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2 amps install and crossover questions

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=46297
Printed Date: May 15, 2024 at 9:09 AM


Topic: 2 amps install and crossover questions

Posted By: dj002
Subject: 2 amps install and crossover questions
Date Posted: December 29, 2004 at 1:48 PM

Just about to do an install on my 2004 Sierra ext. cab and could really use some input. If there is anything I missed or if I am doing everything completely wrong please feel free to point me in the right direction. For starters I am swapping out the stock 94 amp alternator with a 145 amp one and I will be using 4awg wire for the alt wire and battery ground wire.

The equipment is as follows,
Deck – Kenwood KDC-MP919
Amps – 2 x Kenwood KAC-7201
Front door speakers – JBL GTO606c 6.5” with tweeter and passive crossover
Rear door speakers – JBL GTO6426 4”x 6”
Subs – 2 x JBL GT100 10” in a sealed box similar to this.

Now I have no intentions on entering this in any competitions but what I am hoping for is a one time install that will work for years to come. Each amp comes with a pair of 30a fuses so a 4awg wire from the batt with a 120a ANL fuse under the hood going into a AGU fuse splitter with a pair of 60a fuses and down to a 8awg wire. Each 8awg wire is going into a 1F capacitor and then into an amp. I have yet to buy the capacitors and was wondering if a single 1F would be good for the two amps?

Now this is where the majority of my questions are… the amps can run in Tri-Mode I was wondering if it would be better to say hook amp #1 in stereo to the front doors with the bridged tri-mode going to one of the subs and amp #2 in stereo to the rear doors with the bridged going to the other sub or using one amp bridged into 2ohms and pushing both subs with the other in stereo doing both sets of door speakers?

If I do use them in tri-mode it says that I must use coils & caps on the speakers. The 6.5” come with a passive crossover so would that work or would I still need to add a cap and or coil? The 4”x6” also have a cap built onto the speaker (4.7uf) would that work? Which size coils should I use on the 10” and would they be better inside the sub box as close to the speaker as I can get it or does it really matter?

Any help you can offer would be appreciated. Happy Holidays.



Replies:

Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 1:07 AM
Nix the stiffening capacitors.  You can add them at a later date if you want to.  I would run a mono class D amp for the subs and a four channel for the fronts/rears. The subs are each SVC 4 ohm that can be paired together, paralleled to 2 ohms.  One of the amps you have can run the fronts, and you could use deck power for the rears if the volume in the back isn't of great importance.   You're over-compicating this install that you want to last for years by using a pair of amps that are not suited for your purposes. 




Posted By: wheelerdr
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 2:42 AM
since you like kenwood amps i would buy a kenwood excelon kacx-811d 919 watts at 2 ohms this is a great amp

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Posted By: dj002
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 4:19 AM
Thanks for the input guys,

Stevdart, after some reading and your suggestion I will wait on the caps and instead put in an optima yellow top battery and go from there. As for the amps they were a present and actually bought on boxing day (you get so much more if you wait =) so I am trying to use them the best I can. The deck was installed a few months back with the factory speakers and sounds good except for the complete lack of bass. I know a class d amp would be much better suited but they are quite pricey and I do not really want to add another large amp to the electrical system. Is using the amp in tri-mode over complicating things? Which way would be easiest on the amps (heat/power consumption)? Thanks for your help.

Wheelerdr, that amp would probably fill the void nice but right now I am more interested in hooking up what I have the best I can as opposed to adding more… lol. But give me a few months and I may be singing a different tune.




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 7:20 AM

Look this info over from https://www.bcae1.com/trimodpd.htm.  The general guidelines you should follow when setting up amplifier power are:  use one amp for both subs;  allow the capability to adjust levels of volume for front-to-back speakers;  allow capability for each set of speakers to be crossed over at frequencies that you can adjust.  Although the amps were a gift, the combination of what you have to work with is not good.  You should want to have the subs running through a low pass filter, and the speakers going through a high pass filter.  When used with separate amps, you can use the filters on the amps.

