what are some of the better subs for SQ?
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Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=36068
Printed Date: April 28, 2024 at 3:34 PM
Topic: what are some of the better subs for SQ?
Posted By: fugit
Subject: what are some of the better subs for SQ?
Date Posted: July 23, 2004 at 7:41 PM
Notice I said "better" not best. Just wondering which ones sound good. I listen to all types of music so I don't need LOUD bass, but I like loud and clear. Right now I just have one ten alpine type r in a .85 cuft sealed box. It sounds pretty good but I'm thinking maybe I should've bought a 12. it only has like 200 watts rms to it until I get my new amps monday, then I'll have an Arc Audio 2100cxl that says it pushes 380 x 1 bridged.
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"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
Dave Chappelle as Rick James
Replies:
Posted By: pimpincavy
Date Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:25 PM
You cant go wrong with a Infinity Kappa Perfect.
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Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:27 PM
The tuning of the box and it's relationship to the transfer function of your car have more to do with the sound quality of a sub than the driver. Generally critically or slightly overdamped systems (Q = 0.707-0.5) sound tighter, and are easier to tune "flatter". Tuning the box so that you take advantage of the cabin gain of your car is also helpful, since higher dampening systems usually have a higher Fs and a smaller volume.
The second thing to look out for is Hoffman's Iron Law:
Small, low, efficient: pick two.
If you have a small box, you need a big amp and a driver that has a very large Xmax and a larger Xmech to handle the power and displacement required. If you need the bottom octaves and don't have much power, use a big box. If you need it small and loud, it just won't go that low.
In my own personal experience, I've had very good luck with 10s and 12s in smallish sealed boxes like yours, so it begs the question, what's wrong with your system now?
-dave
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This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: T.Hill
Date Posted: July 23, 2004 at 8:28 PM
Resonant Engineering XXX
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Pioneer DEH-P980BT, Zapco DCREF1000.4,Pioneer TS-C520PRS, Adire Extremis, MTX TA91002, TC Sounds TC-3000 15"
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 12:32 PM
dpaton wrote:
The tuning of the box and it's relationship to the transfer function of your car have more to do with the sound quality of a sub than the driver. Generally critically or slightly overdamped systems (Q = 0.707-0.5) sound tighter, and are easier to tune "flatter". Tuning the box so that you take advantage of the cabin gain of your car is also helpful, since higher dampening systems usually have a higher Fs and a smaller volume.
The second thing to look out for is Hoffman's Iron Law:
Small, low, efficient: pick two.
If you have a small box, you need a big amp and a driver that has a very large Xmax and a larger Xmech to handle the power and displacement required. If you need the bottom octaves and don't have much power, use a big box. If you need it small and loud, it just won't go that low.
In my own personal experience, I've had very good luck with 10s and 12s in smallish sealed boxes like yours, so it begs the question, what's wrong with your system now?
