Blown Subs
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=34588
Printed Date: April 27, 2024 at 3:13 AM
Topic: Blown Subs
Posted By: braminator
Subject: Blown Subs
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 8:57 PM
I justed installed a pair of Eclipse 8102's in a .65cuft box with fiber fill. I am running a Memphis Belle MC1300d which will put 1100 watts in to 1ohms. The Eclipses are DVC 4ohm. I wired them + to + and - to -. This is suppose to be 1ohms. 550watts a piece. Correct? I had Infinity Kappa Perfects 10.1 in the same box at 2 ohm load which is 600watts. So 300 a piece. The Infinity's blow these Eclipse subs away. I know from all that I have read and heard these Eclipses should blow my Kappas away in SPL and SQ. This is not the case for me. My Belle has a remote gain control and this would make my Kappas hit hard and loud. Not so with the Eclipse. It barely does anything. So how do I know if I did something wrong or if the subs are blown.
Replies:
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 9:06 PM
I don't know for sure, but I think your box might be a bit too small. For two of those 10's you should be closer to the 1.25 cube range. Your power calculations are correct, but I would look into your enclosure.
..or, and I'm glad I thought of this before I hit the send button, are you absolutely certain all of your voice coils are in phase? If you take the wires off the amp terminals, and touch the ends to a 9 volt battery, do they both move out or in an equal distance? If only one moves, then you have one VC out of phase, or if one moves in the other out, then one whole speaker is out of phase. Check this out, and let us know how it looks.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 9:11 PM
So you are running both subs in a single .65 cubic foot enclosure? That seems a little small for most subs. But then, I'm not familiar with the Eclipse drivers. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 9:17 PM
Yes I checked the phase on them. Still nothing. I even changed the phase on my head unit and nothing. I am stumped.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 9:23 PM
Steven, you are probably a little better at guessing box size by looking at the short list of specs... I am on the wrong PC to pull up my exclosure software... hell, I have three of them, you want me to have them ALL running at the same time? LOL Here is the link to the eclipse woofers page, see if you can help him out a little...
They're at the bottom of the list...------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 9:32 PM
According to the Manual they can run in a .50cuft box. Is the fiber fill causing me problems? Not enough watts?
Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: June 25, 2004 at 11:15 PM
You said you checked the phase on the subs, but try disconecting one sub and see if it gets louder. Mabye you have a coil outta phase causing the whole problem. With what you listed there is no reason why that set up shouldnt be louder than your previous one.
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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 12:22 AM
.65 cuft is too small for those Aluminum drivers, especially if you are saying you have TWO of them together in that enclosure. The published nominal T/S specs for the 8102 10" speaker tossed into WinISD results in an optimal sealed volume for two drivers of 90.18 litres (approx 3.2 cuft, Qts of 0.707)..... I also suspect, like suggested above, that you could have one VC out of phase... ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 7:47 AM
Well found the problem. One wire was backwards at the box itself. Thanks for all the help.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:12 AM
braminator wrote:
Well found the problem. One wire was backwards at the box itself. Thanks for all the help.
That is called "out of phase." ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:14 AM
Actually it was called a wire fell out of the box. and one was backwards. Boy do I feel stupid. Please no comments for the nube.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:35 AM
No slam intended, only education. "Backwards" wiring is called "out of phase," since what it creates is one sub moving forwards while the other is moving backwards and they partially cancell each other out. Don't feel stupid, we''ve all done it or something similar. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:53 AM
Thank you. But also when I slid the box back 1 wire came undone. Thanks for all the help. Now I have to solve my new problem of my lights dimming. AT 600wrms and Infinity Kappas no dimming. Now with 1100wrms and the Eclipse Aluminums I have dimming. I am currently not running a cap so I guess it is time or I go back to my Kappas and sell these fine brand new Eclipses.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:57 AM
No, it's not the speakers. It's the increase from 600 watts to 1100 watts in your amplifier. If your lights are dimming, your amp is drawing too much current from your alternator. A cap MAY help in some cases, but the only real solution is to upgrade your alternator or go back to a smaller amp. The Eclipse speakers will sound great (better than Kappas) with 600 clean watts... ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 10:02 AM
Well I am running a Memphis Belle MC1300D amp. My Kappas were SVC4ohms not the Eclipses are DVC4ohms. So now the amp went from 2ohms 600wrms to 1100wrms. I don't want to spend all this additional money on upgrades for this. So I think I it will be easier to go back to my Kappas. I never listen to it beyond a reasonable but loud volume. I also only listen to classic rock. So I bought the Eclipses Brand new from an authroized dealer at an incredible unpassable deal. But what did i really gain over my Kappas? I know the SQ on the Kappas was good but are the Eclipses really that much better is what I have to wonder.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 10:30 AM
Also I now have engine whine that I nver had before. This is not worth it to me so these subs and box are now going up for sale.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 10:46 AM
You could also try wiring them at 4-ohms (series-parallel) which should take you back to a safer power level on the amp. Eclipse Aluminums and Infinity Kappa Perfects are pretty much in the same league for SQ. The Eclipse is a better built speaker, IMO, but if you liked the sound of the Infinity speakers more than what you are getting from the Eclipse, then by all means swap and sell. But do yourself a favor and wire for 4-ohms first before you make a final decision.  ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 12:04 PM
Yeah I run the SVC version of those subs. One in a 1.5 cuft. box. They need room to really sound good cause the driver has to travel so far. This configuration provids some of the best low frequency responce I have heard.
