Printer Friendly Forum Posts - One thought on rear speakers

Although I have heard most people claim for serious SQ just buy front speakers and either have no rear sound or some smaller components for rear fill. Personally I cannot EVER see myself doing this for the simple reason that I see it as quite selfish. I go out in my car with a bunch of friends all the time to clubs and whatever and if I had to stick my friends in the back with the sub pounding through the seats while they were straining to hear the top end it would be awful. I guess it entirely depends on your useage. Whether you want to be the only person in the car to enjoy the music, or if you want a more surround feel that everyone can enjoy. Mine is an everyday car, and its not a big problem to fade the sound to the front when I'm the only person in it.

My dad has an X5 and did his system in true SQ style. When I'm in the back I tell him to turn it down or completely off because it sounds like shyte.

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Gotta agree with you tomos. I'm a sound quality guy but it also needs to be quality throughout the car. I've only got one ten and it still way overpowers my front components (which are good not great but nice) and my one 6x9 (the other was blown when i got the car, getting a new one soon). But I just don't see how good quality music can be made with two speakers. What about the midbass and some rear fill. If you go to a theater you don't see all the speakers in the front do you? No it's all around you. Now yes all the high end is directed to the front but the music is around you. That's just my opinion.

The serious problem with the theater analogy is that movies are ENCODED for surround sound. STEREO music is only 2-Channel.

I've had this discussion with a lot of people. If you are looking to please guests in the back of a car rear-fill makes sense.

If you only care about driver sound quality then, in my opinion, rear fill should be a minor priority. Put it in if you want to, some people like how it helps wrap the sound around your head.

BUT, realize that to have what others also consider a good SQ car you'll want to attenuate the rears so the front speakers get the vast majority of the sound.

I frequently advocate for front-speakers first. Rear-fill is fine, but I think it is a serious mistake to spend a lot of money on expensive 6x9's and giving them a lot of power. In my opinion the best SQ cars on a budget will place FIRST priority on the front stage. SECOND priority on sub bass, and LAST priority on rear-fill.

my 2c.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Yeah don't spend a ton of money on rear but I'm just talking about those that say you don't need rear speakers (or just don't worry about them). And even if you have stereo a rear sound is still nice to have. Also a big increase in car dvd players (and 5.1 surround) is good reason for that rear fill.

I think it just gets to me when people leap to saying 'NO! Don't buy rear speakers!' when in my experience its horrible in the back of cars with nothing but bass. But leaving being a passenger aside and speaking from a driver point of view - I would consider my fronts of high quality (Diamond Hex) they are installed properly at the supposedly perfect height but I still get the feeling there is a big space behind me when I am driving. I have had a set of components in the rear and I only have a small hatchback but I upgraded to larger 7x10's out of choice because I just think it sounded better. But as the topic suggests.. just an opinion.

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I have a surround system at home for film but prefer speakers in front of me for music (unless its a concert on DVD)

Odd..

There is something unique about being completely engulfed in sound in a metal box on wheels that is appealing.

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My rear seat passengers have the opposite problems. I currently have 2 Kenwood 6x9s running off an amp in the rear, and only the stock 5" dash speakers in the front. Im planning on getting some fronts when I get a 4 channel amp and get a good deal on some speakers. The sound up front from the back 6x9s is ok for my listining. But its quite loud to the people in the back. I realize this isnt the ideal setup, but its only temporary.

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I think the majority of people start with their car system with rear 6x9s (in the UK anyway, anyone care to comment on US?)
Back when I was at school everyone just bought a pair and stuck them on the back shelf and kept the stock fronts. The really cool people going for loud and proud had 2 sets on the back shelf (YIKES!) You see 6x9s when walking down the street through the back window of parked cars and there is a general newbie consensus that they are important..Just look at shops that sell them and how important they look

I think there is an elitist trend toward showing disapproval. Maybe the SQ perfectionists are just such geeks they simply don't have any friends to go in the back (joke!) All I ask to be taken from this thread is don't immediatly discourage rear for an everyday driver who has friends! I see it in almost every thread with someone who mentions 6x9s someone always says 'get rid & power the fronts'

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personally this is how i see it when it comes to front and rear staging:

when i went to a sq competition one of the judges said my front stage was terrible. i was like ok... hes like "you want it to sound like your listening to a symphony, with the sound coming from infront of you"

now if this schmuk had ever been to hear a real symphony play he'd know that the sound doesnt just come from the front.. it engulfs the listener all around putting you "in" the music and thats what im trying to achieve in my car with somewhat stock speaker positions

i really felt like telling him, if you want front staging go stand in front of your home stereo,

i always truely felt front staging wasnt meant for the car anyway for normal driving, but thats just my opinion...

thats one thing i hate about these sq comps these judges dont respect music anymore

but what it boils down to is that its all listener preference, if you like how you system sounds thats great, and thats how it should be, its your car, your the person that usually listens to it, and if your happy, thats all that matters. posted_image

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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp

As long as their is music emanating from somewhere in my car, and it can get as loud as I want, and sounds good, Thats enough for me.

