Not happy w/new sound

I recently had a system installed in my 2000 Accord Coupe and all sounds good until I push the volume up and the mids seem shreeky and highs aren't there.  I have the following:Alpine 7893, JL 300/4, JL500/1 JL12W3v2, Pioneer 3way in doors & Pioneers 3way in rear deck.

I initially bought the Alpine to play CD-r's in my car, than I upgraded stock speakers. I then got a wild hair to add some more goodies after being out of this car audio game for many years (since the 80's). There are times when I like to listen to my music at very high volumes just like when I am sitting in my easy chair at home.

After spending approx. 2 days reading I see I should probably go to component speakers up front with nothing in the rear deck.  I don't really care for the kick panal idea but will if if I have to.  I don't want to say money does not matter but am willing to part with some if I am able to push the volume up and have smooth highs without it sounding like a whining siren. I am also thinking of going to the JL10W7 as well.

I will take any thoughts or guidence you car gurus have. Just want to smile while I crank it.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Well Mike, it sound like you have a great start.  You have some good clean amps, a quality head unit, and your bass is probably solid with the JL.

Depending on how the installer set your system up, you might be able to get better quality sound just by changing some settings.

Question 1:  What size are your pioneer 3-way speakers in the doors and deck? 
Question 2:  Do you have high pass crossovers on the 3-way speakers?  If not, you should.  If you send a full range signal to midrange speakers they'll bottom out and distort if pushed.  You'll be able to push them much harder without breaking up if they are properly crossed over. 
Question 3:  Did they set your gains correctly?  If your head unit or amps are clipping it will make your speakers sound like sh*t and it isn't your speaker's fault. 
Question 4:  Did they install the speaker right against the door metal?  Did they get a good seal?  Cancelation and vibration from a quick and dirty install can harm output and sound quality too.

But yeah... I've had a few different installs over the years and have been most happy with quality components up front and a single subwoofer in back.

Cheers, kfr

Thanks for the reply kfr,

Doors are 6.5", rears are 6x9. The 300/4 has the high pass crossovers built into the amp and are adjustable I believe? They did set the gains correctly and the system sounds good until I want to start squeezing up the dial in the mid 30's, nothing clipping its just not sound ing good in the mids and highs, I have the treble backed down to -7maxxed and still to high sometimes.  I installed the speakers myself several weeks prior to my wild hair with the JL stuff, yea right against the doors stock location.

I tinkered with the amp gains, crossovers etc. this wekend when I grew frustrated.  Tweaking is not out of my realm and am always happy to do so.  This sometimes become a bad habbit like the home stereo Lots of time and money in that one.

I think it may just be that the old school though os putting in Pioneer was okay and could have been if I decided not to do the other stuff.  However, I made the leap and I am going to follow through making sure I am smilling while the knob is turned to the right...

Thanks,

Mike

Well, if you don't care for the kick panel idea and your 6.5" drivers are fairly low and forward in the door I feel that you can still get good imaging from a component setup in the door location.  You can either get a component set where you can mount the tweeter into the speaker like a coax driver and direct the angle up or you can mount the tweeter separately and point it up at your ears.  I use the a coax setup on the my Mb Quart's pointed up at my ears.  

It is dangerous when a home stereo buff gets into car audio (I know, because I'm one myself) because it becomes more complex to get that home stereo quality in the car.  

So describe what you don't like about the sound.  The highs are too bright and screaming and the mids are shreeky?  You're looking for smoother treble and midrange and tighter bass?

Question:   Are there any factory speakers still hooked up in the dash or anywhere else?

Cheers, kfr

I agree with DYohn on the limitations of the Pioneers. I had one set and they were exactly as described above-very harsh and shreeky. Get some better speakers. Also- you say when you start pushing the volume to the mid 30s? 35 is the max volume on this hu (I have the same one). Are you sure the hu isn't clipping?

One other thing- I assume you used the pre-outs from the hu for the amps- have you shut off the internal amp in the hu? Doing this will give yu better SQ through the pre-outs.

