and coils hookups. Also found out a typical automotive condensor is pretty much the same thing, and THOSE are super easy to find laying around probably any friend's auto repair shop or even a wrecking yard.



-------------

With the gains all the way down, are you able to reach your desired listening level?

i am an idiot wrote:

---

With the gains all the way down, are you able to reach your desired listening level?

---

Barely. Only if I crank the volume a bit, but I still have a bit of whine.

Thinking seriously about a new amp anyway. Running out of options on what to test and reground. As I mentioned, grounding the RCA outputs on the deck helped drastically, but not totally. New RCA cables made no difference. Moving the head unit and equalizer grounds made no difference, and I'm on my third ground point for the amp with no luck. Sounds to me like my last resort is that RFI capacitor. If THAT doesn't take care of the whine, sounds to me like I just remove the amp and equalizer and go back to head unit level of volume. UGH!

The only thing I can think of that the amp might be picking up noise from is the wires under the passenger seat, but even pulling it out and away from those wires made no difference.

Gains are now set lower than they have ever been. Still hear whine with volume all the way down though.

-------------

Have you tried running a heavy ground from the case of the alternator to the chassis of the vehicle? A little bitty RFI cap is not what I mentioned, but you can try it after running a new ground to the alternator case if the whine is still present.

-------------
the12volt • Support the12volt.com

Have you read the sticky titled "What is a proper ground"?

-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.

the12volt wrote:

---

Have you tried running a heavy ground from the case of the alternator to the chassis of the vehicle? A little bitty RFI cap is not what I mentioned, but you can try it after running a new ground to the alternator case if the whine is still present.

---

No, haven't tried that, but I certainly will. Thanks for the tip! The RFI cap was suggested by several of my personal friends, but I still haven't tried one. I like the bigger ground idea.

-------------

forbidden wrote:

---

Have you read the sticky titled "What is a proper ground"?

---

I'll read it right now. Thanks!

-------------

Your engine block grounding is weak and that is why you're getting the whine. You should add a couple of good quality grounding straps and/or do the big 3. If that doesn't get it I would be surprised. Whining is most often associated with some cabling issue. Next to good connections, there is NOTHING more important than good grounding, especially when it comes to audio.

-------------
Pegleg Charlie
Builder-Charlie Cannon Subwoofer Enclosures and general troublemaker at
LMMFAO Corp.(LOL)

pegleg1960 wrote:

---

Whining is most often associated with some cabling issue.

---

NEVER heard THAT theory. In fact, everything I've read says that whine is most often associated with a grounding issue. Thanks for the tip anyway! Like the Administrator also suggested, I'm going to ground the alternator and engine. Just been super busy lately, so I've just been putting up with the whine for now. Annoying as heck, but tolerable. Don't hear it with the volume up.

As I mentioned earlier, I've regrounded the amp and head unit and even the equalizer, PLUS I grounded the RCA's at the deck outputs (which took away MOST of the whine). Even re-ran the head unit & EQ power wires directly to the battery with no change. So yeah, the only thing I really have NOT tried is add engine grounds or a better alternator ground. Several of my car stereo enthusiast friends have suggested and RFI capacitor, but I still haven't tried that either. The thing I find most odd is how with all the power things AND air conditioning in this car, it certainly must have a bigger alternator than the last car, which had no whine. So I would assume that this Civic alternator would be more stout. Guess not.

I'll certainly let you all know WHAT it is that remedies the whine when I conquer it. I do appreciate all the suggestions.

-------------

Ineffective grounding is a cabling issue. It's a lack of sufficient ground cabling that's causing your issue.
I have around 20 feet of 0/0 gauge cable with solid copper ring connectors that weigh about 40 grams each. I ran the big three, and also additional grounds from frame rails to chassis, bed to chassis, and bed to frame rail.


-------------
Pegleg Charlie
Builder-Charlie Cannon Subwoofer Enclosures and general troublemaker at
LMMFAO Corp.(LOL)

WHINE 100% GONE!!!! What I did this time? Grounded equalizer to head unit chassis (per MECP Study Guide), grounded h.u. RCA outs to h.u. chassis, and moved RCA's going from deck to equalizer about an inch. Not sure exactly which step did the trick, but ALL WHINE IS NOW GONE! I'm smiling again!

-------------

MY ASSUMPTIONS WERE CORRECT! All this time, it WAS the head unit causing the static and whine! Yep, after trying different ground points, fatter cables, grounding the RCA's to the deck body, grounding the equalizer to the deck body, buying the best RCA's I could find, and trying every other trick in the book... I just bought a new head unit, and ALL whine is 100% GONE! Even with air conditioning blasting and headlights on! No matter what I turn on or try, NO WHINE. So yeah, it WAS the head unit. I kept thinking it might be, because moving all the same equipment from one car to another and suddenly having whine made no sense at all. By the way, the "new" deck is actually a gently used Kenwood Excelon KDC-X799 that I picked up for $70 on OfferUp. Only problem with this deck is that I can barely see the display during the day! Oh well, I'm just happy to have the whine gone!

-------------