Vacuum Tube Amps
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=41195
Printed Date: May 24, 2024 at 8:57 AM
Topic: Vacuum Tube Amps
Posted By: Wiseguy
Subject: Vacuum Tube Amps
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 12:10 AM
does anybody know of any vacuum tube amps other other than those made by US Amps and Milbert Amps?
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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Replies:
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 9:34 AM
https://www.trutechnology.com/ ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 10:42 AM
these amps are awesome who sells them, or do you have to get them direct? alot of their links arent working ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 12:19 PM
https://www.bladeice.com/ is one store I know of that sells them. ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: hurtado_roberto
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 12:42 PM
Do they really output as much clear RMS watts as they claim? There's one on e-bay for less than &1000 that claims to output 3,000W x 1 @ 2 Ohm RMS. That's too much power. ------------- Poly Dollies
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 12:50 PM
hurtado_roberto wrote:
Do they really output as much clear RMS watts as they claim? There's one on e-bay for less than &1000 that claims to output 3,000W x 1 @ 2 Ohm RMS. That's too much power.
I don't know from personal experience, but from what I've heard they are rated correctly. That amp retails for over $3000. ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:10 PM
hurtado_roberto wrote:
Do they really output as much clear RMS watts as they claim? There's one on e-bay for less than &1000 that claims to output 3,000W x 1 @ 2 Ohm RMS. That's too much power.
remember tubes are a completely different animal when it comes to amps, i really wish the car audio industry had made them a standard, when it comes to clarity tubes are cleaner than sh*t ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:11 PM
kfr01] wrote:
A href="https://www.bladeice.com/">https://www.bladeice.com/ is one store I know of that sells them.
is there any US sites? ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:23 PM
Wiseguy wrote:
hurtado_roberto wrote:
Do they really output as much clear RMS watts as they claim? There's one on e-bay for less than &1000 that claims to output 3,000W x 1 @ 2 Ohm RMS. That's too much power.
remember tubes are a completely different animal when it comes to amps, i really wish the car audio industry had made them a standard, when it comes to clarity tubes are cleaner than sh*t
and if you look at this: Model: C-7.4T (Vaccum Tube) 100% Tube amplifier.... The finest comfort for your body and soul -100% All Tube Driven 2 Channel Amplifier
-Ultra-Linear Push-Pull Design
-Hand Built by our In-house Engineer
-Kimber Kable Speaker Wires
-Pre-Amp Tube/Driver Stage
-ZERO AC Feedback minimizing upper harmonic distortion
-High Voltage Unregulated Power Supply
-300 Volts on the Driver Tube Plates
-300 Volts on the Output Tubes
-(2) GT 12 AX7 Pre-Amp Tube
-(4) GT 6 BQ5 Output Tubes
-(2) Audio Output Transformers
-18 Watts x 2 @ 4 Ohm
-18 Watts x 2 @ 8 Ohm
-Non-Bridgeable
-(2) individual Input Gain Controls
-(2) Thermal Variable-speed Fans to cool heatsink
-1% tolerance Non-Inductive Metal film Resistors
-WIMA Polypropylene and Mylar Capacitors
-PROPRIETARY High Frequency RF ground techniques used for Improved Reliability and HF noise rejection
-Heat generating components mounted symmetrical on either side of heatsink
-Handmade in California, U.S.A. ONLY 18 WATTS!! High wattage output is NOT the factor with this amp.... VOLTAGE IS.... ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:42 PM
The reason why tubes arent the standard is because they are far more touchy. You have to let tubes warm up and they are also not as durable as a solid state amp which is why they arent as Ideal for car audio. But tubes amps are definatly what you want if you want the ultimate for sound quality.
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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer
Posted By: hurtado_roberto
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:48 PM
ONLY 18 WATTS!! High wattage output is NOT the factor with this amp.... VOLTAGE IS.... What exacly do you mean by that? Isn't w=va? ohh... so how do you provide such a high voltage? The power inverters will still need a high amp input since you ususally have 14.4v. Are you trying to say that with the higher voltage you get cleaner power? ------------- Poly Dollies
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 1:52 PM
High Voltage = High Headroom ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: hurtado_roberto
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 2:30 PM
Sooo.... what about leg room? I'm sorry, I'm a bit ignorant. Can you elavorate a bit more or is there a site were I can read some more about this.
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Poly Dollies
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 4:30 PM
Here, IEEE can give a better explanation https://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tube.html ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 4:35 PM
https://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tubet1.html------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 4:45 PM
https://www.donlisms.com/html/gainstruc.html ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 5:23 PM
Wrong... not completly, but mostly. The voltage across a speaker's terminals does NOT equal headroom, unless the power supply for the amplifier can provide the current necessary to MAKE the power by maintaining the voltage. That is headroom. Voltage without current is NOTHING (sometimes known as static electricity). With the exception of VERY high end, highly esoteric home amplifiers, with DOZENS of output tubes - so as to be able to provide current without a transformer, EVERY tube amp utilizes an output transformer, to convert from high voltage/low current (which is what the tubes output) to lower voltage, higher current (which is what a speaker needs to function). In this particular amps case, the primary voltage is 300, but the current can only be 60mA, which would NEVER be able to drive a 4 ohm speaker directly - well, it would, but not to very high output levels... In order to make 18 watts across 4 ohms, you need 2.1 amps, and 1.5 amps at 8 ohms. You can do the math here, and see that I am right. A transformer does not MAKE power, they convert power - if 18 watts comes out, then AT LEAST 18 watts must go in! ( I say at least, because there will be some losses in the transformer)
I noticed that you have a "custom built 40 volt pre-amp". Is this where you got the idea that voltage=headroom? I hate to tell you this, but you may actually have higher distortion from your pre-amp than I do from my head unit, because, unless you are attenuating that 40 volts to a level that most amps can use, you are NOT running your pre-amp output devices in their linear range. EVERY amplifier (pre, power, low gain, high gain, RF, audio) has a distortion curve, that has its most linear range (lowest distortion) usually between 25 and 50-60 percent of it's maximum output design. If you are running this pre-amp in it's low non-linear range, (below 10 volts out) you MAY have spent money on that pre-amp for nothing. Here is a page to read up on it for yourself. See diagram 8 on page 8. (This is the best representation of what I am trying to explain I could find.) Granted you will likely have a MUCH lower noise floor, because your amps can be turned all the way down, and still be driven to full output, but I am referring SPECIFICALLY to distortion, not SNR.
