Printer Friendly Forum Posts - best sub and amp?

Hi people,
this might be too general a question, but I am really looking to buy a new subwoofer and amp for it, that will really satisfy me. My requests are 1) Top sound quality and 2) space. (by space I mean the less space it takes in my trunk, the happier I'll be). I don't mind spending more money but want something of really good quality. I now have Apline Type R 12" and Alpine MRD 500 digital amp but never have been satisfied with its quality. I admit the power is a lot, but quality wise, I am quite dissapointed. I've tried different cabinets, sizes, ported, non-ported, settings but really think I need something better(best if I can find one). I have ALpine MRD F540 for the 4 doors(4 channel) and I absolutely love it's quality. However with the sub/MRD 500 and Type R 12" combination, its sadly a different story.

Thanks a lot in advance for when I get to find that and buy it!
Mark

The type R is actually a pretty darn good sub. But as in ANY audio gear, you have to like how it sounds. If what you're seeking is more SQ (sound quality) then here are a few suggestions. 1: stay with a sealed enclosure always for highest SQ. Make sure the enclosure is completely sealed (all seams and woofer mounting area are air tight.) Make sure it is the correct size for the speaker. 2: stick with a good mono sub amp like your MRD 500. In fact, this is a great amp and you should stick with it. 3: If you have tried the Type R in a proper sealed enclosure and have the amp set up correctly and you did not like the SQ, before you buy new gear try moving the sub to diffrerent locations in the vehicle. If it's in the trunk, try facing it forwards, then backwards or to the side. Try firing it towards the cabin and then flip it around so it fires towards the rear. Try moving it around to the front of the trunk and then to the back. Spend enough time at each location to listen and evaluate any difference. 4: The MRD 500 amp includes some very sophisticated digital electronics for time alignment and EQ. Read the owner's manual carefully and try adjusting the settings. You may simply be hearing acoustic phase cancellation or improper EQ and need to correct for it. 5: If you remain unhappy with the sound of the Alpine, the next steps up in quality include speakers from companies like Eclipse, JBL, Nakamichi, Diamond, Dynaudio, Morel, MB Quart, some of the drivers from Planet Audio, Adire and Orion, and if you really want esoteric try to find a Magnat. Realize that (depending on which one you have) the Type R retails for less than $200. To step up in quality to the level I am suggesting will require about two to five times that much and more.

Good luck!

-------------
Support the12volt.com

Thanks DYJohn,

I have tried almost all the things you mentionned. I have now a sealed enclosure (completely sealed with no gaps). I tried filling it wtih polyfill today. I tried it facing back, then to the front, then to the side and even "lying on its back" meaning firing up in the air. They all sound very powerful but I don't hear the quality I am looking for. Not like my home system. I dont know if that is called reverberation or soemthing else but just not what I'd like to enjoy. I did not know about Eclipse and all the ones you mentionned. I am keeping a budget of $1000 for 1 sub and 1 amp(for the sub). IfI can get a Magnat, I'd be very happy. So I am now onto my new search for a magnat! Can I keep my Alpine F540 for the 4 door speakers and use Magnat or Nakamichi or one of the higher ones for the sub alone and still have overall quality?

Thanks for all the names I did not even know most of them.

Mark

You might try listening to an Eclipse aluminum 10" sub. You could use the 4 ohm dvc version with your alpine MRD-M500 amp and it get 500 watts (which is the reccomended rms power). They sound reall really good in small sealed enclosures, and retail for around $350 in the U.S.

In my opinion the best all around sub on the market today (meaning sounds really good and can generate prodigious SPL) is the JBL GTi series. Take a look and see if you can find a W12GTi. I doubt you can find a Magnat in the states, as they are not directly imported here. Now and then some of the more esoteric shops will have one that was brought in. The Bulldog sells for around $1000 for the raw speaker. I recomend you keep your Alpine amp if you like it. It is a good amp.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

I'm looking at the website for the W12GTi and had a few more questions. If I get a 10" instead of a 12", will the quality go down by much or will only the SPL be lower on a 10" instead of 12"?
Next question is how can I find out whether its my Amp that needs to be changed or its teh sub that needs to be changed for improved quality? Also I looked at the JBL BPx1100.1 mono sub amp (2200 W), is that a good amp?