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 12:31 PM
Man I hate being on the west coast...... the aluminum subs need a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed enclosure with no fibrefill. If you are undersize on the box it will limit the extension of the sub and thus it's ability to reach down and play deep bass with authority. While Eclipse says it can work as small as .5 cu.ft. you car can also only go 15 km/h as well, throw the recommended spec out the window. These subs are amazing, if you now have alternator noise with these subs, turn the gain down on the amp. By changing subwoofers will not cause a noise problem, this means that if you have it now, you had it before, so getting rid of these great subs does not solve the problem. Your lights are dimming because the amp is now working harder and drawing much more current from the battery. Would I add a cap, not right now I wouldn't. The first thing that I would do is upgrade all of my factory ground wires in the vehicle to see what happens, then I may even ground the amp direct to the battery (may in fact get rid of the noise as well). What guage power / ground are you using, it had better be at least a 4 guage for both. Dyohn has given you one great piece of advice, that is to rewire the subs to a 4 ohm mono rating. Do not worry about watts and ohms etc, try this and compare it so see if you are happy with it. Here is how to wire these subs as Dyohn recommended. Wiring Option #2
 Now try this and post up the results for all to see. YOu have some really good equipment at your disposal, it is a real shame to see that it is not being used to it's capabilities. ------------- Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: kgerry
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 1:16 PM
on the flip side Rob...when i'm dealing with customers at 8:30 in the morning you are still curled up in bed sleeping like a baby... and when i'm driving through 3 feet of snow at -40 C in january to get to the shop you are dealing with an annoying little drizzle...there are far worse places in the world to own a business than the west coast of B.C. the only benefit for us here is that we hit Miller time a couple of hours sooner than you do..... ------------- Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer
Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 1:54 PM
shaman wrote:
Yeah I run the SVC version of those subs. One in a 1.5 cuft. box. They need room to really sound good cause the driver has to travel so far. This configuration provids some of the best low frequency responce I have heard.
Actually the excursion of the driver has nothing to do with the enclosure size. It is the physical parameters designed into the driver that determine's the best enclosure to use. An example, one of our drivers has a lot more throw than the Eclipse sub, but is designed for a much smaller enclosure. You are correct on that last part though. A larger enclosure will increase your low frequency response. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 2:26 PM
Ok here is what I have. Eclipse 8454 HU, Memphis Mclass 6.5 comp set in front, Mclass 6x9 in rear fill. Memphis Belle MC1300D amp. I have Kappas running at 2ohms 600wrms and no noise in the 6.5 comp set. When I hook up the Eclipse at 1100wrms 1ohm I get engine whine in the 6.5s. I removed a lot by shortening my ground cable. The engine is just barely audible and only if you get up on the 6.5 tweeter with your hear. Ok now for the strange thing. My amp is mounted to the back of the seat. When I pull the seat down all engine noise goes away. When it is back up with the shortened ground I get a slight amount but only really at no volume or slight volume. When I really start to hear the music at low volume it is not audible. I will try tomorrow changing them to 4ohm load as someone mentioned. Is there a way to make DVC4ohms sub go to 2ohms?
