Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Nakamichi, Eclipse or Alpine

I am looking to buy a new head unit and considering one of these three:

Nakamichi CD700II
Eclipse CD8454
Alpine CDA-9833

Which one is best?
My priorities are as follows:
1 - SQ (top priority)
2 - Detachable face plate (for thieves)
3 - Drive transport mechanism(no skipping on bumpy roads)
4 - compressed file playability(mp3 etc)
5 - cd changer inbuilt (not required if 4 is satisfied)
6 - Cost

Thanks.

IMO the Nak and the Eclipse are in a class above the Alpine. Also IMO (and in the opinion of several other reviewers and testers) the Nakamichi CD700II is the absolute best CD player available for car audio. When compared to any other CD player on the market (even esoteric players from companies like Linn) it is more accurate, has better DAC circuitry, cleaner sound with wider frequency response, more stable CD transport mechanism, better signal to noise and lower THD at full pre-amp output, and more dynamic headroom (it can easily reproduce the full 96db of dynamic range possible with a CD. No other mobile audio CD player can do that reliably.) It will easily outperfom the Eclipse in terms of SQ and will satisfy your criteria 1,2, and 3. However, at $2000 list price it is probably worst for cost, and no it will not play MP3s. I believe the version II does have the ability to control a CD changer, but if so it'll be only a Nakamichi changer.

Now can you HEAR these differences? Maybe or maybe not, depending on the rest of your system. Does the Nak have the ease of setup and flexibility of control found in the Eclipse? No. But if you want the best SQ available, I believe you cannot beat the CD700.

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Does the Nak 700II have a detachable face plate? I looked on the nakamichi site but it does not mention about a detachable plate. I dont want to leave the unit "as is" in my car as it would surely be a target to break my window. The specs show "Antitheft=no".

How much less in SQ is the MB75 (I think it has a detachable face plate) but not sure. I got to double check again.

Ah, I just checked and you are correct, it does not include a detachable faceplate. Of course, if someone were to steal your head unit it would be useless without the external DAC that you should locate remotely.

The MB-75 is a much lesser SQ performer. The MB-100 uses the same outboard electronics as the CD-700, but neither changer uses the advanced magnetic clamping CD transport or the machined aluminum CD tray, so they are not quite in the same league. I use an MB-100 currently in my everyday driver, by the way, and I am VERY happy with it.

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If you have a real good system then you should also have a real good alarm. Also if your system is going to do that head unit justice then detaching your faceplate is probally not going to detour theives because they are gonna want everything else in the car anyways. Also most theives will break into a car regardless of if the plate is on or off because most people just throw the faceplates in the glove box anyways so they will just break in and check for it. Also of all the decks you could buy the Nak deck looks very plain jane and can be easily mistaken for a factory deck so someone just quickly looking around will probally skim right past it and if someone already knows what that deck is then a faceplate wont stop them because a deck of that quality is worth trying to track a faceplate down for. As was also said since its usless with out the outboard dac anyone who knows their ass from a whole in the ground will not bother stealing it. With all that said the Nak is by far the best bet for sq, just not very cost effective. Also if you are concerned with sound quality then you should not be using mp3's or any burnt disc for that matter being that they sound like sh*t. Originals only

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Ravendarat, I agree with most of what you said but I beg to differ only on two small items. 1) without a face plate, the would-be thief would not know what system I have since all face-removed systems look similar. And I do have a good alarm (which I put in after my glass was broken once by thieves)

and 2), I have all of my cds encoded into mp3 using EAC (Exact Audio Copy) and the quality is truely amazing. I wish I could even achieve half of the quality I get from my home system. Encoded at 128k or higher, these sound very good. I play these mp3s both from CDs and my old Ipod. When played on my two home systems (JVC and Kenwood) they both sound terrific. My brother has a Harman Kardon where I try these same mp3 encoded CDs or the Ipod for that matter and the sound is quite amazing. Most of the times I hear what you said that mp3s are not as good as original CDs but if encoded well they sound quite good. After all, mp3s are nothing but the original file's bits compressed and get uncompressed by the decoder while playing. Bit rates do improve or deteriorate but anything at or over 128 sounds great and I do like very high quality SQ.