The 10" is better in the upper bass frequencies and the 12" tends to have lower response capabilities. They both are about the same sound quality. In general a 12" can generate more SPL, but this is not always true. All the JBL amps are very good.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

The best... Try this set up.. A 12" Kove T3 Armageddon with a US Amps 600x.. It's going to be a lil' pricy but like you said you are willing to pay for quality.. US is a Class A/B amp... excellent sound quality.. the clarity is just insane.. 105 signal/noise ratio and that's definetly under-rated.. The subwoofer is excellent also.. I have last years model of the same speaker they made some changes but it's still a power handling machine! posted_image

So let us know what u decide! Good luck anyhow!

I hate getting into brand arguements but I have to comment on the post by dbdraggirl. I agree that Kove speakers are fantastic - for SPL. They handle all kinds of power and can generate very high SPL output. But for high-end SQ applications - which this one is - I cannot recomend Kove. US Amps does make some very fine amplifiers and crossovers.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

Thanks for the infos both dbdraggirl and DYohn. By the description of Kove T3, I thought I found what I was looking for, but again, had to apply my brakes when I read that it is great for SPL only. I wish I could hear it before buying but am not that lucky as no one I know has it yet.

I am willing to do just about anything for SQ. If my budget is not enough, I'm willing to cross my limits a little bit, to get SQ.

After I get that, my next worry will be to find a safe place to hide the amp from thieves..

Please don't take my opinion for any sort of gospel. It is simply my opinion. But you have hit on the REAL key: if at all possible listen before you buy. My recomendations are only intended to get you out there auditioning systems and to give you a few hints on where to look. If you find one you like - no matter the brand - then by all means go for it!!

-------------
Support the12volt.com

One thing I am not sure about yet is whether I should change my sub or my amp. Sometimes I feel like its the MRD500 amp thats not outputting good SQ. I've tried different settings on the digital amp, even went with the values recommended by Apline's Tech Support.
At times I think its the Sub that's not good enough to handle the output from the amp. I don't know of an easy way other than try a different sub or amp for testing. Maybe I could bring the sub to my home system and test it there, however its a 2ohm and my home system is an 8ohm setup.

Are there any good outlets where I can hear high end speakers/sub/amps? Circuit city does not have much choice and Best Buy was not any better really.

With the enclosure you are using now with the type R: what is the airspace in ft^3 and dimensions of the box? A small change in either of those measurements might make a huge difference in the sound in your car.

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

Their are probably shops in your area that sell higher end equipment then you will find at any of the big box stores. Look in the yellow pages for places, or go to car shows/cruise nights and talk to people with systems, chances are they will know of some good shops in the area.

-------------

It might be possible to try out your Type R sub in your home. If it is dual 4 ohm then you can wire it in series and get an 8 ohm load. I'm not sure what amp you would use though. Also you might try going to one of the better car audio shops in your area and they might let you try your sub with a different amp that they sell, or let you use a different amp they sell with your sub in your car.

Good idea customsuburb! I'll try that next. How did I not think of that. You're so right, I can wire the two 4ohm coils in series to get my 8 ohm!

Ok, right now I brought my 12" type R and the MRD M500 amp to my apartment. I am just looking for the 12v power-supply which I cannot remember where I kept. As I find it, I am going to test the amp with my home sub which is an Infinity 1000 Watt sub. If that sounds good then the MRD 500 is ok. Then I plan to test the Type R sub with all three of my home systems, Harman kardon, JVC and Kenwood. I think by then I'll have tested it all and only thing left would be a shop. I'l post the results as soon as I find my powersupply. Might be too late for testing tonight unless I don't mind my neighbours calling the cops on me for causing noise pollution.