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I think a lot of you are missing the fact that without some EQing and time correction you're going to cause some strange frequency response and phase problems with different musical sources playing the same frequencies on the same channel.

Wiseguy, you're right, at a symphony sound just doesn't come from the front. However, MOST of it does. What DOES come from the back is ambient noise reflection providing fill. In my opinion this is fine to replicate in a car. However, MOST cars with 6x9s I've seen do NOTHING TO ATTENUATE the rear speakers. This exaggerates any phase / frequency problems and detracts from your front stage.

This is kind of like the mp3 encoding bitrate topic to me in that it is FINE if you want to put in some $200 6x9s and amp them. I'm really happy for you if you like the sound.

HOWEVER, don't claim to have awesome sound quality, because most people in the car audio and home audio world will probably disagree with you.

How is saying, "Don't spend money on rear fill" elitist? That doesn't make any sense. Telling someone the best way to do something on a budget isn't being elitist. It is being smart and assigning monetary priority to areas of relative importance.

If trying to save some poor kid a bit of money when he asks about SQ is being "elitist," then fine, I guess I'm elitist.

btw. Maybe grown-ups don't care about how their passenger's sound is because all their friends have cars and they rarely have passengers. ;-) (joke right back at yah :-)

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Why do I care how it sounds in the back seat? I never sit there while driving, and when I am back there I don't care about what the music sounds like posted_image

.

Oh yeah, you guys need to keep this post on topic or it will derail very quickly. My opinion is that rear fill isn't needed but there is nothing wrong with having rear speakers.

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kfr01] wrote:

iseguy, you're right, at a symphony sound just doesn't come from the front. However, MOST of it does. What DOES come from the back is ambient noise reflection providing fill. In my opinion this is fine to replicate in a car. However, MOST cars with 6x9s I've seen do NOTHING TO ATTENUATE the rear speakers. This exaggerates any phase / frequency problems and detracts from your front stage.

sorry to be an ass posted_image ,i know that in real time it does all comes from the front and the rest is all reflected ambient noise, but thats besides the point i was trying to make

in a car it is impossible to achieve that with just a front stage unless your car is build like a symphony hall, but then again ppl are crazy in this world maybe someone hs done this, and i have yet to see it

im sorry guys what was this topic about again? rear speakers, lol i love how stuff gets off topic here,

ok ill shut up now

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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp

Time correction seems a bit of a gimick to me. I see it on all singing flashy light decks that can even download a map of your car speaker positions and set time correction accordingly. Being that sound travels at 300 meters/s means speakers 2 meters behind your head will produce sound that arrives 0.006 seconds late. Home cinema systems are sometimes set up with a microphone to check balance and timing but the rooms are a lot bigger than a car and that is probably necessary.

As for EQing I do fade my system a lot to the front or the image is pulled back. I can hear that quite obviously.

By elitist I'm comparing to the judges that wiseguy speaks of. I also think that a lot of people respect those judges and their wisdom filters through as advice to regular people. I wasn't talking about budget either, just people in general buying for their enjoyment (and perhaps others who will be sharing the car)

Yeah grown ups all probably do have their own cars, and kids too. If your back seats never get used and you're well into your audio they would have been replaced by a wall of subs anyway posted_image

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Hey, I'm totally with you. Rear-fill DONE RIGHT and ATTENUATED can turn a good SQ system into a great SQ system by giving it that symphony or concert feel.

However, most of the kids out there that love the 6x9s don't have this purpose in mind. They CRANK the 6x9s as loud as possible.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

How much reflection is there in a car anyway. Theres waves bouncin' all over the place! Off the windows, doors and off your head! I think its cheaper and easier to achieve ultimate SQ for you and all your passengers by putting some expensive headphones in a bunch of crash helmets and give them to your passengers. Perhaps a little dynamat in there too.

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tomos] wrote:

ow much reflection is there in a car anyway. Theres waves bouncin' all over the place! Off the windows, doors and off your head! I think its cheaper and easier to achieve ultimate SQ for you and all your passengers by putting some expensive headphones in a bunch of crash helmets and give them to your passengers. Perhaps a little dynamat in there too.