-dave
I guess working for a manufacturer, I gain a different perspective on this. With vehicles, usually you have a set amount of room that you can use, so you must choose a driver that is ideal for your situation, and will give you the Qtc. and extention you desire in the enclosure you have room for. But beyond that, I believe the driver has a huge impact on how the system will sound. I suppose in the past, most manufacturers used an overhung motor, so all drivers had the same transient response and distortion products. It is rare that you would see an underhung motor used in a driver, so the differences in drivers usually were in the resonance (fs) and Q's offered. Now that has changed. You can find drivers with better transient response and lower distortion. The former is caused by high inductance. Overhung motors have long coils, and therefore high inductance. But if you find a driver with low inductance, then transient response will be improved. Several companies now offer low distortion drivers. They do this by optimizing the BL over excursion to stay linear, and thereby greatly decreasing distortion. As Dr. Kipple, David Clark, and several other prominent engineers have shown, 70% of the distortion you hear in a driver comes from a nonlinear BL curve. The rest comes from Cms nonlinearities over excursion (suspension stiffness changing causing about 23% of the distortion you hear), and Le (inductance) distortion (transient errors from high inductance). To save space, I won't go into the actual designs implimented by each company right now. But I will later if you guys want me to. JL Audio offers a clever way of flattening out the BL curve in their W7. Their downside as compared to the other designs is they aren't very flux efficient. This can be seen by the high Qes. We developed a new motor to offer flat BL as well which we call XBL^2. IMO it is the superior approach, but I can back that opinion with factual data to make it less bias. In our design we gain a very large throw in a shorter motor, have lower inductance (shorter coil), and are much more flux efficient. BTW, the XXX mentioned above uses our XBL^2 motor as well. And finally Orion offers one in their H2 subwoofer. Theirs is just a slightly different version of ours, but is also much less flux inefficient which is why they have such a high Qes. So in conclusion, I think there are better SQ drivers offered now using these technologies. If you are looking for the best SQ driver, then I would recomend looking at a driver using the technology mentioned above. But I will warn you. We have found that a couple people are used to the distortion other speakers produce, and don't like the transparency the low ditortion drivers offer. So personal preference is a factor. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 2:28 PM
Well your looking for excellent low frequency responce, a 10" will probably suffice. Yes infinities are a good choice for more money look at the eclipse 8100 serries, also JL w0's. Some models will work just fin in your sealed box but others may require a little more room for optimal low frequency responce, for example my eclipse 10" has just under 1.5 cutf net displacement. 380 rms will be plenty of power and should give you nice sound on just about any 10 or 12, it soundls like your looking for SQ, and not out to break your windows and disrupt space time.
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 2:38 PM
I was in the same boat you were about two months ago, I went with an eclipse 8102.4 because there was a good dela on e-bay, though it is an amazing sub. I built an enclosure for optimum low frequency responce without trying to kill my driver efficency I may have went a tad large at 1.5 cuft, but the sound is absoultly beautiful. Run it from a precision power PC-2400 which makes 400 wats at 4 Ohms briged, and it actually makes that on a 4 Ohm reactive load, my speaker impedance is a little higher so I probably see closer to 300 rms on test tones and it is plenty loud. Most of my friends don't belive its just one ten. SO my point is one speaker set up right can sound better than system with mulitiple subs and outrageously large amps. Your on the right track.
Posted By: vbel
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 3:42 PM
Would it make sense to have more than 1 sub if all we want is good sound quality?
Posted By: fugit
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 9:09 PM
Awesome answers, thanks. That's basically what I was looking for, the learning of it all. Theres nothing wrong with what I have, I just like learning about things I enjoy. I was actually pretty impressed with how what I have sounds. Bass is nice, and when I play Thunderstruck by ac/dc it sounds like the drumset is in the back seat. I was curious as to what can make it better or how to pick things out. Thanks again.
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"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
Dave Chappelle as Rick James
Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 9:47 PM
Vbel, yes it does make sense to have more than one sub. When you are using two subs there is a side effect that most people do not consider. Most people think that sure two sub will play louder and in fact they will (unless you are an idiotstick and wire them wrong (or use Bose)). The side effect is mutual coupling. Two speakers working as one. One sub may have to struggle to hit that nice deep note, whereas two subs tend to, for lack of better words, smooth out the response and get rid of the peaks and fill in the dips. A single sub system can sound absolutely incredible if done properly, this means amp ----> box ----> sub -----> install.
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Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.
Posted By: sunshine
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 10:22 PM
I asked a very similar question to the original poster a few months ago, when I was looking for a single 10" that would play nice SQ. The anwsers I was getting, and the subs I subsequently did research on were Eclipse Alumium, MB Quart PWE, and the Diamond Audio D3 or D5. I went with the MBQ, but the only reason it happened that way was becasue I got a really good deal on it. My second choice would have been the D5. The Eclipse is probably the best sub out of the 3, but it requires a sligtly bigger box...and as I have a small hatchback car, this is a major consideration for me. I dont know what type of car you have...but I can say that the above 3 subs are all top shelf, and are highly recomenrded by many members of this and other audio forums. -a ------------- 1991 Mazda Rx-7
Alpine HU w/iPod adapter
PG 600.2Ti, Alpine 35x4
Optima Yellow
Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: July 24, 2004 at 11:02 PM
Steven Kephart wrote:
As Dr. Kipple, David Clark, and several other prominent engineers have shown, 70% of the distortion you hear in a driver comes from a nonlinear BL curve. The rest comes from Cms nonlinearities over excursion (suspension stiffness changing causing about 23% of the distortion you hear), and Le (inductance) distortion (transient errors from high inductance)
This is starting to get a little on the esoteric side, but I think it has value.