Does your home sub not have a built in amp then? What you could do, since you seem to have plenty of av gear to use, is to use maybe the Harmon Kardon amp in 2 channel stereo and run the sub bridged on those two channels (positive from sub going to left channel positive on amp and negative from sub going to the negative on the right channel). This should work (I have a sub bridged on a home onkyo amp and it works fine). Then to test your MRD-M500 I would just leave it in your highlander and bring one of your home subs out to it and connect it and listen to it inside the car.

Sorry my mistake. Yes my home infinity Sub does have a built in Amp. You're absolutely right. So I can test my sub at home.

Now I have only one sub at home (others have big 3 way- speakers), the Infinity one, which is huge and really heavy to even try it in my highlander. Also that would need 110v ac. Maybe I can try it with the power inverter, but don't know if it is worth the trouble, because the Infinty sub that I have sounds awesome at home and probably will sound as nice in the car too.

I just tested my sub with my home system. Sounds flat. Ahhh. This is so frustrating. Even my regular JVC floor standing 29" high speakers hit harder (with quality) and sound so much more pleasing than my Type R. I surely must be doing something very wrong. I now measured the dimentions of my box. It was originally having an Infinity 12" sub in it (At Circuit City) I asked them that I only wanted the box for my Alpine R. So the internal dimensions are :
14" wide, 13.5 inch high, 9" deep. I filled it with a low class (pillow fill) from a regular pillow from the closest store where I live. I 'll order polyfill from partsxpress but dont know if I need 1 lb, 2lb or 5 lb to fill. Do I have to fill it tight or loose? Also I dont know if the size of my box is wrong.

That box for your Type R is tooo small. It is around .65 cf and the reccomened box size for these subs is around .85 cf. You could try polyfill but it won't help much (stuff the box about 3/4 full of it). How did you test your Type R inside? Also one last thing to try would be to keep it wired in 8 ohms and see how it sounds on your MRD-M500 amp in your car. I would try using the reccomended box size first though.

Ok then the box is too small.. however, I did not have much luck with the other one (SBR-122CR) that I still have (and is at my brother's apartment now) which is made by Alpine, prefilled with another Type R 12",but I did not find the quality of bass sound of that really any better either. Here's the details of it:
posted_image

It is the SBR-122CR 12" Compound Reflex Subwoofer Box 2ohm (4ohm + 4ohm). I tried this for about 2 months and thought maybe I have to break-in my sub. That did not work either.

At home, I did not bridge it but used the two 4ohm coils in series and made it 8ohm and connected it to the left channel speaker while keeping my right channel to the regular 3way speaker so I could compare with my balance. I then even tried to make the speaker have 4 ohm by using just one coil. Still not much difference in sound quality. I even tried in parallel to effect 2ohm. Nothing made a big advancement in quality.

I would try to build a .85 cf box and see how it sounds, because .65 cf is on the really really small side for this sub.

markcars wrote:

So the internal dimensions are :
14" wide, 13.5 inch high, 9" deep.

If these are accurate internal measurements, I see .85 ft^3, taking the sub's .128 displacement into consideration.

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

I am willing to build a larger box than the small one I tried last, but I don't understand how it will be better since I already tried the Alpine box SBR-122CR
whose dimentions are:
(W x H x D) inches 22-1/2” x 17-9/64” x 16”
That did not sound any much better really. That's why I removed it after 2 months and put back my small box that sounded almost same.

Yes stevdart, they're quite accurate internal measurements to the 1/8th " tolerance level. I took my tape measure and actually measured the insides of the box last night.

stevdart wrote:

markcars wrote:

So the internal dimensions are :
14" wide, 13.5 inch high, 9" deep.

If these are accurate internal measurements, I see .85 ft^3, taking the sub's .128 displacement into consideration.