The subs are each SVC 4 ohm, according to the link.  Is the enclosure a pre-made unit and pre-loaded?  If so, what do the specs tell you as far as connecting to an amp?  You have to get impedance right.  As far as power consumption, a class D for subs is more efficient than a stereo amp by about 50% and so would take less resources.  Consider swapping out one of the amps (rears would be with deck power), or both amps to use a 4-channel for the four speakers.  You asked for a one-time install.  I think your experimentations with powering tri-mode will cause you to want to change them because of your inability to adjust the system.





Posted By: uthinkuknoaudio
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 9:02 AM
I would check out JBL's four channel amps for your fronts and rears, and then get a monoblock amp by JBL for your woofers. JBL is a great company and will last you for years if you treat it right. I have had 2 10'' JBL subs powered by a BP600.1 and they have been crankin for 5 years now solid, no fluttering. JBL = good stuff and very budget.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.




Posted By: dj002
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 9:09 AM
I think I will try using one amp in stereo to the front speakers and mono the other in parallel for the subs. I think running the back speakers off of the rear out on the deck should be good and if I am not happy with the set up I will just add a class d and use the other amp for the rears. The deck does have 3 pre-outs and lots of adjustments so that would be much more user friendly. The speaker box has not yet been built, I did get a quote but I am waiting for the speakers to show up. It will be very similar to the link provided above but built to size for the speakers I have. Any suggestions there? I have very limited room so it seems the best option.
Thanks for the link (very informative) and the heads up on tri-mode. Using the decks built in crossover would be much better suited than a system that could not be tuned without major work… I just scored some 1awg wire for the power to the amps so if in the future I add another amp I should have all the juice I need, might be a good idea to run the extra set of RCA’s to the back while I have everything opened up so a class-d install would be really easy if I decided that I needed it. Do you think a Kenwood KAC-8101D would work well?




Posted By: uthinkuknoaudio
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 9:15 AM
That is a good idea as well. I'm sure the HU will provide sufficient power to the rear, since your fronts are the stage of your music. I'll check up on the kenwood amp.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 4:39 PM

dj002] wrote:

think I will try using one amp in stereo to the front speakers and mono the other in parallel for the subs.

Check your impedance doing that.  You have two 4 ohm SVC subs, so how are you going to wire them so that you will get a 4 ohm load to bridge to your amp????  If that were a way you could go, I would have suggested that over swapping out amps.  If you want to use that amp for the subs, you will have to connect each one to a channel and run them in 4 ohm stereo





Posted By: dj002
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 7:15 PM
Stevdart, well I guess I need to be told twice sometimes... I have decided to get a d class for the subs and use the pair of amps I have for the front and rears. Do you think the Kenwood KAC-8101D amp I linked to above would work well with the setup I have? Any ideas?





Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: December 30, 2004 at 9:00 PM
It would.  You'll have a nice setup there with all the crossovers and filters you'll need to fine tune the sound of the system.  Now take your time and do a super clean install and you've got a system that will perform comfortably for years.  Cheers.




Posted By: dj002
Date Posted: January 01, 2005 at 6:25 PM
Well I am glad that I waited as the amp was on sale =). Now that I have the equipment that I need hopefully you will not mind some questions on the wires.

I acquired some 1/0 awg wire from a friend along with some 4 awg phoenix gold wire so I was planning on using the 1/0 to run from the battery under the truck and up through the floor of the cab to a distribution block which will break it down to three 4awg wires which will then run to each amp. Now if the power wire is fused just off the battery and the amps are all fused is there any advantage to using a fused distribution block or would a regular one be fine? Do you think a 1F cap might be needed with the extra amp?

For the ground I have seen a nice unused bolt hole in the frame of the truck just below where the amps will be so a little grinding down and a stainless bolt with the 1/0 wire to a distribution block. The battery in the truck used what look to be 8awg for a ground so I scored a nice pre-made 3/0 ground cable (from a tow motor) and replaced it. I would have used the 3/0 for everything but I didn’t have much luck finding nice ends and fuse holders for it, all the car audio stuff seems to max out at 1/0.

Now some more crossover questions, the deck has a built in crossover for front/rear/subs with RCA outs for each so should I turn the filters off on the amps or set them also? I was planning on using one KAC7201 for the 6.5s in stereo at 4ohm another KAC7201 in stereo at 4ohms for the 4x6s and the KAC8101D to the subs in parallel at 2ohms. Any recommendations on wire size for the speakers? What is the thickest size that I could reasonable use?