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:13 PM
If the amp is mounted to the metal of the seat, this also acts as a ground. Dismount the amplifier to see if the sound goes away. If it does the amp will have to be mounted to a peice of upholstered wood and care must be taken with the mount so that the screws that mount the wood to the seat do not make contact with the bottom of the amp, next the mounting screws for the amp cannot go through the wood and make contact with the metal of the seat. This is called a ground loop and is the start to the path for noise. There is no way to make 2 dvc 4 ohm subs go to 2 ohms, they will be either 1 ohm in an all parallel circuit, 4 ohms in a series / parallel circuit or 16 ohms in an all series circuit. My bet is that they should perform fine in the 4 ohm setting for you. ------------- Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:16 PM
Well this seems like a big pain when I had a perfect sytem IMO to begin with. I will try a few of the suggestions tomrrow in the meantime They are now on Ebay https://cgi.ebay.com/dll?ViewItem&item=5706816373&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
Posted By: pureRF
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:35 PM
How much did you buy these for and how much do u want for them if they dont sell?
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dream it, build it, fiberglass it
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:39 PM
I just paid $650. I know I won't get that much. I don't know what to try to sell them for, thats why they are on ebay. 2 brand new subs and a box which weights almost 75lbs. I have all paperwork and boxes. You can make me an offer I ca not refuse.
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:44 PM
Ahhhhh, no don't sell them, you will lose more than it would cost to solve the problem. Remember the problem was already there to begin with so just by reverting back to what was there before does not solve the problem, it will rear it's ugly head again one day. Take the time and solve the problem, a good system with good equipment is only as good as it's install. ------------- Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 3:48 PM
I shortened the ground that helped a lot but still no soultion. It is mounted on a piece of wood attached to the seat. What is wierd is if the seat is up I get the noise when it is down I get no noise. Can I wrap the ground in something to help. Is there such a thing as a shielded ground. What else could it be when the seat is up or down?
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 4:19 PM
Where is your fuel pump? If you are moving the amp away from the fuel pump, this could make the noise go away, or if not just physical distance, then moving it to a different magnetic plane could be taking care of the noise... (don't laugh, it's real...) Don't sell em, keep em and fix the problem... Rob is right! Does the pitch of the noise change with the RPM's or is it constant? If constant, move the amp... it is getting interfered with by something electronic close to it. (most likely the fuel pump) does the noise fade out as you lower the back seat or is it either on or off? first situ - electronic interference, NOT power supply.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 4:24 PM
The noise changes with the RPM's. When I run my SVC Kappas no noise. With these noise. Also when the seat is down no noise when it is up noise. My fuel pump is close but how close I do not know. I will try various things tomorrow. If nothing without major work or more money they will be sold. My loss someone elses gain.
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 4:36 PM
Puhleeez don't sell these speakers, not that the Infintity are bad at all but it would just be a shame not to solve the problem and enjoy the system to it's real capabilities. It does not sound like the fuel pump is the culprit. Did you unmount the amp to see if the sound goes away? Remove the amp from the board and have someone hold it in mid air on the same angle as if it was mounted on the board, do we have noise? Fold down the seat with the amp still held like this, more noise or less noise? It could be that the cables are being pulled and shoved around as the seat goes up and down, this may be tugging on the rca inputs and breaking the signal path on the shield of the rca cable, something to consider. Let's keep working the problem for you, it is solveable with time and patience. If I have time to post I'll always offer up my .02, It's a little busy here at the shop today and I'm closed tomorrow but one of the other older distinguished guys (or young guy that knows his / her stuff)on the site can pick up where I leave off. ------------- Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 26, 2004 at 9:32 PM
I think I know what the problem might be. I have the RCA's are on the passenger side but cross to the drivers side of the amp. The power is on the drivers side but crosses to the passenger side of the amp. They are crossing right at the seat back. So if I mount the amp the oposite side I will see if the cures the problem tomorrrow. I will keep you all posted because the sound is night and day. I have slight dimming under heavy bass so maybe a Cap will go in.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 11:05 AM
Problem solved, But unhappy. I solved the problem by reversing the amp around but this put my Memphis Belle Logo upside down because of where my power cable and rca's are. What was happening was they were crossing. Now by turnng the amp around the noise is HISTORY. So now in order to get my LOGO right I have to rewire the Power and RCA's or just lice with it since I do not show the vehicle and this is strictly for my enjoyment. The Eclipse Aluminums are sweet. I have the slightest dimming under heavy bass from my wifes Rap and Hip Hop. Can someone send me the link for the Big # or will a simple cap solve this? Thank you to all for your help.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 11:08 AM
I meant the BIG 3 fix.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 11:29 AM
You're worried about a logo orientation? OK... Get yurself a high-output alternator. What kind of car do you drive? Did you take the subs off eBay? Also you might consider getting them into the proper size enclosure... ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 11:33 AM
I am anal about th little things. I have a 2004 Hyundai Elantra GTeee of the fun Subs are coming off ebay. So my .65cuft is to small? I have another one that is 1.0cuft. It just takes up more room in my trunk.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 12:15 PM
Like Rob (an Eclipse dealer) said, your subs require 1.25 cuft each. In a smaller enclosure, they will not play as deep or at the SPL levels they are capable of. Since your car is new, contact your Hyundai dealer and ask them about a high-output alternator, since you don't want to void your warranty. If they say they don't make one or if you don't care about warranty, contact Stinger or www.4alterstart.com and see if they have one that will fit your car. I believe the stock Hyundai alternator produces about 90 amps. You want one in the 130 to 160 amp range. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 2:35 PM
Steven Kephart wrote:
shaman wrote:
Yeah I run the SVC version of those subs. One in a 1.5 cuft. box. They need room to really sound good cause the driver has to travel so far. This configuration provids some of the best low frequency responce I have heard.