As far as the faceplate thing, the point I am getting at is that if the thief is A) a professional he is going to have the car cased out and know that you have a lot more than a deck in it or B) some ametuer kid who could see a Nak deck and not even know what it is and pass it up for a pioneer or a alpine deck because it looks like its flashy. Most people see a Nak deck and think it is factory or some low end piece of crap. As for the MP3's go, I put a challange on the table to my salesman over two years ago to burn me a mp3 disc and play me the original on the same stereo and prove to me that the mp3 sounds just as good and they have yet to do it. Even a regular format burnt disc made from an original doesnt sound as good as the original.

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Don't even get me started on 128k mp3 quality being inferior to CD quality.

It would be like pissing money down the toilet to use primarily 128kbps mp3s on any of these cd players.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

I think you should get started, I am bored today and need to be entertained :)

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

haha .. I just get so frustrated with the mp3 trend because I think it breeds an entire attitude of "good enough." I see the surge to compressed music as a step back, not forward. You'd think with advances in storage technology we'd be moving toward HIGHER quality recordings (SACD/DVD-Audio, etc.) not back toward cassette tape quality.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

I could not agree more. But if you wanna see a fight start try this one. I dont understand peoples obsession with vynil records. They are full of background noise and sound like sh*t. I mean I have heard records played on 15000 dollar turn tables and I still think they sound like crap. People seem to not be able to let go of the past and step into the digital age of CD's. The problem is that same digital age has spawned this MP3 crap. Downloaded music sounds bad, compressed music sounds bad, to me its that simple and I love when we hire some new hot shot that tells me other wise. It gives me something to do for about 20 minutes, because that is about as long as it takes for them to make their case and for me to then smash their little arguments with a couple simple demos.

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Have you listened to the Bose sound dock with the ipod? I think that would entertain you at least a little, pun intended. Anyways, I know that Bose is not the best system by far, however I wish you heard my system at home or even my brother's Harman Kardon. All the people who listened to either of them had a different opnion, no offence to anyone who disagrees.

It all boils down to sampling frequency. A CD has synthesized sound. True quality would come from a record player that has the real sound waves engraved in it. However that also brings another problem, noise due to dirt and static on the record just to begin with. Once you convert (encode) that to a CD format or any other digital format, you already lost the original sound to a synthetic representation of the original sound whereby the quality gets degraded depending on the sampling. I am not trying to prove you wrong by saying mp3 is better than Cd anyday, but all I am saying is I disagree with your statement of mp3 being sh*t like you mentionned earlier.

You arent going to ever offend me with opinions man. And as far as the bose dock goes, I sell that over priced piece of sh*t and have never and will never recomend that thing to anyone. Basically all I was getting at is I have never heard a mp3 in any type of format sound AS GOOD as a original cd

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

128kbps is around 11:1 compression. You THROW AWAY 90% of the information on the original. See Walt Crawford, MP3 and CD-Quality Sound: The Laws of Physics have Not Been Repealed, at https://home.att.net/~wcc.techx/MP3.htm.

Part of this information you throw away is because of a fairly sharp low pass filter at 16khz for 128kbps encoding. Why don't you don't want to hear the extra ambiance and harmonics that information above 16khz provides? Isn't hearing more of the detail part of the REASON why people buy nice stuff? Your brother bought H/K because it produces good quality sound. He obviously cares about quality. It makes NO SENSE to then turn around and revert back to cassette tape quality by encoding at 128kbps.

NO SENSE.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Have you ever encoded with EAC, Ogg Vorbis or LAME MP3 at >= 160 and listened yourself? Do you still call that crap? I wish I could demo my setup.

I agree, MP3 is useful only for casual listening. I'll put the sound quality off any good quality vinyl played on my 1977 Linn turntable with black widow tonearm and Grado G1+ cartridge, played through my circa 1975 Neve pre-amps up against anything else out there today.

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160 still uses a low pass filter and perception based compression algorithms. I understand that it gets CLOSER to CD quality, but is still not CD quality, and that fact always begs the question, "why?" Why buy nice/expensive equipment only to gimp your source material? Why not hear all the ambiance and harmonics?

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/mp31.htm

See that page if you don't know what a perception based algorithm is. That graph is extreme, but see how the algorithm cuts chunks of the material out. Why would I want to cut chunks of material out of my source? I think this is the primary reason mp3 encoded material frequently sounds thin compared to CD quality. Add in the low pass filters and you've got thin sound without high frequency ambiance and harmonics. yay mp3! posted_image

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

My mom's 02 Trooper came with a Nakamichi headunit and 6 disc changer. This was an upgraded stereo option from the factory. Let me start off by saying that this headunit sounds like sh*t. On top of sounding this horrible, it is built horribly. If you push the mute button, 2 out of 3 times it won't work. If you touch the lcd, the unit will do something random such as shut town, change stations, mute, etc.

megavolt121 wrote:

My mom's 02 Trooper came with a Nakamichi headunit and 6 disc changer. This was an upgraded stereo option from the factory. Let me start off by saying that this headunit sounds like sh*t. On top of sounding this horrible, it is built horribly. If you push the mute button, 2 out of 3 times it won't work. If you touch the lcd, the unit will do something random such as shut town, change stations, mute, etc.

