DVC vs. SVC

Basically a with SVC you can run 2 bridged on a mono amp,if you have the space! If not, you can run 1 DVC,which will make the amp think it is 2 subs instead of 1!So it still gives out the power of running 2 subs.

Or another advantage it you can run mutiple DVC subs and wire it to think its only running 2. Say 4 DVC's will run like 2 SVC's wired in parallel.

Or if you amp will only take on SVC bridged,you can wire 2 DVC subs to make the amp think it is only running 1 SVC.

Simplist way i can explain it.There are alot of advantages and disadvantages.Here is a link to help better explian it!

https://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/spkrmlti.htm

Whatever you get you'd better be sure of the DVC's ohm ratings.  Some companies make them in all different sizes like dual 4 ohm, dual 2 ohm, or dual 3 ohm.  This will make a difference to the amp's power output.  Could make it hard to wire down to a low enough load without being too low.

You have to remember, two equal voice coils rated at the same ohm loads when wired in series or end to end, makes twice as much resistance.  Two equal voice coils of the same ohm rating wired in parallel equals a total that is only 1/2 of one of the voice coils alone(example -- 4 ohm and 4 ohm in parallel is 2 ohms total).

Chopndroptx wrote:

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Basically a with SVC you can run 2 bridged on a mono amp,if you have the space! If not, you can run 1 DVC,which will make the amp think it is 2 subs instead of 1!So it still gives out the power of running 2 subs.

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Just a quick correction here.  Mono amps can't be bridged.  There's only one channel.

Normally this language technicality wouldn't be a problem, but I don't want folks to think mono and 2 channel bridgable amplifiers work exactly the same way.

All but a very select few 2-channel amplifiers are NOT stable at less than 4-ohms bridged.  This is very important to remember when selecting amplifiers.  That D5 600.2 has a MINIMUM impedence of 4-ohms when bridged.  2-ohms is probably not stable.  1-ohm is _certainly_ not stable.  NONE of diamond's 2 channel amplifiers recommend less than a 4-ohm load bridged - even the D7 series.

Also, this 'making the amp think it is 2 subs instead of 1' business is confusing.  The amplifier never cares about the number of subs.  It cares about the final impedence load.  You could load a dozen woofers to the same amplifier.  It doesn't care as long as the impedence load is within its stable region.

Again, I'm not trying to be too picky here, but there are a lot of different subwoofer configurations.  DVC 2-ohm, 4, 6-ohm, 8, SVC 2-ohm, 4, 6, 8, and more.  To talk in terms of 'think 1 sub' confuses the issue and could cause someone else to get it wrong.

Edit:  audeogod beat me to some of this... good post. :-)

I stand corrected again then, the 1200.1 will not work because it is a mono amplifier?

Ok my bad! LOL

Should have been a little more specific i admit! But not knowing sinistars experence with Ohms and amps,i tried to make it as simple as i could. Which was actually for some reason harder for me.Im tierd!

Thanks for the corrections!

sinistar wrote:

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I stand corrected again then, the 1200.1 will not work because it is a mono amplifier?

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Exactly the opposite.  :-)

The 1200.1 WILL WORK because it is a mono 1-ohm stable amplifier.  The 600.2 WOULD NOT WORK at 1-ohm bridged as it is a 2-channel amplifier only stable at 4-ohms bridged.

sinistar wrote:

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Right, got the parallel and series. So what I gather is that 2-10"DVC 4 ohm paralleled to 1 Ohm will run better than 2-10"SVC  4 Ohm paralleled to 2 Ohm bridged. I know the Eclipses are dual 4 Ohm or single 4 Ohm.  either way, the 1200.1 will work, just a question of running it harder with the SVC setup. Correct me if I'm wrong. Nothing is easy I tell ya, couldn't just find the DVC for the same price.

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A few corrections:

1)  You should stop using the word "bridged" unless you're talking about bridging two channels of a multi-channel amplifier.  Drivers are not bridged.  It is incorrect to say so.

2)  There are two differences between running at 1-ohm and 2-ohms with that amplifier (and most amps).  First, you'll get almost double the power.  Unless you plan to compete, the difference between 600 watts and 1200 watts doesn't make much of a practical increase in SPL.  You gain 3db for each doubling in power.  3db is small to our ears.  10db is a doubling of volume and would take 6,000 watts.  Secondly, dropping to 1-ohm increases distortion.  This is a negative.  The amplifier actually runs "harder" at 1-ohm than 2.