I used the volume calculator on this site and got .65 cf square. If you subtract the sub's displacement from that enclosure then it =.52 cf square

14 * 13.5 * 9 = 1701 / 1728 = 0.984 - .128 = 0.856

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

Try it on the site calculator is all I can say....

I got the same thing. Put in a zero for wall thickness when determining inside dimensions.

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

Look markcars, the answer here is really very simple. You have pretty effectively determined that you don't like the sound of the Apline sub you have. So sell it. Go to a good shop and listen to other subs until you find one you do like. Buy it. It's really as simple as that.

-------------
Support the12volt.com

I guess I got to go to a shop and do some testing then. Saturday will be it most probably. The only reason why I tried my best to keep the Alpines was that I heard many people say good things about it and was wondering if I was doing something wrong and could fix it.

If you want something that sounds really good in a small encolsure I had fairly good luck using the Focal Kevlar series subs.You could use your alpine amp and then just buy the sub. I would think you'ld be real happy with that set up

-------------
double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Thanks. I will take a look/ask for a test for that one too.

Yesterday I went to this "Audo Sound Pro" shop in my neighbourhood and had the Pro do some testing. At first he asked me "How much are you willing to spend?" to which I said "I am willing to pay whatever you want provided you can make me hear real good pleasing bass and I am not at all interested in loudness/SPL, just sound quality". He then came to my car and played my sound system so loud that either he was deaf or was trying to make me deaf. After playing with the settings for a while, he then went to the shop, cut off a JL 12" sub that he had on his demo wall, asked his assistant to put it in a box and hooked it up to my MRD-M500. I told him that I think its my amp that needs a change. He said "You have one of the best amps I sell" and proceeded to connect the JL to my Alpine amp. Then he started pressing "Mode" on the amp, however did not change any setting but scrolled through all the settings about 3 times. Then he said now we're set, lets do some testing from the front seats.. Again he turned the sound up to almost unbearable volumes when I could not even talk and be heard. Then he said how's the sound now? Is this not better? I really did not see any difference, and I am convinced about changing the Amp really. He still said he thinks it was better. I said how much do you want for this? He said $500. Since I did not feel a real difference in sound I told him exactly waht I felt: I want something real pleasing, but this did not show much difference at all. So then he said that real good sound can only come if I had 3 speakers in the doors, a Woofer, a midrange and a tweeter. No other way can nice sound be heard. The BMW's have it that way and Porsches have it that way too he said. Also he added that it is easy to put a good sound system in a Honda Civic for example, but in a SUV, its almost impossible to have a good sound system. Well then I said let me think about what I want to do and left the shop.

umm... I would find a new shop. He should have let you run the show with the volume control (indeed it does sound like he's deaf). You might try to go back to the shop and try working with a different person. Did he even let you listen to your own music? You might try listening to a Focal sub like raven suggested. The shop person was really wrong about the statement about being able to put a good sounding system in an suv. You could put 8" mid bass drivers in your door (you would have to break out the fiberglass) and then make kick-pods for a component set. You could then also add a 10" sub in the back. Really though, if you wanted pleasing sound you might try going to a respectable shop in your area and have them fiberglass some small enclosures into your doors for some mid bass drivers, then have them make kick-pods for your other speakers. This would really bring the music more up front (like the drums in a song). It would probobly come in around $1000 or so if you bought two decent 8" woofers (like focal's or even just inexpensive, yet good dayton 8" woofers), have a shop fiberglass enclosures in your doors, and then fiberglass kick-pods.

