Esoteric cables

I've been doing very high end installations (not necessarily car audio) for many years and have yet to actually hear or measure with very sensitive test equipment any difference between brands of cables, except for some signal losses in a few very inferior products.  None whatsoever.  It is all smoke and mirrors and, as the article states, in a true double-blind test there has never been any documented by measurement differences detectable by any reputable testing house.

If better quality cables made a noticable difference in your demo system I would suggest there was a problem with the original cabling or with the installation or setup.

There are two sides to this debate, obviously. I know what I heard. But in the interest of objectivity, I replaced the original Monster 401cables with new 401 cables, there was no difference. I then brought in one of our customers with a good ear to do some listening. He couldn't see what we were changing as our board wiring is out of sight from the room, so he wasn't aware of what component in the system was being changed. The only thing we changed was interconnects, sometimes actually switching, sometimes not. He could tell the difference in sound between the cables. When we were finished, he asked which amplifiers we were switching between. So again, I invite anyone who doubts the difference to come in and hear it for yourself.

04MDX4SQ wrote:

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Obviously osciiloscope readings will tell the whole story of the way something sounds, won't they? We are talking about subtle nuances and a difference in staging and imaging. I am speaking of an audible difference.  Like I said, I can hear a difference and so can true audiophiles.

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Oscilloscope readings will indeed tell the whole story about any changes to a signal being introduced by interconnects or any other component in the signal chain.  There is no way a cable can "improve" the sound of anything.  It is a conductor, plain and simple.  It can degrade the sound, certainly, through poor quality construction, bad connectors, corrosion and oxidation, high resistance, or poor shielding allowing noise to be introduced.  If the sound improved after changing your cables, the original ones were degrading the sound somehow.  Plain and simple physics.  I have tested in my lab everything from 49-cent RCA cables to $15000 so-called audiophile cables and 36 gage to 0 gage speaker wires, and can tell you there is no discernable "improvement" possible from cables, only introduced degredation from inferior products.  I run a lab that tests equipment all day every day for a living.

So what is your definition of "true audiophile?"  Someone who claims to hear the difference between your cables and therefor agrees with you?  I can introcude you to people who can claim to hear the difference between transistors, even though there is absolutely none, and they get it "right" 75% of the time.  They have learned to listen for certain characteristics to reinforce their pre-determined beliefs.  It is precisely what Rod calls "faith" more than any provable physical fact. 

Bottom line if you can "hear a difference" and like what you hear, then by all means use whatever makes you feel good.  I'll do the same, thanks.  But since you work for a retailer, I'll bet at least part of your motivation stems from that extra commission bump you can get from selling over-priced "audiophile" cables.

Not on comission, thanks.

DYohn,  You are contradicting yourself in the above statement regarding people who claim to hear the difference in transistors by listening for certain characteristics. If there are different characteristics that seperate the transistors, there is a difference, is there not?

I am just saying that I trust I heard a difference. I have never claimed that the cables improved the sound, only that the cables are an improvement over other cables. How can an oscilliscope show you depth of stage in a recording? Is it not possible that the human ear and it's perception pick up on nuances that a mechanical measuring device cannot? Could this "faith" in what Rod has to say not made up your mind for you? Could it be you don't hear a difference because you were told you wouldn't?

Nope, it's because in 31 years of working in this industry I have never been able to measure any improvement regarding cables unless the original source was deficient.  And the ears guys we have around the shop who claim that TI MosFETs are superiour in sound quality to those from Samsung or Hyundai are simply being biased against Korean suppliers.  The characteristic sound of a TI transister is not inherently "better" or "worse."  It is differrent.  Much like those who claim electrostatic loudspeakers are far superior to conventional drivers.  I disagree, and there is no measurable difference in teh output.  It is a matter of taste, not quality improvement.

Staging, clarity, presence, etc. are a function of the source material and the loudspeakers involved.  Cables cannot improve it, they can only allow what was already there to be evident where other cables may have masked it.

This is a fight I was trying to keep myself from getting into but I feel I must. Generally speaking you cant get better then your source, you can only get worse. By that I mean that if you have a poor recording to start with you cant improve that with good cables, you can only help keep it from getting worse so saying cables will improve your sound is unture, I just believe they can help keep your sound true. Plain and simple, the cables that are included in the box with a DVD player are sh*t and do hurt the sound. You cant tell me other wise and In the TRUE BLIND tests I have done I have been able to pick it out every time. Do I think there is an audible difference between the 40 dollar monster Audio cables and the 300 dollar monster cables, I doubt it, at least I doubt I can hear it and I generally think I have pretty good ears. Do I think Phsycoacoustics comes into play, ya probally. When a picture is painted by a salesman its hard to not hear the difference because you have alreay been told and preped to hear the difference. I do believe that there is advantages in the video side when it comes to shielding, as I have personally seen issues with RF noise being picked up by a lower quality cable where as replacing it with a higher end cable fixed this problem. I am not looking for a fight here and I am not saying who is right and who is wrong, I am just stating my personal opinions. An for the record, personally I dont really care what an ossciolascope (I know I spelled that wrong) shows for results because I dont spend time looking at one in my house, I spend time sitting in my chair and LISTENING to the music so if there is an audible difference to me, then thats what I am concerened about and that is what I am paying for, and that is what determins whether the money was well spent or not. Finally I love the line in that article about a cable needing break in time. Thats just too funny. I wonder  if that ever works.

haemphyst wrote:

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"I don't know how many of those guys it was gonna take to kick my a$$, but I knew how many they were gonna use!"