So you see, 2-ohms isn't the end of the world if you aren't competing.  It may actually sound better.

OH, one more thing.  Just because an amp is stable to really low impedances doesn't mean that you have to squeeze every drop of juice out of it.  I personally would prefer using an amp that delivers the amount of power you desire at a higher ohm load.  That way the amp runs cooler and will last a lot longer.  You can get 1200 watts into 1 ohm, but why when you might be able to have it at 2 or 4 ohms??  Then you can use subs that can be wired into 4 ohm total ohm load configurations like dual 4 ohm DVC's with coils on each sub in series(8 ohms) and then each sub in parallel for 4 ohms total. 

Only drawback here is that the cost would increase quite a bit. 

I know under-powering will cause damage over time and am keeping that in mind when choosing my subs. I've got it now, the 1200.1 will work better at the 2 Ohm load, than the 1 Ohm load like audeogod said which is good. The SW8102.4's are on sale for $200 a piece and looks like a good way to go. Rated at 500W RMS. The new T1's are rated at 600W too which is an option for me and can readily get DVC with those, but probably a much less frequency range. Again, I appreciate all the help. I trust asking questions here compared to almost ANY stereo store as it is scary how little most know compared to what they think they know.

Chopndroptx wrote:

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Also take in consideration the RMS wattage of each sub and the RMS your putting out total.Sometimes not enough power can do damage too! Just a thought!

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Actually that is totally wrong and quite bad misinformation to be spreading.  Low power cannot hurt speakers.  AGAIN... LOW POWER CANNOT HURT SPEAKERS.

In the approximate words of the author of the excellent site https://www.bcae1.com/ :  "underpowering doesn't harm speakers - idiots that clip amplifiers harm speakers."  I'd say it slightly more friendly than that, but you get the point.  CLIPPING harms speakers.  Low power does not.

In no situation will running a speaker below RMS harm the speaker if you are not clipping the amplifier. 

Again, not trying to pick on you, just making corrections so others aren't confused.  :-)

sinistar wrote:

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I know under-powering will cause damage over time

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Stop the madness.  This is simply wrong.

See my long post here on this issue:  https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=48102&PN=1

So your telling me running a 1000w Rms quality sub with only a 100 watt amp is good for it?

Not trying to start anything,but doesnt sound correct to me.

Seems distortion would come into play,if you are not very exprienced and try to crank the amp all the way(not to mention people who ride with the bass all the way up and treble all the way down),which would cause distortion,which is not good for any speaker/sub.

Chopndroptx wrote:

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So your telling me running a 1000w Rms quality sub with only a 100 watt amp is good for it?  Not trying to start anything,but doesnt sound correct to me.

Seems distortion would come into play,if you are not very exprienced and try to crank the amp all the way(not to mention people who ride with the bass all the way up and treble all the way down),which would cause distortion,which is not good for any speaker/sub.

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https://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

Here's the page.  Then remember to read my long post from that other topic.

Then I'll say, yes, that is what I'm telling you.  In fact, 10 watts to that sub wouldn't hurt it.  In fact, 10 watts to an Adire Brahma 15" will sound just fine if you never plan to listen past 95db or so.

Amplifiers don't introduce distortion at low volume levels.  Exactly the opposite.  More distortion is introduced the more power is output.

UNLESS some idiot is clipping the amp hard because didn't set his gains right, cranks the volume past where he should, or do that crap with the bass control. 

I assume most of the people on this board aren't idiots.  Clipping shouldn't be a problem.  If clipping isn't a problem then underpowering will NEVER harm a speaker.

I'm very right on this, btw.  ;-)

Agian not saying your wrong! Sure you could run 50 watts clean power all day and not have a problem.But what im trying to say is most people try to get more power out of a smaller amp which will cause distortion.Not even clipping.

If you have the power,you are less likely to try to over push certian levels of adjustment.

Just my opinion maybe!

I assume most of the people on this board aren't idiots.  Clipping shouldn't be a problem.  If clipping isn't a problem then underpowering will NEVER harm a speaker.

They may not be idiots,some may be new to car audio,and not understand clipping and distortion though!