Well I read most of the posts but all I can suggest is what type of bass you want, bass you can feel, or bass you can hear like me I like bass i can feel. Me at first I had two jensen plastic blue cone subs I forgot the model number with a fosgate amp pushing 150x2 rms but then I wanted some out of this world bass so I got 3 audiobahn 1206T with 3 Kole Audio 2400 digital amps running them at 2Ohm's thats like 3300 Watts RMS plus my highs !! I can feel the ground shaking when I step out and leave the door open If you shop around you could probably get 2 audiobahn 1206T' and 2 Kole Audio Q1-2400 amps for about $800 dollars.

like i typed up there It depend what you want your subs to do, shake the ground or hear from a distance if you want them to shake the ground get amps with high wattage for the RMS for lows (frequency) . what you mentioned you had (Alpine system) maybe get a equalized to get the exact frequency for your subs. probably thats all you need try it

There is not a full equalizer, but different levels of equalization settings both on the HU and on the two amps I have where I can cut off the high frequencies and keep a "window" of frequencies that i would like to pass through to the output (Q factor). The amp for the 4 doors are terrific I should say,I am very pleased with them. It is only the amp for the sub that's causing me no happiniess(or maybe the sub itself or both). And I don't want to feel the ground shake, all I want is to feel like I am at a real concert, hearing the real instruments, as much as true to life as I can get. (Perhaps something as pleasing and true to life as my home sound systems). Still shopping around and researching.

I think he wants tight punchy bass. Dayton 10" sub and Peerless 10" sub I think the last the (the Peerless) is pretty good. I couldn't find much focal stuff on partsexpress.com though.

You're absolutely right. I want tight, punchy and clean bass with nothing more than what was on the original recording. Somewhat like the sound you hear at a movie theater maybe?

Do you use an equalizer at home, by any chance?

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

No I don't. All my (3) systems only have settings for bass and treble boost and cut. JVC has knob for bass/treble boost/cut. Harmon Kardon same thing, two knobs plus one more button for extra bass. Kenwood with Infinity speakers and sub has digital controls for treble/bass boos/cut. No real "equalizer" in any of my systems.

I think a single 10" sub is defnitely for you. If you buy a decent 10" sub and put it in a sealed box built to spec, then it should sound just about right (you might even try an 8" sub). Try going back to your local shop and tell them exactly what you want if you havn't already. Try listening to al of the good 8" subs they offer and see if you like any of them. You should be in control of the volume and play the cd you want. If they won't let you do that then move on to a different shop, or order from an authorized on-line store that lets you listen to the product and return it within a certain amount of time if you don't.

Okay, here is what you do. Find the most high-end dealer you can find, tell him you will give him a blank check to duplicate your home hi-fi sound in your car. He will come to your home, listen to your sound, and duplicate it for you. That is, if money is no object...

-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

I've had similar experiences at car stereo places. Sometimes the people they employ blow my mind. - They have no idea what "sound quality" means. I was at a store and the salesman was trying to push one brand of components on me because, "they hit hard and play really loud and you can feed them 250 watts each." I told him I don't listen to music loud, wouldn't be feeding them that much power, and wanted to focus on sound quality. He kept insisting that these were the best for me and would reluctantly demo other speakers I wanted to hear for me. This is a prime example of a horrible car audio salesperson. Unfortunately, a lot of the punks some of these places seem to employ seem to know jack about sound quality.

However, there are people out there that know what they are talking about: Luckily the installer happened to walk into the demo room and overheard our conversation. He then said, "Why are you trying to sell him those? He obviously doesn't care about the power handling." This installer told me to wait a few minutes and then he came back and told me what he liked and disliked about how the various speakers sounded and seemed like he was willing to do A/B tests with me all day on -my- music. It was a good experience and I finally decided on a good mix of price / quality that I liked.

Anyway, my point to the whole story is that some people in the car audio industry obviously don't have a clue about sound quality. Others do - seek them out! Another piece of advice I used when looking for car audio: take in a disc of your music that you are very familiar with and want to hear. If possible demo it on a really high quality home audio setup before you demo the car audio equipment. This way you'll know how the cd is actually supposed to sound. - my 2 cents :-)

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Ok I've done some more research and I think so far I like the specs and what I read about the Focal 27WX - Utopia 11" Subwoofer. I wish it was 10" but I'll take that. Although they will not fit in pre-fabricated enclosures, that will force me to make my own box this time. They're a bit expensive though (around $600 just for the driver). Reviews on it seem very interesting.
If this does not do it, I'll proceed to changing my sub's amp.