As both a end user and a manufacturer of finished cabinets (though not for the mobile market) I completely agree with your assessment. The driver does play a huge part in the sound, but the sound of a particular driver, all other things being equal, will be less of a factor than the sound of the box's tuning if the latter is a mess. You can easily take the best driver in the world and completely ruin it's transient response, group delay, and frequency response with a mistuned enclosure, which will very likely mask BL and Le nonlinearity completely (see "one note boom boxes in Plymouth Horizons"  ). The correlary is that a well designed enclosure with highly optimized tuning can make an otherwise pedestrian driver work extremely well. I pretty much proved this to a nonbeliever friend of mine when I built a box for his noname 12" that not only had a proper Q, but was braced sufficiently and was not placed where it would generate large modes and nodes in his truck as readily as it's former location.
Regarding the XBL^2 technology, I really hope you guys get to license it to more OEMs, since what it does for BL is really cool. I'd use the Koda 6.5" in a heartbeat if I could make it fit into my overstuffed doors (2.25" mounting depth avail). The larger woofers are also exciting, but too deep for my applications right now.
Brown-nosing aside, I think in the grand scheme we're both right depending on the particular situation. There are crappy drivers in good boxes, good drivers in crappy boxes, good drivers in good boxes and bad drivers in bad boxes, and the source of any objectionable sounds is easily pinned on either component, without even mentioning the condition of the vehicle.
-dave ------------- This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 12:09 AM
dpaton wrote:
Regarding the XBL^2 technology, I really hope you guys get to license it to more OEMs, since what it does for BL is really cool. I'd use the Koda 6.5" in a heartbeat if I could make it fit into my overstuffed doors (2.25" mounting depth avail). The larger woofers are also exciting, but too deep for my applications right now.
Thanks, I appreciate it. We actually have quite a few companies interested in it, or already using it. The last time I counted, I believe 5 build houses were building drivers with it. Wow, 2.25" isn't much. That must really limit your choices. Good luck finding a good one for your needs. dpaton wrote:
Brown-nosing aside, I think in the grand scheme we're both right depending on the particular situation. There are crappy drivers in good boxes, good drivers in crappy boxes, good drivers in good boxes and bad drivers in bad boxes, and the source of any objectionable sounds is easily pinned on either component, without even mentioning the condition of the vehicle.
-dave
I guess I'm a little skeptical still about the box thing. In car audio, the Qtc. can vary by a decent amount with very little audible difference. Basically, you can take one of these low distortion drivers and make it sound like one's with distortion. But you can never take the lesser driver and make it sound like the driver with no distortion. That's why I feel that speaker selection is slightly more important than the enclosure. On something as questionable as this topic though, I usually try to ask my boss what he thinks as well. After all, he has WAY more knowledge and experience about this than any of us. He seems to concur with my position. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 9:33 AM
Steven Kephart wrote:
Wow, 2.25" isn't much. That must really limit your choices. Good luck finding a good one for your needs.
Indeed it does. Right now I have some Infinity components in the doors after major surgery, and they're almost touching the outside bodywork. An Extremis 6 is right out, much to my chagrin. I'm waiting for a miracle to make the XBL^2 motors as shallow as a conventional one. Not likely, I know.
Steven Kephart wrote:
Basically, you can take one of these low distortion drivers and make it sound like one's with distortion. But you can never take the lesser driver and make it sound like the driver with no distortion.