I see your point and agree with your opinion.  People push power past where they should.  Ok, I'll buy that.  People do dumb things, most while trying to impress friends or girls .  I also agree that distortion is introduced quite fast pre-clipping if the user is pushing the amplifier past its rated limit.

Please see that I'm just trying to keep our newbie friends from believing things like what sinstar said, "I know under-powering will cause damage over time."

Instead of saying, 'under powering can hurt speakers too,' better and more accurate advice would be 'if you are a volume addict remember to match RMS ratings or you might push the amplifier too hard.'

I'm sure you'll agree, however, that the practical difference for daily listening between a 400 watt amp and a 1200 watt amp is really quite small.  If you push an amplifier to high levels of distortion on a 400w amplifier you're very likely to do the same on the 1200 watt amplifier.  There's only a 5db MAX SPL difference between the two!

Edit:  Also, thanks for batting this around with me.  Usually I make a long-winded post and then don't get a response.  I learn better too when I have someone to actively argue / discuss issues with me.  :-)   You'll make a good addition to this board!

Thank You! It was fun butting heads with you!

I deal with people that try getting more than what an amp is suppose do everyday.Its tricky to explain sometimes!

I do agree with you,i just wanted to get both sides out! So hopefully people will understand a little better.

Can I jump in?  The "underpower" myth is one of my pet peeves and it does my old heart good to see the fine people of the forum defending the truth!  I have and do run 300+ watt RMS rated subwoofers on 100 watt amlifiers ALL DAY and yes, it is GOOD for the woofer and for the amplifier as they both sing along quite nicely without getting near any dangerous over-load conditions.  I say that unless you are competing (where all rules are out the window anyway) ALWAYS use less power that a loudspeaker's continuous rating if you want the system to last a long time!

Now, the original question on this thread had to do with performance differences between SVC and DVC woofers and the ever-present question of which is "better."  The truth is it makes absolutely NO difference.  Two woofers of the same type that are available as both SVC and as DVC will NOT perform differently from each other.  The reason for offering both is simple hook-up flexibility.  One should choose their amplifier and loudspeaker system together and match them for the desired performance.  Having multiple impedence ratings avaialble within a loudspeaker line simply makes it easier to match the loudspeakers to a wider array of amplifiers and to a wider array of uses.  That's it.

So it's a marketing ploy more or less.  I should have seen it right off the bat.  So it's like, "Hey we don't have the exact kind of thing that would just hook straight up to that amp you got and be fine.......so we do got this other one over here that if you wire it this way instead of that way, it'll do the same thing.  BUT, it costs more cuz it's a DVC.".

That way, they can sell more stuff to more people without having to have a huge inventory.  Somewhere in there, I knew money was at the bottom of it all.  It always is.

Well yes, marketing certainly is involved, but there are several legit reasons for offering both SVC and DVC woofers.  For example, using multiple drivers to build the proper loading for an amplifier, using stereo amps to drive a mono load, etc.

Marketing is the only reason for things like advertising peak power numbers instead of actual ratings, for advertising magnet weight (which means next to nothing) and using chrome-plated or odd-shaped baskets and magnet assemblies, for putting logos on woofer cones and making them red or blue or orange, for advertising sound pressure levels (i.e.: noise) instead of musicality, for hiding T/S parameters, for using plexiglass or neon lights in enclosures or multiple chrome plated ports, for purchasing old respected brand names like Phase Linear or Dual or for making up vaguely German-sounding brand names and slapping them on cheap flea-market level gear, etc. etc. etc.  Audio, like all things commercial, is split into two main camps: those manufacturers who genuinely care about sound and build quality and those who are only in it to make a buck.

audeogod wrote:

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Well, like I said part of getting as much out of my system as possible to me means longetivity of my equipment's lifespan.  I like higher ohm loads.  Not up to 8 or anything, but 4 and occasionally 2 ohms. 

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So stick with the SVC and the 2 Ohm load for a longer lasting system pretty much? I just thought the higher end amps like Diamond Audio were built for the 1Ohm stability with the 4 Ohm DVC setup. Like how much of a span are we talking about for the life of the amp? The whole time I was looking the sales guy was telling me thats what I should get. 4 Ohm DVC. I was also looking at the new RF T1's as an option, but think I should stick with what I know is proven to be a quality good sounding subs that will last when treated right.