OEM "branded" systems are nothing (repeat NOTHING) like after-market systems. I know for a fact the only thing made by Nakamichi in that system is the name. It is a liscensed system.

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yes it is not actually made by nak, just has the nak name stamped on it. Its kinda like having a little league team named the Red Sox and watching them play and saying you dont understand how they won a world series.

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

It doesn't look like anybody sells the CD700II online anymore. I enquired with a few Nakamichi Authorized dealers and they said they cannot sell directly because some dealers such as Nakamichi have become strict with reselling their stuff. I wonder how the CD400,MB75 and MB100 are still available but not the CD700II. Even thought I was willing to pay up to $2000 for the HU, it looks like I have to settle for the MB100.

Also I have not heard anyone else using the Nakamichi PA8001 Mono Amp for a sub which has output power of 400W into a 4 ohm load, 800W at 2 Ohms or 1000W with a 1 ohm load (without bridging). I am using it to push a 27WX Focal Utopia sub and it does sound good. Only no reviews yet I wonder why.

I don't recomend you buy any high-end gear on line. Indeed, you can never beat the personal service from your friendly neighborhood shop... The CD400 and MB series are more common, high-end consumer gear so maybe that's why you can find it. The CD700 is considered "professional" by Nakamichi.

The PA8001 is relatively new (I think it is a 2003 model) and they are rather expensive, so perhaps that's why you can't find reviews. If you own one, head over to cardomain and write one!

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My brother knows this person who can get me the CD700II. Now my revised question is if I had a choice between a Denon DCT-100 and the Nakamichi CD700II, would I still choose the Nakamichi over the Denon? Any knowledgeble advice welcome.

And yes, I have the Nakamichi's PA2004 for my references and a PA8001 for my sub. Since there arent any reviews yet, I will probably be writing the first one very soon after I receive my new HU from either Denon or Nak.

ANY compression scheme is a bad thing... they ALL suck posted_image

It's bad enpough that they cut my beautiful analog source into billions of zeros and ones. I'm already missing a significant fraction of the information contained in the original. I will admit, digital is MILES ahead of where it used to be... but still, nothing compares to the live performance!

And BTW, DYohn, I like vinyl.

(and tubes.)

(and electrostatics.)

(and analog.)

(and beta.)

(and AMD.)

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

Like I said earlier, if you want top quality, records are the best in quality because they are true analog like the origial source but if you cannot afford to have a very high end gear to play the record on and provided you can keep a record to its pristine condition in terms of dust and scratches, then cd is the cheaper "alternative", which is digitized/synthetic. To the masses, CD seems to be the most affordable media today.

Anyway, I have decided to get myself a CD700ii from Nakamichi and am sure to make a few people jealous. posted_image

I shall post pictures of my dash, amps and sub when all done with carpet, loom etc. I am now looking for the perfect color carpet for my sub and amp covers to match the interior.

Good choice IMO. The Denon is a fine deck (I wasn't aware they were still available in the US?) although I'd actually choose the Eclipse over it. In any case, be sure you get the CD700II and not the CD700. The "II" designation is important mainly for its improved CD transport mechanism. The CD700 (the HU I used to run) was known for skipping way too much. I also use the PA2004 for my mains. Great amp.

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[QUOTE=markcars] Does the Nak 700II have a detachable face plate?QUOTE]

Eclipse dosen't offer detachable face either, but does have the ESN security.

I have the Eclipse 5444 and absolutely love it. Also have a much older Eclipse headunit and think its great too. Never really heard any Nac. stuff, but from my experience (sold andinstalled alot of Alpine headunits Eclipse easily has them beat. Definately a few runs higher in the headunit rating ladder then the 9833.

I've heard some good comments about the Alpine F#1 Status which has a comparable 24 bit DAC like the Naks and it used to be $3000 and is now in the 2k range but I already paid for the cd700II which should be here in a few days. The only worry I have is that some people say the Naks are not too reliable, albeit being one of the best when they don't break down and keep working. I guess I will have to cross my fingers and hope not to have to deal with the warranty department.

