Does the box matter?

what benefits with a box like this    have over just a regular box like this ???

NONE, bandpass sucks.

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The top box looks like a bandpass box although I can see if there is a cover over the front. If it has the cover then its called bandpass and offers one advantage. The Bandpass box is usually pretty damn loud but the have piss poor frequency response. The box on the bottom is your basic sealed encoluse which is used by many on the car audio customers out there. They arent as load as a bandpass under the same conditions but generally sound far better

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

The "box" (I hate that term for an enclosure) matters as much or more than the speaker.  I suggest you start HERE and learn the differences.

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DYohn] wrote:

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he "box" (I hate that term for an enclosure) matters as much or more than the speaker.  I suggest you start HERE and learn the differences.

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I actually disagree with you here.  In my quest to figure out how I wanted to do my front speakers for my home theater, I learned something from my boss.  In designing a speaker system, the most important part is the crossover.  It is what gives the speakers it's voice.  He said that speaker selection is second in importance, and enclosure being a distant third.  Now with subs, the crossover is a little less since the subwoofer plays so little of the source material.  The speaker design is very important though.  It will determine if you can get decent extention, whether you can get a decent Q in the needed space, and how much distortion it will have.  An example of the latter being DD's LGLC design compared to JL's W7. 

I know I'm nitpicking.  You are right that the enclosure is very important.  Just throwing a sub in a box is not the way to get the best results.  Especially when one of the coices is a bandpass enclosure.  I just don't think it's more important than speaker selection.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Yeah, Steven, I would agree that is nitpicking.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

Well, in my experience enclosure design can make very fine quality loudspeakers sound like crap.  A poor enclosure design can over-extend or underextend loudspeakers, limit their frequency response, cause severe colorization, destroy off-axis response, create terrible time alignment problems, destroy power handling ability, create boom or lack of highend in bass. etc. etc. etc.  I also know that the "right" enclosure can make cheap, poorly designed loudspeakers sound like a million dollars.  In fact I have put together systems for people with less than $25 spent on drivers, but in a good, properly designed and properly tuned enclosure they rivaled anything from anyone (except, of course, in power handling.)  :)  Enclose design is at least as important as speaker selection, and in many cases is more so, in my opinion.

In full-range systems I would agree that the crossover is incredibly important and indeed will determine the overall sound characteristics of a system.  But you HAVE to start with good loudspeakers and they HAVE to be in the proper enclosure for your desired application, or nothing else matters.  In subs, the crossover only matters in so far as it is set to the proper frequency and slope characteristics required by the system, and if it is a passive Xover that you have included a zobel network.

In the case of bandpass VS sealed, these are two so radically different enclosure systems that the same speakers in each will sound entirely different, as I'm sure you know.  Thus, the enclosure design ends up being more important to the sound than the loudspeaker choice.

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I'm starting to think that this is more a matter of opionion.  I can come up with many points on how the dirver is detrimental in how the end result will sound.  But the way I see it, the speaker selected will determine the Qtc. , frequency response, efficiency, and power handling for a given enclosure size.  Usually in an install, the enclosure that can be used is limited.  So if you choose a driver that doesn't work well in the space available, your end results won't be satisfactory.  Also, the enclosure won't get rid of distortion products of the subwoofer. 

Or we can go a different direction.  When you are building an SPL vehicle, driver selection is important as well.  For an enclosure, you want it to be as big as you can get.  But for driver selection, it is best to have a driver with a huge amount of motor force, a great deal of suspension travel, high power handling, a low Qts (for a better peak at resonance), a higher Fs, etc.  We have one competitor who uses 9 of our subs in his vehicle with 10 kilowatts per driver.  Another company wanted him to use their drivers, so he installed them.  He metered 3 dB less, so he took them out and put our drivers back in. 

I guess I just see this "it's all in the install" a little too much.  Sure the install can make or break a system.  But so can poor speaker selection as I pointed out above.  Sure a cheap speaker can sound pretty decent in the right enclosure.  But if you want the best results, speaker selection is key. 

DYohn] wrote:

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In the case of bandpass VS sealed, these are two so radically different enclosure systems that the same speakers in each will sound entirely different, as I'm sure you know.  Thus, the enclosure design ends up being more important to the sound than the loudspeaker choice.

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Well that depends on the speaker used.  I don't have much experience with bandpass enclosures.  But if you took a driver that works best in a ported enclosure, it will sound much better that way than in a sealed enclosure.  And I don't care what you do to that enclosure (becides porting it), you won't make it sound good.