Well what I mean is that if you have a choice of how to run the amp, either at say 4 ohms or 2 ohms, I'd choose 4 ohms. 

That's not to say that I would go with 4 ohms and sacrifice the power I would have gotten at 2 ohms.  I would just get an amp to start with that would deliver that same power at a 4 ohm load instead of a smaller amp that can only deliver that power when you drop it down to 2 ohms, and only half that power at 4 ohms.

I don't like pushing my equipment to the very brink of what it can take before giving out.  It's like you don't drive your car with the tach always redlining.  Yeah the tach says the engine can run up to 7000 RPM's, but you drive at about 2-3000 most of the time.  If you drove it with the engine wound up like a rubber band then it would give out in no time with worn out bearings and maybe throw a rod too.  Instead, we drive more easily and the engine(with luck) will get you to 100,000 miles before the first tuneup is due.

That's how I feel about my amps and subs.  I know they've got more to give, but I don't ask for it cause I chose an amp that would do what I wanted without having to try so hard. 

I once heard someone say electronic devices hate heat.  If you run the amp at a 2 or 1 ohm load just because you can do it, then you have more heat than you would at a 4 ohm load.  Excessive heat will wear it out faster.

However, if you are on a tight budget and cannot afford to get the larger amps that will perform at 4 ohms, then you can go with the smaller sized ones and wire to drop it down to 2 or 1 ohm to get the power that you want(so long as the amp says it can do it).  And it might even last for years, but how long for sure, we don't know.  Could even depend on where you live.  If you live where it's always hot and the average temperature is in the 80-90 range, then the amp back there in your trunk is going to get a lot hotter and stay that way longer than it would if you lived up north and the temperature was in the 70's and for only about 6-8 months of the year.  Can also depend on how long at a time you play it.  If your like me and it can run for as much as 30 minutes nonstop EVERY TIME IT'S ON AND EVERY SINGLE DAY, and anywhere from 1-4 hours at a time at least twice a month on road trips, then I like having the knowledge that my amp isn't back there "takin' one for the team" so to speak.  It has no trouble at all doing what I ask, no matter what the outside temperature, or no matter how long it's on, and I know it will keep on doing that cause it's been doing it for 3 years straight.  I'd say I put about 40 hours a month on my stereo.  It gets played on average for more than an hour a day, cumulatively that is.

That may not even be a lot of time for some people.  I just feel that I listen to it more than average and I want it to last a little longer than average.  Many only listen to the stereo on their way to and from work.  15-20 minutes one way.  Less than an hour a day.  There have been times that I have played with my stereo for a solid hour AFTER I got home from work, not even counting the drive home.  Or I get in and go driving around for 2 hours just listening and driving.  I do this a lot.  I can cycle through 2-3 whole CD's in that time.  If my amp was back there running red hot, I feel it would have given out long before now.

Sorry I ran on so long.  I wanted to be understood but not confuse you into thinking that it will not last long if you wire for lower ohm loads.  Just that it can possibly last "longer" if it's wired concervingly.  It's just something to think about.

Audeogod, I appreciate the lengthy explanation. I myself do not use my car for daily commutes. I have a van with all my equipment that is used. Just to give you an idea of how little I truly drive and use my car, its a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant that I bought new and I have a whopping 18k miles on it. This is the 3rd system in it since I got it. I have had nothing but problems with each one and am really trying to do the best setup for the money. Like I said, I already have the DA 1200.1 and don't want to go through the hassle of buying a different or another one. If this system turns out to actually sound good, shoot I may stick with it for a couple years which would be less use than most put on in a year or so.

I don't think I could have made a sound decision without all the help on this site. It has all been much appreciated and I'm glad I could post a topic that took off like it did and let some of the pro's flex their brain muscles. I couldn't be more stoked right now about the whole deal and can't wait til it comes together. So many people helped and its nice to see everyone chip in with their opinions and knowledge. thanks again.

Ok, if you already have the amp(didn't know that) then you can wire it to go as low as it says it will handle(1 or 2 ohms) and it will be fine.  Like I said, it might have even lasted for years being played the way I play it.  I just personally don't like to do it cause I use mine a lot!  But since you hardly use it(18K miles is low for all that time), then it should never get overly hot.