If you put lipstick on a chicken, it's still a chicken. No argument here. If you have an average driver, it's easy to screw up the enclosure and make it sound awful. Since things like XBL^2 and JL's (efficiency-robbing) techniques for BL leveling are uncommon in the general market (W6/7, Koda/Brahma/Tumult vs MTX, Infinity, Directed, Zapco, Pyle, Kicker, et al), there's a lot more of the "average driver in a bad box" thing going on than there should be. If everyone had the knowledge and cash to choose a better driver the only hard part would be a good box, which isn't that hard if you spend a little time on it. Given a good driver in a proper box, it operates at a level (SQ) that's unmatchable by the pedestrian drivers that dominate the market, even if their boxes are tuned better. I still believe that the "average driver in a good box" thing is an 80% solution, and it's realistic to assume that with good power, a good box, a little EQ and a good environment, that that average driver in the good box can do sufficiently well to make folks happy.
As far as who's right, we can go back and forth for days on this and still both have valid points. I'm going to call it close enough for now.
Side note: Most of the local guys who make boxes run the datasheet numbers through BassBox or something and figure that's all that's required, box dampening, measured specs, and cabin gain be damned. Ignoring cabin gain is one of the biggest omissions I can think of, short of mistuning the box. Both absolutely ruins what could be a very flat response. Ugh.
Steven Kephart wrote:
On something as questionable as this topic though, I usually try to ask my boss what he thinks as well. After all, he has WAY more knowledge and experience about this than any of us. He seems to concur with my position.
Just out of curiosity, would that be Dr. Dave? It's been a while since I actually chatted with him or Dan...around the time when the Shiva was originally designed for the BassList crew. I've been following from the sidelines ever since tho.
-dave ------------- This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: shaman
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 11:23 AM
Back to the lecture at hand... Fugit- play around wiht the orientation of your sub-box, try all different positions and directions. I had the exact same "distant" sound at first, but I moved the box around side to side and front to back, and faced the sub all over the place and found it sounded the best tight against the back seat facing inside, it was not the loudest position, but it sounded the best.
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 11:34 AM
dpaton wrote:
Indeed it does. Right now I have some Infinity components in the doors after major surgery, and they're almost touching the outside bodywork. An Extremis 6 is right out, much to my chagrin. I'm waiting for a miracle to make the XBL^2 motors as shallow as a conventional one. Not likely, I know.
Haha, yeah the Extremis 6 is a bit deep. But then you just can't make a driver that can move 1/2" linear one way shallow. Resonant Engineering is coming out with the RE components which uses a 6" XBL^2 driver with only 6mm or throw and is supposed to be shallower than the Koda. I will have to find out how deep it is later. XBL^2 actually offers a shallower mount for a given excursion, it's just that thus far everyone has been focusing on the other extreme; huge excursion capability.
dpaton wrote:
If you put lipstick on a chicken, it's still a chicken. No argument here. If you have an average driver, it's easy to screw up the enclosure and make it sound awful. Since things like XBL^2 and JL's (efficiency-robbing) techniques for BL leveling are uncommon in the general market (W6/7, Koda/Brahma/Tumult vs MTX, Infinity, Directed, Zapco, Pyle, Kicker, et al), there's a lot more of the "average driver in a bad box" thing going on than there should be. If everyone had the knowledge and cash to choose a better driver the only hard part would be a good box, which isn't that hard if you spend a little time on it. Given a good driver in a proper box, it operates at a level (SQ) that's unmatchable by the pedestrian drivers that dominate the market, even if their boxes are tuned better. I still believe that the "average driver in a good box" thing is an 80% solution, and it's realistic to assume that with good power, a good box, a little EQ and a good environment, that that average driver in the good box can do sufficiently well to make folks happy.
You are absolutely right. Even if they only have 80%, most likely to them they have 100% and are perfectly happy. I more recomend these "special" drivers in areas where the user is looking for the best SQ. dpaton wrote:
As far as who's right, we can go back and forth for days on this and still both have valid points. I'm going to call it close enough for now.