Actually the excursion of the driver has nothing to do with the enclosure size. It is the physical parameters designed into the driver that determine's the best enclosure to use. An example, one of our drivers has a lot more throw than the Eclipse sub, but is designed for a much smaller enclosure. You are correct on that last part though. A larger enclosure will increase your low frequency response. So excursion is not a physical parameter of loud speaker?.... the volume displaced is an important factor in an air suspension speaker.. I was making a more general statement because in general more excursion relates to lower free air resonant frequncies and that generally rlates to a larger box volume, of course this is not true for all designs, but it is more of a general observation about acoustic drivers. The dampenig factors are far more significant on the enclosure size. Or so I understand. Anyway who do work for? Steven Kephart Adire Audio
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 2:38 PM
Okay that quote got a little screwed up, my responce to his responce from my post... So excursion is not a physical parameter of loud speaker?.... the volume displaced is an important factor in an air suspension speaker.. I was making a more general statement because in general more excursion relates to lower free air resonant frequncies and that generally rlates to a larger box volume, of course this is not true for all designs, but it is more of a general observation about acoustic drivers. The dampenig factors are far more significant on the enclosure size. Or so I understand. Anyway who do work for?
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 3:37 PM
shaman wrote:
Okay that quote got a little screwed up, my responce to his responce from my post... So excursion is not a physical parameter of loud speaker?.... the volume displaced is an important factor in an air suspension speaker.. I was making a more general statement because in general more excursion relates to lower free air resonant frequncies and that generally rlates to a larger box volume, of course this is not true for all designs, but it is more of a general observation about acoustic drivers. The dampenig factors are far more significant on the enclosure size. Or so I understand.
Here's a direct quote by Dan Wiggins: "Xmax isn't really a physical parameter of the driver - it's a "side effect" of a given driver design. Note that you can have the same 6 physical parameters, but Xmax values all over the place. And Xmax does not affect any of the derived T/S parameters." If you are interested in this topic, we had a long discussion about the ins and outs of drivers. There was a great deal of information, including one of the best descriptions of what the different parameters are and how they inter-relate. Here's the link:https://caraudiotalk.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=2384 Now you are right in that excursion is needed to produce the lower frequencies. After all, to get the same output an octave down, excursion must increase by a factor of 4. So if you don't have the excursion to keep up, then you will lose low end. But at low levels the resonance and low frequency extention is a function of the mass and suspension stiffness. shaman wrote:
Anyway who do work for?
I work for Adire Audio. We are a small speaker manufacturer, that is growing. Here's our website: www.adireaudio.com Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 4:03 PM
You guys looking for any help? I graduated in May with my BSME got registered (FE) in North Dakota. I got an interview in Spokane with the DOE commin up soon.
Posted By: braminator
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 4:33 PM
Do I need a bigger box for classic rock. I don't listen to rap and I just want tight deep bass. I don't want SPL I want SQ.
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 27, 2004 at 4:45 PM
If you want good transient response, then you want a driver with low inductance. But what can also effect the "tightness" is by boosting the upper bass/midbass frequencies. Getting too much lows can make it sound boomy. But not having enough low end will effect the way music with really low frequency information sound. Shaman, YGPM. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
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