My $.02

Thnaks for all of the replies,

I guess if I have to do the kick panel to get a premium sound that is what I will do.  Is it better to have the local installe fab these with glass or just buy the Q-Logic ones?  I did not knoe the HU only went to 35 on max volume, I have had it to 33,34 and that is it.  The sound from the Pioneer is as describbed in earlier response SHREEKY, damn near gives me a headach.  The HU amplifier is turned off using the pre-outs to the JL amps.

Would it be wise to just spend the money on the front end of the apeakers oe should I add some filler to the back deck as well.  I thought by removing the back deck speakers and leaving stock grill on it might aleaviate some presure from the sub as well as a little added sound.  I will be having the installer do all of this work on the front-end of the system as well as ask for an hour of his time to help me tweak the settings on the amps. until I am more comforatable doing it myself.

By doing the front kick panals will I get good imaging from these sitting that far back by the fire-wall or should I try and do the door speakers with Tweets up front in the corners where there is a fake speaker location?

Keep the comments suggestions comming, I do appriciate your feedback.  Any need to change the HU, I really do not care for all the bells and whistles on it...

Mike

Try to keep the tweeter as close to the midrange driver as possible.  And you don't have to do a kick panel to get premium sound.  If you had your head unit to 33 or 34 out of 35 there is a good chance it is clipping.

Work on the rears last.  Taking the 6x9's out of the rears helped some bass come through to my cabin.  I don't miss the rear fill at all.

$uperflame$ wrote:

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them pioneer 69 4 and 5 ways can handdle up to 450 watts per speaker . i run the 4ways with with a 500watts RF amp and i can turn it wall the way up with no loss of SQ

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Please.  They are rated at 80 watts RMS, let's not exaggerate. 

While SQ is in the "ear of the beholder," I can say without hesitation that Pioneer car audio speakers have some of the worst performance on a real time analyzer I have ever measured.  They rank right in the same category as Pyramid, Boss and Crunch.

If I decided to go with a good set of components in the door; what is the best way to go about that?  Do I find a shallow mount, do I cut the back of the mounting basket out, do I add some kind of slightly angled spacer between the door panal and frame, do I drill into the panal up top to mount the tweeter.  I plan to bi-amp thje tweeters and mid off of the 300/4. 

Since I seem to be pushing the volume knob up to the 30+ mark should I anticipate that I will be upgrading the amp to something like the 450/4 or is it the fact that my extremely high dollar Pioneers are just degrqading the quality of the 300/4?

I called my installer this morning and he wants $400 for custom fibergalss kicks OUCH! plus it will screw up the foot-room as well as the floor mats won't fit.  My local guy is a dealer of Memphis, JL, MB-Quart and soon to be focal.  He told me he would sell me the top of line MB Q's for about $850 that list for $1,499 due to making room for Focal.  Is this overkill?  Is it best to go ahead and but the best? I know it all depends on how I like them while listening in the store but I always suspect that in the store they have modded the mounting area as well as that they are pointed straight at you which is not real life location.

Keep em coming, I do appriciate the responses and depating.

Mike

The best advice I can tell you hear is to demo speakers with music you listen to at the dealer.  Speakers can sound dramatically different.  Take your favorite cd in with you and do a/b tests with like equipment to your own.  Memphis, MB, and Focal are excellent places to start.  

I personally demoed the Memphis, MB, and JL lines recently.  I personally couldn't justify the jump in price from the pce quart series to the qsd's.  I didn't like the JL line at all.  Thought JL had decent midbass, maybe even slightly stronger than the quart's I bought, but the vocals were sloppy.  The memphis speakers really impressed me.  Take a good listen to them.  That silk tweeter might fit your tastes.  They are generally slightly smoother than the titanium tweeters on the quarts, which are typically described as 'bright'.