I finally got to install my brand new shiny Nakamichi CD700II this morning! Weather was freezing my fingers, but I set the heater to almost hot before disconnecting the battery power.

One question: Some peole say disconnect the -ve, some say disconnect the +ve before working on the car. Which is the right thing to do? I would think either one is same as long as the connection to the battery is cut off. However, I do not earn my daily bread by doing installations like many of you professionals out there, so I could be wrong and would like to know which is the proper thing to do.

Bottom line is this unit finally makes my aural taste buds enjoy and sing with joy. Very clear, top quality(keyword) sound. This makes me really satisfied with my sound system. Only one problem is that I am worried about the cheap thieves who try to rob anything, since I got to leave the unit in there with no detachable face plate. Is there any way to hide it by putting some kind of plastic cover (camouflage kind of thing?).

Thanks

Mark

Sorry about the prior post logon, my buddy from work messed with my computer and logged on here. I asked him to use his own computer from now on since he logged on to several places and left his own ID on this computer of mine!!!

I guess I got to delete all my cookies and start clean and stop letting anyone use my computer!

Mark

Ok my computer back to me. My friend from work (who used my computer) bought himself an eclipse deck and he brought it to me asking my help to get it installed.

What I noticed on it, is that there are more than double the number of RCA outputs and inputs(for digital and the Eclipse advance Commander). I did a little research and found that the double number of inputs is due to having balanced line outputs and he needs an adapter to use them all (and have better quality) or just use one set of outputs. I don't know which to use if he doesnt want to get the balanced line adapter. I went through his instruction manual and nowhere does it mention about which of set of outputs to use if not using a balanced line adapter.

One more question I have is if we use the balanced line adapter (to remove any static/noise in the signals), does this have to be near the HU or near the Amp?

Thanks,

Mark

The outputs you will use will depend on the setting of the unit. In normal setting it should be front / rear / sub and in Pro mode it will be High / Mid / Low. When using the BLA it is generally put as close to the amplifiers as possible.

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Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.

Thanks Rob,

After getting the BLA, I realised it had to be near the amp just like you mentionned. Also yesterday, I was wondering about the location and as per the laws of physics, I thought higher voltage carries less disturbances and therefore it would ideal to have the signal travel via the high voltage until the amp (or BLA in my case). I installed it last night and its an awesome system. I feel like the eclipse has better radio reception than my Nak 700II but the CD sound I cannot tell any difference.

Thanks again!
Mark

I don't even have to read the rest of the forum because i'll tell you Nak is your best choice. I have dealt with several Nak,Alpine, and Eclipse products and by far Nak is superior, especially when it comes to head units. The CD700II is the best CD player ever made, so i would definitely go with that.

hope this helped

tony

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

Then I am keeping my 700ii. Only worry was I heard from several people about Naks. Best, but you never know when they'll go bad and happens often. I bought a cd400 a few months ago and the unit came with a small defect (imperfect). I returned it and did not get it back for almost 3 months so I decided to buy from another place. ALso my PA8001 mono amp from Nak went bad in about 3 months. Other than that I love my Naks!

Don't worry, that CD-700II will treat you like gold, if you treat it the same! Good luck!

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

dyohn-

i was just stiing here wondering to myself what all the benefits of an external DAC in a head unit would be. Obviously a separation of the processing from the amplification portion of the system, but is there anything else. I.E. is there any benefit to a system like the one on the nak 700ii over a system like the sony cdx-c90 which was pre-amp only.

sure, if you want power without additional amps, an external dac would be the way to go for top sq. but if sq is the objective, one wouldn't typically use head unit high-level out.

any ideas?

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MECP certified, 5yrs experience, you probably otta listen bitch!!

The Nak systems with the outboard DAC modules do not have internal amplifiers. These head units produce a pure digital signal at a high sampling rate. This is sent via a digital cable to the external digital to analog converter (DAC) which is where the pre-amp is located. The advantage is by having more real estate (size) available, higher quality discrete components can be used instead of the normal high-density LSI chips and opamps. In a standard HU, the signal is read digitally off the CD, sent to a DAC chip inside the head to produce the analog signal, and in many cases amplifier chips also live there. These components must be very small to fit inside the singal DIN space, and the usual trade off for size and to limit heat production is sound quality. Another advantage is the DAC may be located very close to the power amplifiers, elimitaing possible noise induction into a long run of RCA cable carrying an analog signal. The only system I have ever heard or tested that comes close to the SQ from Nakamichi's systems is made by Linn (also using outboard DAC, actually a DAC integrated into the outboard amps) and is not available in the US.