--Ron White, Blue Collar Comedy Tour

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Oh my gosh.  A great quote from an extremely funny "movie".  And Ron "Tater Salad" White was my favorite.

"My son, Tator tot."

And now I should probably read that article and get back on topic.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Well that was an interesting read.  And although I don't agree with everythign he says, I do agree with the conclusions.

04mdx4sq said: "Obviously osciiloscope readings will tell the whole story of the way something sounds, won't they? We are talking about subtle nuances and a difference in staging and imaging. I am speaking of an audible difference.  Like I said, I can hear a difference and so can true audiophiles."

I think you are giving way too much credit to the ear and not enough credit to the brain.  My boss does a lot of research on how we hear things, and I have learned a lot from him.  Our ears aren't as accurate as many would have you believe.  For instance, two sounds played within 3 miliseconds (and greater depending on the frequency) will sound like one sound.  They measure differently even by the Ociliscope, but sound the same to us.  So how can we hear these subtle differences that even the Ociliscopes and other test equipment can't measure?  I believe the differences heard in cables are almost always psychoacoustic.  Do they preceive to hear a difference?  Yes, I believe they do.  But it wasn't because there was a difference in the actual sound produced, but their brain told them to hear a difference and so they did.

I wonder how many of these people realize that those highly expensive speaker wires are being connected to some pretty cheap tinsel leads on the speakers.  Hmmm, maybe that would be a good marketing point for our new Arachnid spider when we finally get it into our equipment.  After all, they will have a lot less loss than terminals/tinsel leads.  Maybe platinum plating them would be a $500 upgrade. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Okay, you want proof, check out these white papers by Bruce Brisson.

https://www.mitcables.com/technology/wp.asp

haemphyst wrote:

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Damn, DYohn, are you EVER wrong man?!? LOL

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Often.  I've been married four times, as an example...

1) Yes, THX charges for their services, and there is a fee to use the logo.  To obtain THX certification a piece of equipment must pass significant performance testing to standards they established.  The lab is definately independent as you pay whether the gear passes or not... it is not in THX's interest to liscence their name to something that does not pass the requirements - THX has plenty of money and plenty of backing and does not need to "distinguish otherwise indistinguishable products."  THX certification is very tough in many cases, but it does not necessarily mean something is definately "better" than something else, only that it has been tested and certified to perform to certain requirements established by the lab and that the manufacturer has decided to pursue the cost of certification and lisencing.  That another piece of equipment is not THX certified only means that either it has not been tested (or perhaps it failed the tests, which happens a lot) or the manufacturer has not paid the lisencing fee to label it as certified.  There are many pieces of gear on the market that passed the THX tests but are not certified because the price was higher than the manufacturer wanted to pay, and many others that are out there after having failed the tests.

2) The current THX certification for cables is simply a set of standards to test that the signal is not degraded by the cable, that the cable has acceptable losses and RF shielding, that certain things like gold-plated connectors are used and properly marked, and that the cable construction is robust with good solder joints not crimps, etc.  The THX cable standard was developed at the urging of certain cable manufacturers and is mainly a marketting device for them.  They decided it was worth the money to pay THX to develop the standard and to pay for certification testing and the liscencing fee for the THX logo.  Again, the test does not indicate that THX branded cables are "better" than any other cable, only that they have been tested and the manufacturer pays the fees.  I would be willing to bet almost any well made cable on the market that uses the correct type of connectors can be THX certified...

kfr01] wrote:

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br>I'm not sure how you're awarded a "pioneering" patent when the word "pioneer" appears nowhere in the patent statutes. Last I learned, you either have a patent or you don't.

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Also, just because it is patented doesn't mean it is good.  It basically means that someone spent a great deal of money and no one contested it.  I suppose the best clue to whether a patent is good or not is whether other companies liscense that patent for their own use.  Although that isn't final as the patentee doesn't have to offer liscensing, or are wanting too much money.  But I'm sure if you saw some of the patents out there, you would know what I mean.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

/r7 said:

"This has all been based on lab environments, quiet and free of the noises heard on the street.if all these tests were conducted while driving your vehicles, i doubt there would even be a myth to talk about."

WELL SAID!