I think some part of the problem is the pioneer speakers.  I've heard them and they aren't pretty when turned up.  What is the 300/4, 75x4?  One thing you could do is bi-amp a good component set.  The Quart's allow you to do this right on the component crossover, I'm not sure about the others.  Basically you'll be sending 75x2 to the woofers of the component set and 75x2 to the tweeters in the set.  You'll then be sending 150 total to the components, gaining the benefits of bi-amping, and have greater control over the components tuning.  If you decide to run rear fill you can run them off the head unit power, which should be fine because they rears shouldn't be nearly as loud as the front speakers in a system designed for sq.

I bi-amp my quart pce series w/ a 50x4 amp and I can turn it louder than I can handle before they start breaking up.  Haempyst, another poster to this board recommended I try it not more than a couple months ago when I was asking the same questions as you.  I took his advice and have been very happy w/ the results.

$uperflame$ wrote:

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wow what did i write, i cant even read my own writing, im so stoned

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Searching back into memory...when one's in that state EVERYTHING sounds good.

But I, too, have some Pioneer coaxials that sound good at lower volume levels, but start to complain when the volume goes up.  I started the car OEM upgrade the same way you did,  then got the bug and started working on a system.  The fronts will be the next upgrade, for sure.  But I like the midbass at all volumes with these 6 X 8's, and will most likely let them remain in the rear deck.  The front door locations seem to be very good for imaging, too.

kfr01,

Thanks for the time you have given. Yes the 300/4 is 75x4 and I will definately look for this type of speaker. Any thoughts on the mounting in the door and spacres etc.  Anybody have any pictires of door panal installs?

Thanks,

Mike

Here's what I did for my install:  made a 3/4" MDF bracket to fit a 6.5" speaker into a 6x9" location, Dynamat Xtreme matted the door inside and out, placed a Cascade Audio delex pad directly behind the speaker, mounted the speaker to the MDF with a foam gasket from crutchfield in between, cut the back off the foam gasket as to not restrict air flow but protect from water dripping down, caulked around the MDF bracket to create a seal between the MDF and the door. 

kfr01,

This is what I have done over the last few days; hope it is the right direction.  I have purchased a set of CDT ES-502 speakers 5.25" with the extra tweets and attenuator knob for the dash while the 5.25 and tweet go into the q-form kick panels I purchased as well.

I will be bridging the JL 300/4 so it puts out 150w x 2 into the component set.  At this time I will use nothing in the doors or the back deck.  If at later I see some fill needed I might put a 6.5" fill in the front doors and still leave the back deck open with grills only to let the sub sound come through the grills.

Hope this is on the right track, any comments from CDT owners or Q-forms please tell me weather the components are acceptable or if I will be disapointed.  I am also considering swapping the JL 12w3 for the 10w7 so I can propoerly use the 500/1 amp.

Thanks,

Mike

I've heard good things about CDT speakers.  Is the CDT crossover bi-amp-able?  If so, then use that feature with your four channel amplifier.  Then you'll have a separate 75 going to the tweeters and 75 going to the mids, both @ 4 ohms and cleaner than your bridged setup. 

Yeah man .. that sounds like a good start to me.  If you do buy some 6.5" midbass drivers for your doors you should really be set. 

On the install, I don't have experience w/ actual q-form kicks, but you'll probably want to stuff them to increase the effective air volume: https://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-317

One problem w/ qforms is that they are just kinda small and tend to hurt midbass response.  So, the problem you might have is a little "hole" in your frequency response curve depending on where you have the sub crossed over.  i.e. your sub from 30ish - 80ish, and then the 5.25" drivers will start to fall off higher in that enclosure, maybe 150hz-ish (guess).  So you'll have some quiet midbass, a hole, in the 100hz-120hz range and your system will lack some punch that particlar range can provide.  You'll easily be able to fix this w/ 6.5" drivers in the door dedicated to midbass. 

Until you put some midbass drivers in I'd cross the 5.25" cdt's over around 100hz, 12db slope or higher.  You don't want those guys sent much bass in those enclosures or it will probably muddy up the midrange.

The JL 300/4 is bridged it is still a 4ohm x 150w per the information supplied by JL the bset that I can understand. Since it is a 4 chaqnnel amp and I will only be using 2 channels in the bridges mode.  I will check the CDT specs to see if the crossover is bi-ampable, i was thinking of this method as well.