Happy New Year, and many thanks for the help!




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: January 01, 2005 at 11:34 PM

I was planning on using the 1/0 to run from the battery under the truck and up through the floor of the cab

You MUST run the wiring through the firewall...out of the vehicle is a big no-no.

distribution block which will break it down to three 4awg wires

8 gauge will be more than sufficient for any one of those amps, especially using short runs and considering the light loads you will be using.  You'll have far more choices of distro blocks with 8 ga. out.

is there any advantage to using a fused distribution block or would a regular one be fine?

The fuses in the distros are there to protect the outgoing wires, not the amplifiers.  The amps should have their own fuses.  Fuse the wires according to gauge just the way you fuse the main power wire at the battery.

Do you think a 1F cap might be needed with the extra amp?

No, leave that bit of nonsense out of your install.  If you are criticized for omitting a cap, tell the offending party to see me about it  ;)

a nice pre-made 3/0 ground cable

Won't hurt a thing, as long as you have the means to securely crimp a ring terminal to wire that big.  I have an old (100 years!) pair of bolt cutters.  The jaws are all gnarled and pitted and the thing isn't much good for cutting bolts anymore.  But it makes one hell of a crimper for the fat stuff!

should I turn the filters off on the amps or set them also?

I would use the amp settings and leave the deck settings on flat.  You could do either, and as you get this set up you will be able to decide which would work best.  The settings, though, aren't such that you would want to (or allow another driver or passenger to) change them after the system is set up.  You are setting limits to frequencies sent to each pair of speakers and will fine tune them to the Hz.  Someone (or you) fiddles with the deck controls and you have to go back to the beginning.  Set them at the amps and chances are they will remain set.  But keep in mind that only one or the other deck or amp filters should be used, not both.

wire size for the speakers

16 guage will be suitable for all your applications.  The thickest wire you could use would be that which would fit nicely onto or into the speaker terminals.  You don't want to use a fat wire and end up with only 3/4 of it squeezed into a terminal. 

Good luck with it. 





Posted By: dj002
Date Posted: January 03, 2005 at 1:36 PM
lol, forgive me for rambling on there... and if it was a test you passed with flying colours.

If you are criticized for omitting a cap, tell the offending party to see me about it ;)

That went over very well..lol. Glad to see you have a good sense of humor, eh! If you ever make it up to Toronto be sure to drop a line and maybe I can help you out as your posts have saved me many headaches...

So after taking a big deep breath I will talk about only 1 wire, the power. Seeing that 40’ of 1/0 awg & 20’ of 4awg was dropped off for free today I plan to use that. The 3 amps have a total of 160a in fuses so I was planning to use a 150a fuse just off the battery and running the 1/0 to the back of the truck through the firewall and under the door sills (just wondering the logic behind not running it under the truck?) and using a 1/0 to 4 distribution block. The 4awg is rated at 150a so the fuse under the hood should be enough to protect all the wires up to the amps right?

Before I started this I actually though I knew what I was doing…




Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: January 03, 2005 at 9:56 PM

I will surely do that if I ever get up that way, dj!  You hit the lottery with all that valuable wire dropping in, too.  The 150 amp fuse at the battery will be sufficient to allow power to the amps and protects the main power wire.  But when the wire size is reduced (at the distro block), separate fuses must be installed in the smaller wires at the block.  (If you have a fused distro block the fuses you place in the block are for this purpose.)  These fuses protect the individual amp feed wires.  Their purpose is separate from the fuses in the amps themselves.  See https://www.bcae1.com/fuses.htm for a detailed pictorial explanation of why all the power wires have to be fused. 

And that will also explain why it is dangerous to run a car audio system power wire on the outside of the vehicle.  It's just that you want to protect the wire as well as you can and so you wouldn't run it in locations that the engineers of the vehicle would not run high amperage power wiring if they were designing it.  They wouldn't allow such a wire to be exposed to the outside for fear of the possibility of snagging, bruising, etc.  Considering safety of vehicle occupants as priority, route the wire where it will get no contact, rubbing, dangling loops, and all that.  If run under the truck, it should be through a  metal conduit that is clamped to the body securely in several places.






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