Dyon:

If you are such an A/V badass as you love to remind all of us, with your PHD and your 31 years of experience, blah, blah, blah...  Why do you spend your time on a little car audio web site, not a home audio site? Does it help your ego? Are you polishing your PHD as we speak?  :)

Jeffpaulus wrote:

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Dyon:

If you are such an A/V badass as you love to remind all of us, with your PHD and your 31 years of experience, blah, blah, blah...  Why do you spend your time on a little car audio web site, not a home audio site? Does it help your ego? Are you polishing your PHD as we speak?  :)

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This was just flatly uncalled for.  Who are you to say what someone else's hobbies should be and how they should spend their time?  What if DYohn LIKES car audio, which I know he does, why shouldn't he be able to share some of his knowledge and hang out where he chooses?  What if he enjoys HELPING people?  I know that's part of the reason I come here.  Both to learn and to help.  DYohn probably has rather little to learn here, so don't you think he's primarily here to help!?  He's helped me understand difficult issues and details that only experience and/or education can express countless times.

Would you rather we limit the board to only people without education and experience?  Experience and/or education both carry weight with me.  I simply don't have the tools (experience or educational background) to read Rod Elliot's post and fully understand it all.  Hearing an endorsement from someone WITH the tools, like DYohn, gives me a frame of reference and adds credibility to the article.  I frankly learn quite a bit every week from guys like DYohn, Hymphyst, Stevdart, Forbidden, Steven, and others.  I'm GLAD experienced and knowledgeable people participate as much as they do in this forum.  Their participation, combined with the overall maturity level this board usually maintains far exceeds that of many other boards out there full of people who don't actually know what they're talking about.

Anyway, think what you will about any other member of the board... but I, for one, am glad that some educated and experienced members choose to share their knowledge here.

Jeffpaulus wrote:

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Dyon:

If you are such an A/V badass as you love to remind all of us, with your PHD and your 31 years of experience, blah, blah, blah...  Why do you spend your time on a little car audio web site, not a home audio site? Does it help your ego? Are you polishing your PHD as we speak?  :)

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Hey thanks, I don't often think of myself as a badass these days.  And by the way, I DO hang out in a couple of other audio sites, but I come here everyday since I was asked to help moderate this one.

Jeffpaulus wrote:

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Dyon:

If you are such an A/V badass as you love to remind all of us, with your PHD and your 31 years of experience, blah, blah, blah...  Why do you spend your time on a little car audio web site, not a home audio site? Does it help your ego? Are you polishing your PHD as we speak?  :)

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That was totally uncalled for.  I never see Dyon brag about his PHD or experience as he doesn't have to.  And why are you taking unprovoked personal shots at a well respected member?  Why are you so threatened by the information he brings up here?  If you disagree, please bring factual scientific evidence of your position.  But making personal attacks doesn't help the topic, anyone in the topic, and only makes you look like a fool.  I really suggest you try another tactic.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Jeffpaulus wrote:

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Dyon:

If you are such an A/V badass as you love to remind all of us, with your PHD and your 31 years of experience, blah, blah, blah...  Why do you spend your time on a little car audio web site, not a home audio site? Does it help your ego? Are you polishing your PHD as we speak?  :)

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Easy now, as you have seen, and I am not the first to make a comment on this one, and also sure I won't be the last.

We are all on this site to share information and pass on interesting thoughts and ideas, not to brag on any degrees, experience levels, or any of the other qualifications that some of us have on this site

Alot of us are professionals and maintain that attitude on these posts, and try to steer from opinionated posts, but rather state facts that we have access to the "proof"

With that being said, I WILL make an opinionated post...... What you have done is a no-no on this website/forum, as you have seen with some of these responses. DYohn is one of the most highly respected participants on this site, and most of us look forward to going behind him and reading his posts and absorbing the valuable information that he brings to the table. As many of us can tell you, he doesn't brag on any degrees, though most of us know the extent, and therefore further value his contributions. As for reasoning for being here, some of us enjoy helping others and ourselves in learning the tricks and trades of car audio.

So before you jump in somebody's $hit  next time, please take the time to browse this site and understand that this isn't some high school messaging service, it is made up of about 75% of professionals in the industry.

Ravendarat wrote:

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That Holiday Inn Express line is absolutly money.

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I agree.  That did make me laugh.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

i find it so hilarious how things turn into such a pissing contest...  i mean we are talk about freakin wire here

if you want my opinion even though u guys might not... the concept of audiophile wire means nothing to me, its all nonsense, i really think its more of a ego thing - "my wire costs more than yours ha ha" blah blah blah its rediculous

 i still think copper wire is freakin copper wire

i had a talk with my father about this subject of copper wire and he reminded me that a few years ago, an lab experiment was conducted on blindfolded subjects to see if they could tell the difference between 'regular copper wire' and 'audiophile copper wire' as well as other wire and from what i hear the results were that the people could not. tell the difference... if i can find the article ill be sure to post it.

His personal choice is a pair of speaker wires that cost $13,000. "Anyone would have to have cloth ears not to tell the difference between cables," he said.

"In my professional opinion that's baloney," said Alan P. Kefauver, a classically trained musician and director of the Recording Arts and Sciences program at the Peabody Institute of Johns Hopkins University. "Has the wire been cryogenically frozen? Is it flat or round? It makes no difference, unless it makes you feel better." His choice for speaker wire? Good-quality 16-gauge zip wire.

https://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/12/circuits/articles/23down.html

Not the exact article but my thoughts exactly....