Any comments on the quality of the Q-Forms as well as the quaility for sound?

Thanks for the replies,

Mike

Would it be wiser to just run the 75wx2 to the components and abandon the other two channels for now?  I was trying to something with the speaker in the 150w range to use the bridgable feature and to fullfill the RMS closer to the speaker and this is why I choose the E520 series that is rated at 150w.  One of the problems I have now is that I have to turm the volume up to at least 25 to start sounding just okay, I know this has a lot to do with the gain set where it is for the Pioneers. But, what I have read in the booklet is that the gains are set using a voltage meter to match the given ohm load for maximum distortion free sound.

Am I way off base on this theory from the JL book?

Any JL freaks chime in please.

Thanks,

Mike

What you're talking about doing is bridging two channels into one mono channel.  Common with subs, the rating is 4 ohm bridged, but the amp sees two ohm per channel.  2 and 2 = 4.  The bi-amping is the best route to go.  If they are not bi-ampable, using two of the four channels is next best.  The volume should be very loud with 75 watts to each component.

The most accurate way to set the amp gain is with a multimeter, using a sine wave test tone, at some various frequencies.  But you can also set by ear, using the sound of distortion (clipping) as the "stop" indicator.  And with components, that distortion is much easier to hear than it is using a sub to hear it.  Setting gain by ear is often discussed, and I'll review it if you need the info.

Stevdart thanks,

I hate to have a pair of speakers rated for 150w and only giving it 75w, isn't this more likely to damage speaker?  Should I go ahead and get a 150w x2 or maybe dowgrade the speaker to the HD series that is rated at 90w?  This is if the crossover is not bi-ampable.  As you see from earlier posts I have to turn the unit up to volume of 30-34 to get the loudness that I want and this is what started it all as well as the Pioneer speakers sounding so horrible.  The installer set the gain when he installed the amps and sub.  With quality speakers am I going to see that much of a difference?

Thanks,

Mike

You said you have purchased those components.  First thing to do is check if bi-ampable.  Then go from there.  I can't find info on these, as they appear to be 2002 model.

And the gain is always reset when there is any change at all in the system.

I looked at the pic of what I think are your crossovers on the CDT site.  They appear to have 4 input terminals and 4 output terminals.  You probably just have to remove a jumper and they'll be bi-ampable.

Running 75w to those components will not hurt them.  The only way you'll hurt those speakers w/ 75w is if you keep sending them a clipped signal.  You won't do this because you'll notice distortion and turn the volume down.  :-)  and you'll have the gains set correctly.

Ordered them today from store in NJ, I can always call to see if they will downgrade... Not even the CDTAudio web-site has the info if bi-ampable, I emailed them but it is the holliday weekend and do not plan on getting a response until Tuesday.

Guess I should research more before I purchase, no CDT dealers in my area.

Thanks,

Mike

Went to dealer today to speak with him about bridging the 300/4 into the new component speakers as opposed to buying the 300/2. he told me that bridging them is perfectly okay.  Is he leading me on? Should I just go ahead and do the 300/2 with the newly ordered CDT 520 components that are rated 130w or 150w?

I went ahead and ordered the JL 10W7 in the HO Enclosure since he said he would give me full credit for the 12w3 and sealed enclosure that is all of two weeks old.

Any more thoughts from guys/gals

Mike

Is it OK as far as being operable?  Probably.  Is it OK in terms of sound quality?  Probably not.  I think it is never a good idea to use a bridged stereo amp for main listening speakers.  Too much noise for a genuine SQ setup.

Oh, and one other thing.  You seem really hung up on power ratings.  As long as your speakers are rated at more RMS power handling capability than you amplifier, and as long as the amplifier is set up properly and not clipping, you are fine.  Always.  The key is how it SOUNDS.  Don't obsess about power ratings. 

Agreed about the power ratings.  My 50x4 rated amp does just fine pushing 160rms rated components.  They can play clean louder than I listen to.