Good luck. I think you will be happy with it.

Wow that sales guy was an idiot. I like the fact hat at least he took to sub out and put it in your car as opposed to just using the board. But for him to not let you control the volume and to not actually change anything on the amp even though he made it apear he did was sp unprofessional. Its like my idio....er salesman not bringing their own demo music to work and just playing whatevers laying around. I love "professionals"

-------------
double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Where can I buy MDF? Does home depot have it?I looked on the www.homedpot.com site but nothing comes up on MDF. Is there any other kind of wood or substance I can use other than MDF?

I just burnt a hole in my pocket (happily) by ordering a Focal 27WX Utopia Sub and would like to get the remaining stuff so I can put it together when I receive it. Also I am not too sure as to what dimentions my box needs to be. I looked at the specs but not yet sure. I want to have the smallest suggested box as per required specs for this driver without sacrificing any quality.

you can get it at home depot its 19 dollars were i live for a sheet the size of a sheet of plywood

-------------

Cool. Thanks a lot for the info! I'll run by the Homedepot next to whereI live to see if they have it too. And the cloth that goes over the box, do you have any suggestions as to where to buy it? I havent looked at partsxpress but I think they might have it. Thanks again.

Parts Express has it (Carpet).

sounddomain.com also has a load of carpet / vinyl options.

I just received my speaker today. I haven't gathered all the parts for the box such as carpet, acousta stuff etc etc etc but did a comparison test wtih my Alpine 12" type R next to my Focal Utopia, both in similar conditions. Connected one to left channel and other to right channel. I think its heaven and hell difference. With this sub, the sound is so nice, I can almost sleep thinking I am getting a back and neck massage. wow is what I said. And I always thought speakers are speakers. Now I realise that I was wrong, terribly wrong.

Glad to hear you like your selection! Are you testing it in car?

-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Hello - Along the lines of getting an amp and subwoofer........

I recently got a I purchased the Sony CDXF5700 52-Watt XM Radio-Ready CD Receiver with MP3 Playback and 3 Pre-Amp Outputs along with four Infinity Reference INI 6002I 6.5" speakers. I know it's nothing fancy especially after hearing the way it sounds in comparison to the factory system. I'm almost ready to remove it all and return it and save myself the expense minus the headache of Circuit City's installation crew of course. However, since I didn't get an amp and subwoofer, should I? Maybe this would make all the difference? I don't know because I'm not up on car audio........will someone gimme a hand with this? Thanks.

kfr01] wrote:

Glad to hear you like your selection! Are you testing it in car?

Not yet. I tested at home. I will be testing in car as soon as I get all my parts that I ordered from partsxpress for the speaker building project, then I'll get 1" MDF or double layered 3/4" and get to work. I cant wait to test it in car. (Even at home, there is a vaste difference in quality between the 2 subs. good vs superb)

jonwaterhouse wrote:

Hello - Along the lines of getting an amp and subwoofer........

I recently got a I purchased the Sony CDXF5700 52-Watt XM Radio-Ready CD Receiver with MP3 Playback and 3 Pre-Amp Outputs along with four Infinity Reference INI 6002I 6.5" speakers. I know it's nothing fancy especially after hearing the way it sounds in comparison to the factory system. I'm almost ready to remove it all and return it and save myself the expense minus the headache of Circuit City's installation crew of course. However, since I didn't get an amp and subwoofer, should I? Maybe this would make all the difference? I don't know because I'm not up on car audio........will someone gimme a hand with this? Thanks.

If your factory system is not very high quality, you will be better off adding an amp and a sub. Of course you would have to do more work such as matching the sounds such that the sub does not overpower the remaining speakers or vice versa. Also if you have a good quality head unit or mp3 player, it will only do justice to the music to pass through a good quality amp and speakers/sub to enjoy the system to its fullest.

Depending on how much you want to spend, your options are almost unlimited.