That sounds good. I figure I'm out of my league here anyway. After all, you have the EE degree. I'm just a lowly shipping boy at a small speaker manufacturer. I actually discussed this with Dyon not too long ago. Our conclusion was that it's all a matter of perspective. And I would change my perspective if it wasn't for Dan Wiggins telling me that he feels that the driver selection is slightly more important. His opinion holds a great deal of weight with me. After all, everyone who has gone toe to toe with him in arguments that I have seen have failed. This includes Richard Clark. dpaton wrote:
Just out of curiosity, would that be Dr. Dave? It's been a while since I actually chatted with him or Dan...around the time when the Shiva was originally designed for the BassList crew. I've been following from the sidelines ever since tho.
-dave
No, unfortunately Dr. Dave doesn't come into Adire much. He works at the local colledge in the biology department. And any projects he does for Adire, he does at home and just sends them to Dan. So I get to spend a lot of time with Dan, but very little with Dave. But I hear that is changing soon. On another side topic (sorry to the original poster), have you seen our Arachnid spider yet? It was the spring suspension shown on the Parthanon. I can give you the full details if you would like. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 11:42 AM
Although I have never (yet) used an Adire driver in an automotive application, I can very happily vouch for their home theatre woofers (specificly the Tumult.) If the Brahma or Shiva sounds half as good, it should be a serious competitor for any application. Now as far as drivers i am familiar with, on the lower-cost end I recomend Infinity's Kappa Perfect. I run a 12" in my personal car. Image Dynamics and Resonant subs are also very clean and compete with the Infinity on price. As we move up the cost structure a bit, I really like the sound of the Eclipse drivers and also of the Planet Audio Neo series. The best sounding (to me) car sub I've heard lately is the JBL GTi series. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: fugit
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 12:50 PM
So a decent driver in a "good box" should be enough. If a sealed box is recommended, what would make a good sealed box for SQ? I don't know alot, but if you make the box the volume recommended and use the correct amount of polyfil, seal it nice and tight how can you screw that up? I'm still new to this, so if I sound dumb it's because I am in this area.
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"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
Dave Chappelle as Rick James
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 4:29 PM
I recomend you do some homework. Visit the sites below and read through the sections on designing and building sealed enclosures. Come back here and ask questions after you've done this and we can help you out! Also, once you decide on your driver (speaker) let us know and we can help you decide what size is best for it. Cheers. www.diysubwoofers.org, www.bcae1.com, https://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=236, https://www.termpro.com/articles/buildbox.html ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: ripped
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 5:53 PM
Jl Audio W7" have awsome clearity to there subs!!
Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 6:08 PM
fugit] wrote:
So a decent driver in a "good box" should be enough. If a sealed box is recommended, what would make a good sealed box for SQ? I don't know alot, but if you make the box the volume recommended and use the correct amount of polyfil, seal it nice and tight how can you screw that up? I'm still new to this, so if I sound dumb it's because I am in this area.
Yup. Like Steve said, 80% is 100% to most folks. I'm a little nuts about low end (my home stereo has an F3 of 8Hz in-room) so my perspective, like his, is a little skewed by the toys we get play with.
As far as making the box, what you mentioned will get you to the same 80% I just mentioned. The box is a little easier to get close to 100% because the cost threshold is low. Brace the living $^#& out of it. However much you think you need, add more. Bolt it down to something in the car. If the box is moving, that's energy that isn't coming out of the driver. Seal it up good. Glue is fine, but go over every joint with some silicone inside the box, and let it cure before installing your driver. Use non-parallel walls if you can. One angle is good, 2 are better. It makes construction harder, but the box will steal less sound from the driver.
There are no dumb questions. 
Steve: PM coming at ya.
-dave ------------- This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: fugit
Date Posted: July 25, 2004 at 8:12 PM
I had actually read the first two articles, and now the other two. I read the first site, and did all the calculations for a sealed box when I made mine before reading that you should use the recommended box size from the manufacturer. I did a search too, I know how everyone screams at the newbs to search before they ask. I just like to understand what I'm doing not just because someone says so. Some of it is a little over my head but I can teach myself if I have to. Of course after reading these, and a few others, I have more questions lol. Thanks for the links.
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"I'm Rick James bi***, enjoy yo' self Ah Ah Ah"
Dave Chappelle as Rick James
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