HAHA sounds good to me

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Clarion DXZ745MP
Kove ZX504
Kove AG1400
Kove 12" T3 Armageddon
Kove 6.5" Compaxials
WILDER 6.5" Pro-Audio Drivers
Custom Pre-amp

i also love my music but you have to learn to reach compromises

The problem is the accoustics of any car (metal box of non uniform shape with voids and baffles ie,footwells and seats) is going to influence what quality of sound you get.

the popular 6x9 speakers are actualy not going to give you highest quality sound anyway, because of their oval shape you can not reproduce the same quality of sound as a round speaker of the equivilent power/impedence (if you still require proof ask a sound studio audio engineer to test oval v round, round wins every time)

the mounting of speakers on a parcel shelf will not work well either due to the large viod below and so called accoustic shelves only help by dissipating some vibration.

possibly the best location for the mounting of any speaker is the doors, doors in general have a rigid structure small void and the ruber weather strip (door seal) gives good insulation from vibration.

so if you have a 4 door car and want rear speakers you have an easy solution not only is it going to provide you with rear infill it also means the rear passengers get the same range as you up front.

if you want concert performance get in your car and drive it to a concert.

also try this one for size, my car is a two seater so rear passenger volume/quality arguments are no longer valid the current set up is matched pairs front and rear, two in the front doors with the rear pair fitted securely into the side trim panels with a ring of rubber insulating them from direct contact with any metal.

I really think it depends on the system. I've heard both "true SQ" systems with just components up front and a sub in rear and SQ systems that incorporate rear fill. On bigger vehicles like sedans and wagons and suvs, rear fill may be needed (in MY opinion). On trucks and hatchbacks it may not be needed. Depends on who is listening what they are listening to.

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Duane...

If you think you're confused, imagine how you feel. posted_image

yep... I got 6 bys in the rear deck, but they are WAY less powered than the rest of the system... I can not "hear" them specifically, but there really something "missing" when I fade to the front. The soundstage also seems to fall to somewhere under the dash too... I think "surround" is a waste in the car, but rear fill is most definitely NOT. My '86 Civic never had rears, now that I have the '01, I can hear what I was missing in the old system.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

Here is my opinion on this, and that is only what I said, my opinion. I think that proper imaging is only hindered by rear speakers. I think that if a car is to be used for an everyday driver that carries people in the back seat then rear speakers are definatly nessasary. But when you are talking about a sq setup and proper imaging and soundstage, then rear speakers have no place in a proper setup. In my last car my 6 1/2 components were in kick pods that I remade half a dozen times before I got them pointed properly but once I was done I did quite well in competion and the sound was exactly what I was trying to achieve a wide soundstage that sounded like it was at the end of the hood and also sounded like the entire band was spread out infront of me with only ambient reflections comming from behind. I think the ultimate sq setup should not nessasarily reproduce what the music sounds like in a concert hall or theatre but actually what it sounds like in a recording studio, because thats where the original source came from, well in most cases. I never understood why people said it should sound like a concert when thats not what it was recorded as. And in a recording studio sounds come from very direct sources. The sound doesnt bounce all around, if the singer is dead center than it should also sound that way in your stereo, if the guitarist is off to the left than it should also sound that way. I think I have said enough on this subject now

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

it is all down to individual taste in music and what volume you feel comfortable with, the problem lies in the area of what to sacrifice either raw power or high quality. unfortunately it is not simply the case of putting high powered speakers in and running them at a lower volume to get high quality this just means that the driver is not operating in its full range.

so i think that in a lot of cases the general advice on what speakers to use is going to be irrelevant due to vehicle type shape and what kit is being used to drive the speakers.

i personaly think that people who play their music in cars so loud that you can hear it at some distance away actually have no idea about what the music they are playing should really sound like, i like my music loud (everything from heavy metal to classical) but there are thresholds where the sound volume overpowers the cubic capacity of the vehicle.i see them in my local car parks with it cranked up full volume and all it does is show how poor the quality of their set up is due to the accoustic quality of the metal box they are sat in. i would hope that the users of this forum care more about the quality of the music than how loud you can get it.

i also agree with Ravendarat but there is also an inherent problem with mass produced cd's in that the sound can not be reproduced from an ordinary cd in the way it was originaly recorded on to the studio master.mass production cd's are re-engineered so generaly the sound field you hear is generated by the equipment your listening to it on.

i try to listen to what the judge(s) say about my car after i get it judged. usually its just to add a little more lows because i didnt want to over do them, but its never about my staging. in my last car i had a 6 1/2" component set, 8" downfiring woofer and a 2" center channel for my front stage and a single 12" woofer in the rear. it was a 91 caprice classic with no rear fill so i dont think the size of the car matters. if you sat in it, you wouldnt believe that there werent any speakers in the rear. i miss that car. posted_image i see myself putting rear speakers in if i ever get into putting in a 5.1ch system; but thats not for a long while. right now im still playing around trying to tweak the front stage in this car the right way. its a pain but it will get there. on topic, rear speakers are your choice. personally i dont like them but soemone else might be different. they have their own audio prefrences.

I am *so* not into driving around with my windows down or having car park comps! The word 'travesty' was invented to describe the bad name music enthusiasts are given by idiots. Subs are SO cool, but not in the middle of town or outside a supermarket.

Thanks for everyones thoughts. As I said in the beginning, I am aiming for SQ but at the end of the day my car has too many uses to be stripped down to a mere front soundstage. For my own pleasure and others rear speakers are required. Amen

RIP rear speaker thread

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