Anyway... I just wanted to chime in... ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 6:34 PM
haemphyst, you so smart. The level of knowledge on this forum astounds me sometimes. I have read a few other forums but didnt even bother joining because no one seemed to know their ass from a hole in the ground. On this forum you get complete explanations like that all the time. And by the way Office Space is one of the finest movies of all time. Everyone should see it.
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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer
Posted By: Rushman
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 11:27 PM
lol.......the BOBS
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99 F-one fitty
Pioneer Premier H/U
Alpine EQ
Kicker 1200 amp
4 Kicker comp 10s
6 kicker SS65.2 components
Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: October 19, 2004 at 11:51 PM
Haemphyst-
Not EVERY tube amp uses an output transformer, there OTLs out there (output stransformer-less) but they use tubes specially designed for that kind of duty, lower supply votages, and much beefier grids and anodes, to handle the greatly increased current. ;-)
All-
Also, to add a little more to the supply voltage != output voltage, the tube supplies are only at a few mA. With the 18W 4 ohm example, that 300V tube supply is only being asked for 120mA (0.12A) at maximum output, assuming it's 50% efficient end to end. I'd also bet that anyone trying to use one of those amps in a car for anyting below 100Hz will have a problem, due to the size of the transformers used. Small output transformers have real issues making bass, due to a variety of factors, but mostly because small transformers saturate easily at low frequencies. It's the same principle that makes switching supplies so popular these days.
As far as their cleanliness...I'm suspiscious. I've designed and built amps of all varities, and for the parts cost on those amps, I'm not sure they can do much better than break even with an average solid state amp.
Although the tubes seem to be running in their ultralinear range, they will dissipate a fairly large amount of heat, become microphonic quickly, and will grow noisy after a short while due to the physical abuse they take, independent of any shock suspension system. The only real advantage tubes have in this kind of application is that they are forgiving of being overdriven to a small degree, as their clipping behavior is 'soft'. They sort of mush around instead of clipping with sharp corners, and the resulting distortion is mostly 2nd and other even harmonics, which humans find to be pleasing to the ear.
Tubes can be extremely linear and accurate, but for my money, I can do a lot better than phsae shifting transformers, vibration sensitive, cycle intolerant glass bubbles in my car.
That said, I love the EL84 practice amp I built for my bass, and the tube amps I use when recording bands, but I'd put neither anywhere near a critical playback system. I'll leave them to applications that need color or high power RF amplification.
And as for Wiseguy's IEEE citations, I've been a card carrying member since 1995. Those articles, while well written, are definately the product of a very small subsection of the industry, and should not be taken as gospel.
-dave
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This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 20, 2004 at 12:44 AM
ok ill shut up now
-------------
Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 20, 2004 at 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=haemphyst]Here is a page to read up on it for yourself. See diagram 8 on page 8[QUOTE] btw this is something totally different then what im doing ------------- Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 20, 2004 at 1:02 AM
im not saying anymore i already sound like an idiot
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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp
Posted By: dpaton
Date Posted: October 20, 2004 at 6:33 PM
No such thing. There are merely various levels of knowledge. Example: There's no way I'll ever show my face in the show dog forums my bes friend is in constantly. And You won't find me in the drum forums my sister is on. I must admit to lurking constantly at the latter, if only to suck up the intelliegent words of others like the information leach I've found myself to be.
No blood no foul. Life is good. And my apologies to all for making that sound more like an attack, and less like the nudge it was supposed to be.
-dave
-------------
This is not a sig. This is a duck. Quack.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 20, 2004 at 9:12 PM
Me too. I did not mean to step on any toes at all, I was simply filling in with the information I have. I believe somebody on the board called it "Flexing my brain". Wiseguy, please do not take my previous post as an attack, I certainly never meant it to be - I was simply trying to find out a little more about from where you are coming, as well as allow some of my knowledge out for others.
Dpaton, I do stand by my statement, although I do thank you for pointing out my error. I think my brain was "flexing" faster than my fingers could type.  I am aware of OTL tube amps, as I posess one (actually a pair) myself. They are the Transcendant T8LN, mono version, and I love them. As much as I love tubes in the house, I would never have tubes in the car - FAR too rugged an environment. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: hurtado_roberto
Date Posted: October 21, 2004 at 12:36 PM
The general application for the tubes is on mids or highs but not lows? When would you need a 3000w amp for mids/highs? Concert?
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Poly Dollies
Posted By: Wiseguy
Date Posted: October 21, 2004 at 12:41 PM
hurtado_roberto wrote:
The general application for the tubes is on mids or highs but not lows? When would you need a 3000w amp for mids/highs? Concert?
says who?
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