This is an interesting discussion though.  And whether anyone's right or wrong here, I'm sure people can learn from this discussion.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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sorry steven, as much as i hate to say it. i agree with dyohn and stevdart. the enclosure is number one. even before the actual sub. of course if you got a crappy sub with no ability to push air youre not allowing yourself the best system to start out with but you can have say, a w7, but if you put it in that sealed enclosure, its gonna sound like a buy one get one free sub. an installer friend of mine made a tiny box for a single 8 inch w3 and it sounds like a lot of 12's. the boxes mentioned above are kinda a universal means of supplying a box. id stay away from the bandpass in my opinion cause they dont please my ears. i like to be able to hear all freqs when i play a song. not just hard thumping sounding like someones beating on a window. box design is number one. oh by the way if you ever need to someone to design Adire a decent profesional webpage, let me know. im cheap

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The thing is this:  the original post asked, " What benefit does a box like this (bandpass) have over a box like this (sealed)?"  It is not a question on speaker selection, but just a question about enclosures.  To answer it with a discourse about speaker selection would be to change the subject, and the author of this thread would not get the answer he was seeking.  If one who is replying had to qualify every answer he makes with every variable that might have some affect on the total system performance, the intended response would get lost in the paragraphs.

Keeping responses short and sweet and to the point makes for good reading and useful help.  Now, this topic is off the course of its original intent.

But back to the point:  read the selection guide DYohn has linked you to for a good primer course on enclosures.  It can be difficult reading at times, but go back to it a few times and it will prove to be a helpful guide for you when choosing the overall sound you want.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

HEY! Lets write a book.... Legend don't go with either of those enclosures. You will be much better off asking how to build a sub enclosure for a specific sub and doing it yourself.Prefab boxes generally blow. (up)

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dream it, build it, fiberglass it

I love it when people can actually hold a debate here, as opposed to some other sites I view.

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Always check info with a digital multimeter.
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Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

auex]I wrote:

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love it when people can actually hold a debate here, as opposed to some other sites I view.

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It's because of two things: respect for each other and recognition that there is more than one "correct" answer for many questions.  It's about being a professional.  I also love that aspect of this forum and is why I devote so much time to it!

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mikedawg, I deleted your post since it was an example of a NON-professional comment.

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im not a proffesional in mobile electronics nor have i ever claimed to be in the past.

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stevdart wrote:

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The thing is this:  the original post asked, " What benefit does a box like this (bandpass) have over a box like this (sealed)?"  It is not a question on speaker selection, but just a question about enclosures.  To answer it with a discourse about speaker selection would be to change the subject, and the author of this thread would not get the answer he was seeking.  If one who is replying had to qualify every answer he makes with every variable that might have some affect on the total system performance, the intended response would get lost in the paragraphs.

Keeping responses short and sweet and to the point makes for good reading and useful help.  Now, this topic is off the course of its original intent.

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I guess I figured the question was answered already.  And it really isn't a change in the subject, but a widening of the topic at hand.  Now we aren't discussing just different enclosures, but how they compare to driver selection.  But if you guys do feel that his question wasn't answered, and I completely hijacked his thread than I do apologize. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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mikedawg wrote:

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sorry steven, as much as i hate to say it. i agree with dyohn and stevdart.

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That's no problem.  Dyon is a very smart guy.  In fact, I admit that I could be wrong.  After all, it wouldn't be the first time.  I guess so far I haven't been convinced.  Maybe it is just a difference in perspectives.  You guys are installers and deal mainly with enclosures.  I work for a speaker manufacturer and deal mainly with the speaker side of things. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Off 95Legends topic:
If only everyone dealt with things with this maturity. Especially professors!!! Also, I don't know what comment was made, but you don't have to be "professional" to make a "non-professional" comment. If it was something that was uncalled for, just like some other member's posts, then that could also be "non-professional" comment. In my opinion, this website seems to be one of the most "professional" forums I have signed up for, and I would love for it to stay that way. (Sorry for ranting, I'm a college student during finals week)

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Jon
Don't like rockford subs? Then don't look at my car =)

Steven Kephart wrote:

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That's no problem.  Dyon is a very smart guy.  In fact, I admit that I could be wrong.  After all, it wouldn't be the first time.  I guess so far I haven't been convinced.  Maybe it is just a difference in perspectives.  You guys are installers and deal mainly with enclosures.  I work for a speaker manufacturer and deal mainly with the speaker side of things. 

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Thanks Steven, and back at'cha.  But you're not "wrong" and neither am I.  I think we are talking from two slightly different perspectives.  Let me try to see if I can find a middle ground.

If you are starting with a given loudspeaker, then the enclosure you choose for that speaker will have a huge impact on it's performance in your system.  I say at that point it becomes "the most important thing."  If you are starting with a clean slate and designing a new system, then both the speaker and its enclosure must be considered (probably equally.)  How about that for a generalized statement?  I believe the original question in this thread was the former: the speakers had already been chosen.

You said in an earlier post "it's all in the install."  I have to argue that this is true AFTER the components are chosen.  BEFORE the components are chosen, it's all in the system design.  I think perhaps you were comng at this question assuming we were in the before stage, and I was coming in assuming after.  I actualy work in both areas, more in the before than the after these days and less in cars than in buildings, so I do see where you're coming from.

Shall we move on? 

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yeah my post was kinda uncalled for. i just dont like people that think they know everything, downgrade another persons post. everybody has their opinion and the forum is the perfect place to state that opionion. if someone wants to "nitpick" then let em. this post will probably be deleted too. i like your system aggie. not a bad job man. its good to see something different in fiberglass sub enclosures.

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always looking for new info and willing to give it