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You really don't need one. The DAC converter in that thing is insanely beautiful. I love it, and the sound is crystal clear as you know!

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

uthink: Did you not read what DYohn said?

I think at this price point we're past "need." If you have the means, an external DAC can certainly make improvements, as DYohn wonderfully explained, subject to the law of diminishing returns.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

True, i just said the unit is great w/o an external thats all!

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

uthinkuknoaudio wrote:

True, i just said the unit is great w/o an external thats all!

What unit are you talking about? The CD700II (and the MB-100) are the only Nakamichi car audio systems currently offered with external DAC units. That's what this thread is about. Your CD-45Z has everything (including the 4-channel amp) incorporated into one chassis. A good HU, but not in the same class.

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I kno, i'm talking about the 700ii, but on a side note i love my head unit, as well as every nakamichi product I have ever owned. That is all.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

how come u guys are saying that nakamichi is an awesome head unit for sound but it looks like a factory unit that comes wiht the car. It looks very ugly.

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03 F150 on 24's
HU:Pioneer DVD5700
Frt:MC57
Subs:(12)S12L7
Amps:(3)KX2500.1's, MC-2004

AJRXtreme wrote:

how come u guys are saying that nakamichi is an awesome head unit for sound but it looks like a factory unit that comes wiht the car. It looks very ugly.

And that is entirely different from the way it sounds. Looks and sound quality have absolutely nothing to do with one another. I personally think Nakamichi (and Eclipse) head units are elegant and beautiful. I will use nothing else in my cars. If you want flashing lights, video screens and bling bling glitz, go for JVC, Pioneer, etc.

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YES, THATS WHY I LIKE IT AS WELL! I am not into flashy headunits that are screaming STEAL ME that is one of the reasons i am fond of Nakamichi. Seriously, who is desperate enough to steal something that looks like a stock unit? That flashy pioneer and kenwood stuff is begging to be stolen, as i have heard and seen then stolen before. Another plus for the nak! That is of course besides it's fantastic sound quality...

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

WOW never thought of it that way. That is actually very smart on the companies part to make them not as attractive.

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03 F150 on 24's
HU:Pioneer DVD5700
Frt:MC57
Subs:(12)S12L7
Amps:(3)KX2500.1's, MC-2004

Indeed, another thing in the pro list list of its qualities. Really i can't think of one in the con!

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

I heard that Eclipse units are useless for anyone who steals them since they have an ESN (not Electronic Serial Number, but Eclipse Security Network) even though they have an electronic serial number on every unit. He (or she) who steals one will realise that the unit is rendered useless once removed from a vehicle. Of course that does not help the person who lost it but something to thwart the educated thief. And I think the CD700ii HU from Nakamichi isn't ugly. Just simple and plain looking. In my eyes, it is beautiful (not jazzy or flashy) and in my eyes, real beauty need not be flashy, like a beautiful girl that does not need to wear a load of makeup. Again, thats just my opinion.

Very true, i think they look nice because i am a classic basic kind of guy for my head units and i like the standard kind of look.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

Ugly, take a look at the McIntosh, But it sounds incredible! Looks like a 1970's home reciever. Nak's sound great but will not play MP3's or CD-R's. (Not a fan of either but I get alot of demo materials and need to play them)The newest units might have been upgraded, don't think XM is available. Alpine has a bit more flash, more options and reasonable sound quality. Eclipse is the bridge between the sound quality of the Nak and the features of the Alpine. I have an Alpine CDA-7978 and have been happy with it. It will be replaced with an Eclipse next time around.

Don't forget all the flash and crap takes energy, generates heat and draws attention! Watch who was driving around with a LCD HU display in there dash. At night you can see them 200 feet away. Hope the alarm works! The Alpine OM says to increase sound quality turn off the display panel. (when you hit any of the buttons it returns for a few seconds. Why? the D/A convertors and other components have more power available and less heat to contend with.

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I never like MC Intosh head units, sure they have a interesting look to them, but i always have thought Nak sq was far better. Alpine doesn't even compare in the same league as Nakamichi either...

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

audiocableguy wrote:

don't think XM is available.

Nope. I have my XM receiver connected to the Aux inputs on my Nak MB-100. I mounted the XM remote on a stalk in my dash and it works great.

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